Spela issue SE

[L&L-Jan]

I feel casinos use one small change in infos as a cheap eacuse to allow problem gamblers that ban themself on Gamestop to gamble.

I don't think so. You sign-up with gamstop with the details you use to sign up at a casino. Why would you use different details all of a sudden and then put the blame on the casinos? Also, it is not 1 small change, you need to change a bit more.

 

[TravellingRecluse]

Great post @TravellingRecluse.

Like yourself I’ve put further measures in place, but when you relapse it’s a mission of self destruction, it’s just very galling that there’s a really lack of care with many bookmakers. I’ve found Premier Punt and Karamba to be the two very worst.

There of course will be the arguement for accountability but the sooner these people realise this is an illness similar to drug abuse or alcohol abuse the better. People are losing their lives over this, people are losing their homes over this, yet in the midst of an addiction you change a detail and you’ve got opportunity to gamble your last penny away?

These companies don’t have a social conscious, they have to copy and paste a wee bit on their website and then employ smug live chat advisors to tell you how horrible a person you are for changing a detail to register.

Sorry, you’ve triggered me here a bit, but these scenarios often aren’t sob stories, this is a much bigger issue.

I could see a resistance from the operator if people are/will provide fraudulent details in the hope of making a quick quid and then running but that’s not how compulsive gamblers work.

I have one active case against one of the very biggest players where I was up over £1500 within 2/3 days of opening the account.

Normal people would stop there, did I? Not a chance, before I finally saw the light about 2/3 days after that I was then down £450 ish. All at Minimal stakes chasing that elusive dream.

That “investigation” has been going on over month now and not a single update. I was already self excluded from said casino before GamStop was even a think and I still got verified. Madness

 

[AR1886]

I don't think so. You sign-up with gamstop with the details you use to sign up at a casino. Why would you use different details all of a sudden and then put the blame on the casinos? Also, it is not 1 small change, you need to change a bit more.

That’s been made pretty clear, it isn’t a rational way of thinking. Sparking from my own personal experience it’s chasing a bet - there wasn’t ONE occasion where I won and was paid any more than my deposits back, I don’t have to ask you how many times I got my deposits back when I lost...

 

[TravellingRecluse]

I don't think so. You sign-up with gamstop with the details you use to sign up at a casino. Why would you use different details all of a sudden and then put the blame on the casinos? Also, it is not 1 small change, you need to change a bit more.

Hi.

I’m not sure which casino and or group you represent but based on my experience some are FAR more effective at stopping GS registered people than others.

They either care more about reputation and social responsibility and/or they have better and more reliable systems.

Some places have that DILLIGAF approach and that is clear to see.

 

[TravellingRecluse]

I tell you an idea that may cut out such lapse Responsible Gaming controls or ethics.

Suspend licenses for a given period. Most of these companies are above and beyond the financial penalties they receive when they fall foul of the UKGC.

If you suspend a license for say 12 months instead then they can’t generate any income then they may think twice about being so laid back about it in the first place.

It’s not just the gambling industry and I acknowledge that there are many operators out there that go above and beyond their obligations and they should be applauded.

There are also many companies such as Tesco cooking the books, HSBC knowingly laundering Mexican cartel money and they get away with it. A billion fine here or there will do nothing to stop them.

It’s a fact that some of these companies are too big to fail unless someone actually puts a stop to their business practice full stop

 

[Nordog]

I don't think so. You sign-up with gamstop with the details you use to sign up at a casino. Why would you use different details all of a sudden and then put the blame on the casinos? Also, it is not 1 small change, you need to change a bit more.

Sure. If i didnt read posts here where people could sign up cause they put a middle name, another email adress or some other simgle different info i agree. But as a system itself the way its implemented and used, its not working.

The way sweden use bank id to not only verify accounts, but also allow problem gamblers to exclude themselfs is a solid system. Why the rest of europe ( world) havent already implemented systems like that i cant understand. Not only for the sake of gambling but everything else. It allows for everything to be done quickly on your own pc. ( loan, papers, permits, tax +++)

 

[TravellingRecluse]

Sure. If i didnt read posts here where people could sign up cause they put a middle name, another email adress or some other simgle different info i agree. But as a system itself the way its implemented and used, its not working.

The way sweden use bank id to not only verify accounts, but also allow problem gamblers to exclude themselfs is a solid system. Why the rest of europe ( world) havent already implemented systems like that i cant understand. Not only for the sake of gambling but everything else. It allows for everything to be done quickly on your own pc. ( loan, papers, permits, tax +++)

Probably why Scandinavia is a happier and more affluent place to live than most of Europe bar Switzerland.

In this country it’s sll about making s fast buck and it does not matter at whose expense it comes

 

[AR1886]

Sure. If i didnt read posts here where people could sign up cause they put a middle name, another email adress or some other simgle different info i agree. But as a system itself the way its implemented and used, its not working.

The way sweden use bank id to not only verify accounts, but also allow problem gamblers to exclude themselfs is a solid system. Why the rest of europe ( world) havent already implemented systems like that i cant understand. Not only for the sake of gambling but everything else. It allows for everything to be done quickly on your own pc. ( loan, papers, permits, tax +++)

The likes of Premier Punt staying they need all details to match is as good an example as I can see of there being little desire to be more stringent.

The power all sits with the casino.

 

[Bloatgoat]

If the bookmakers would verify accounts before deposits then these issues would almost disappear I reckon.

This. A million times. Any respected casino in the EU is asking for verification before you can go in. Why does the whole online market believes they are an exclusion on the rest? It's a well proven model and it will help alot of people.

But no, they know damn well. Their only interest is money.

 

[Slottery]

The way sweden use bank id to not only verify accounts, but also allow problem gamblers to exclude themselfs is a solid system. Why the rest of europe ( world) havent already implemented systems like that i cant understand. Not only for the sake of gambling but everything else. It allows for everything to be done quickly on your own pc. ( loan, papers, permits, tax +++)

If UK would have such a strong identification like in Sweden or some other countries, that would solve this problem for good, but unfortunately in UK such a number don't exist, for many places it would help to recognize all people and like in self-exclusions and other kind of issues it's very strong tool you can't get over if you don't really steal identity of somebody else.

On other hand, i'm not really sure if i would like to have Swedish bank id (or personal id or how ever it should be called) where all your information is available for everybody who just is interested about it. That makes casinos SOW etc... processes much easier for Sweds as you already have access to people income information (what is declared income every year, what taxes is paid, how much you in total own everything etc...), all court cases, if people have received social warfare, if you have been divorced, with who you're living, how many pets, cars etc... registered to that address and much more....

I would rather be without making all of my personal information public like it's decided to do in Sweden which might be one of most protected and transparent country for people, personally wouldn't really feel comfortable with that extended care government is providing without asking. And same way online casinos and many other businesses have all this information without need to complete so many documents or other requests about your income, address, wealthiness as they have it already.

That's bit off topic, but yes, bank id is very strong and would work out if it would exist everywhere, but as personal opinion, i say not thanks for that for me and think if tried to implement similar system, especially some countries would have bigger part of people would never like that idea to be identified everywhere by one number.

 

[Nordog]

Its actually not like you can go and check everything if you have the person id of a person. Its still several grades of access. Bank id itself is just an online id. If i want to fix my taxes, i will have to log on with bank id to that page, but if you go to their office in person you would still need to identify yourself. So its nothing more then a digital ID card. Most nations have an id number on people anyway, so i disagree with bank id to expose anything a normal id hides.

 

[Slottery]

But no, they know damn well. Their only interest is money.

That's quite common that as a business, main interest is make profit to owners. Still don't see that big majority of casinos would try to target problem gamblers and how that would happen.

Most complete their basic checks online against data base as there is no possiblity to make in face to face and ask id when somebody login in. If you are over 18 and pass check, you are able to play. As well like many other online services, Amazon don't ask you to verify your self and make backround checks if you are shopaholic or not etc....

Vulnerable people should be able to reach help to their problems, but main source to provide that should be professional health care people, online casinos are not able to provide much help in addictions. These should be addressed to other instances.

Like some experienced casino people here said, if there is really severe problem, Gamstop or any self-exclusions don't solve that, access to money need to be cut that person simply don't have possibility to make a deposit as all funds are under supervision of other person. Any database or exclusion system don't solve addictions problem, there is need for much more.

George Best was very famous footballer as most probably know, he was really bad alcoholic and it was known to public that this person shouldn't be served alcohol anywhere or he will pass away, that unfortunately didn't help, he was able to drink himself dead. I still don't blame any particular pub or shop who sold him alcohol, shops, casinos or any other service providers provide their service, have some responsibilities like not check age checks if something is allowed only over 18 etc... but these simply can't provide professional or very extended support for small group of customers who's problem hasn't been recognized, reaching help and support from professionals and cut access to money would be first strong step to do.

 

[Slottery]

Its actually not like you can go and check everything if you have the person id of a person. Its still several grades of access. Bank id itself is just an online id. If i want to fix my taxes, i will have to log on with bank id to that page, but if you go to their office in person you would still need to identify yourself. So its nothing more then a digital ID card. Most nations have an id number on people anyway, so i disagree with bank id to expose anything a normal id hides.

There are quite many services around internet where you can with small subscription fee get access to information collected from public sources. Even having your name and address do get quite a lot information for free like your apartment price, cars registered to your name etc.. which is much more than in many countries in Europe. Then when you pay that little amount, can see all court decisions extended to all possible social warfare incidents, custody of children and what ever public decision is made.

I claim that if you provide me your personal id, i can quite easily tell your how much you declared taxes last year, if you have any registered court appearings, which cars are registered to you etc.... That's quite strong tool for due diligence and accurate information from Swedish people is therefore much easier find than for example UK people that there are no need to make that many document requests for thins can be known already when you have provided your bank id since registration, it verify your account and payment method so when that's provided in full, quite much can be found out with that.

Most of European countries don't provide these kind of numbers in your ID etc... and if you need to provide your ID which have your "social security number" like some countries are using, you are allowed most of places to hide last digits to save your identity (as only age and name need to be verified when ID is asked).

 

[AR1886]

I probably don’t come under your ‘experienced’ heading, but I’ve got plenty and I’ve reiterated the need for further tools to supplement a battle against gambling addiction over and above GamStop.

Though the Amazon comparison strikes me as quite ignorant, there’s such a big link between mental health issues/suicides and gambling addiction. It’s not some materialistic pursuit.

 

[L&L-Jan]

Sure. If i didnt read posts here where people could sign up cause they put a middle name, another email adress or some other simgle different info i agree. But as a system itself the way its implemented and used, its not working.

The way sweden use bank id to not only verify accounts, but also allow problem gamblers to exclude themselfs is a solid system. Why the rest of europe ( world) havent already implemented systems like that i cant understand. Not only for the sake of gambling but everything else. It allows for everything to be done quickly on your own pc. ( loan, papers, permits, tax +++)

It is not working is a different discussion, altering details you used to sign up at gamstop, use different details at a casino and than blame it on the casino - that is the discussion.

In any event:

You signed up at gamstop with YOUR details? Dont alter you details when you sign up at a casino, as per gamstop terms. And dont be surprised if you don't get a refund.

Simple as that.

And why ask the casino for refund, given the casino is well connected to gamstop, but not ask gamstop? Maybe thats a thing to try.

It is always the casino to blame, but never your own wrong doing? (given the fact that you agreed to gamstop's terms?)

Kr.

 

[AR1886]

It is not working is a different discussion, altering details you used to sign up at gamstop, use different details at a casino and than blame it on the casino - that is the discussion.

In any event:

You signed up at gamstop with YOUR details? Dont alter you details when you sign up at a casino, as per gamstop terms. And dont be surprised if you don't get a refund.

Simple as that.

And why ask the casino for refund, given the casino is well connected to gamstop, but not ask gamstop? Maybe thats a thing to try.

It is always the casino to blame, but never your own wrong doing? (given the fact that you agreed to gamstop's terms?)

Kr.

It isn’t for me to reply on anyone else’s circumstances and situations, though this seems like a massive sweeping statement, especially given the posts that have went before.

I’ve mentioned from my own experience, I’ve got all email addresses, phone numbers etc I could possibly think of linked to GamStop, conveniently they haven’t been picked up on registering with various bookmakers. I’ve also stated it’s not an instant cure, you’ve got to put other preventative measures in place.

Where has anyone said it’s all the casino’s fault though?

 

[Nordog]

It is not working is a different discussion, altering details you used to sign up at gamstop, use different details at a casino and than blame it on the casino - that is the discussion.

In any event:

You signed up at gamstop with YOUR details? Dont alter you details when you sign up at a casino, as per gamstop terms. And dont be surprised if you don't get a refund.

Simple as that.

And why ask the casino for refund, given the casino is well connected to gamstop, but not ask gamstop? Maybe thats a thing to try.

It is always the casino to blame, but never your own wrong doing? (given the fact that you agreed to gamstop's terms?)

Kr.

I would never blame the casino for my own fault. But lets face it, gambling can be addictive. And addicts do stupid stuff. This is a tool to prevent them for gambling, and if its that easy to bypass as some people say its simply not doing what its designed to do.
If gamstop is ment to protect, it shouldnt be enough to just change email to be allowed to get a green light from it?

I blame gamestop if anything for giving problem gamblers in uk a false feeling of security. When its so simple to bypass that even a kid can do it... Its not worth anything. Cause addicts will bypass, its in their nature.

 

[L&L-Jan]

I believe you can sign up with 5 email addresses, I have 3 - for the past 20 years. One for work, 1 for porn and 1 for private (which I use for gambling)

Stop creating email addresses in that case, or phone numbers.

And you can update your details on gamstop if required.

After almost a year of complaints: "hey im signed up at gamstop, you let me deposit and play - refund now!" I get quite sick of these complaints. Its labour for no reason, I could be dealing with a customer that deserve it, that requires the attention - for example, the attention of care - so that the customer plays within their limits or doesnt blow their profits gained.
(btw, there is an example here on the forum where I banned a customer for dropping their profits - only for the "care" part of our job!)

With any complaint there is always a massive difference within the details. We cant control that.

That the system is not bulletproof, ok, that is possible but operators didnt design the system so don't ask the operator for help....

Kr.

 

[Slottery]

I probably don’t come under your ‘experienced’ heading, but I’ve got plenty and I’ve reiterated the need for further tools to supplement a battle against gambling addiction over and above GamStop.

Though the Amazon comparison strikes me as quite ignorant, there’s such a big link between mental health issues/suicides and gambling addiction. It’s not some materialistic pursuit.

Yes, there would be some help provided addcited people to try to fight against it. Point was just that casinos don't have educated staff to deal with these addictions, that help must come somewhere much deeper than self-exclusion checks. Gamstop should be improved like discussed alredy in this topic and where many agreed.

There are people who have ruined their lifes and made suicides because of being shopaholics, there are people who have ruined their lives who been alcoholics, there are people who have ruined their lives being gamble addicts. List of possible addictions is almost endless. Point what i tried to reach is that people who are suffering these unfortunate addictions, should be able to get help and support, but service provider is not number one to reach when trying to live with addiction and stay in control.

These tools like Gamstop, even after make these blocks stronger, don't cure any addictions, it takes much more and as been suggested many times, if really trying everything and can't survive with that, cutting to source to money is one thing to start and get professional help in frequenses it's needed, every people is single and different.

 

[Nordog]

I believe you can sign up with 5 email addresses, I have 3 - for the past 20 years. One for work, 1 for porn and 1 for private (which I use for gambling)

Stop creating email addresses in that case, or phone numbers.

And you can update your details on gamstop if required.

After almost a year of complaints: "hey im signed up at gamstop, you let me deposit and play - refund now!" I get quite sick of these complaints. Its labour for no reason, I could be dealing with a customer that deserve it, that requires the attention - for example, the attention of care - so that the customer plays within their limits or doesnt blow their profits gained.
(btw, there is an example here on the forum where I banned a customer for dropping their profits - only for the "care" part of our job!)

With any complaint there is always a massive difference within the details. We cant control that.

That the system is not bulletproof, ok, that is possible but operators didnt design the system so don't ask the operator for help....

Kr.

I remember that case, and im not attacking you, or any rep/casino that are trying to do their best. I have so much respect for you and the way you dealt with that case. Thats A+ and an excellent proof of top notch customer care!

Keep up thr good work jan!

 

[AR1886]

Precisely, but it also has to be cut off at source. The casinos are washing their hands of all culpability, even over the course of this thread there’s an affiliate manager who seems more keen to dismiss and shift blame than acknowledging the responsibility they have in these situations.

The complaints aren’t going to go away and while I understand you are sick of them, the suggestion those people don’t deserve your attention sums up the attitude I’ve experienced in these instances.

Albeit I’m sure they appreciate the monies they’ve gained for these situations though.

 

[Slottery]

Precisely, but it also has to be cut off at source. The casinos are washing their hands of all culpability, even over the course of this thread there’s an affiliate manager who seems more keen to dismiss and shift blame than acknowledging the responsibility they have in these situations.

The complaints aren’t going to go away and while I understand you are sick of them, the suggestion those people don’t deserve your attention sums up the attitude I’ve experienced in these instances.

Albeit I’m sure they appreciate the monies they’ve gained for these situations though.

I would guess that online casinos have much more checks in places to prevent problem gamblers for playing than 99% of places who are selling alcohol even though there are much more alcoholics in Europe with huge addiction which even more often end up to early dead of person.

Still point tried to say was that these persons who are seriously sick and addicted, should reach help and support from professionals and do it fast as possible, there help and planning how to try to get over these problems could start depending how severe it is. First is to don't let person to have access to any money but some amount a day which would be fully controlled for everything. As long addiction is so bad that can't stop signing in casinos with changing details and not looking that kind of help from professionals and trying to arrange somebody to supervise all financial transactions, any of casinos blocks are pretty much useless to deal with this serious addiction.

Gamstop is just one not very well working tool like some parental controls what you can install to computers, getting around them is most of the times possible if there is person who is willing to try to do that. Gamstop can be done better but again it don't cure any single addicted person.

 

[AR1886]

I’ve mentioned that numerous times, but that doesn’t hide the fact that GamStop and bookmakers doing little/no checks is a part of the problem.

 

[Slottery]

I’ve mentioned that numerous times, but that doesn’t hide the fact that GamStop and bookmakers doing little/no checks is a part of the problem.

I explained how these checks in most casinos are completed step by step, if Gamstop provide you "not self-excluded" casino will rely to that information.

I would turn on Gamstop in this and would provide all details about how vulnerable their system is and how easy it's to circumvent. Casinos can't really do much if they don't make it better as casinos have no control to way they provide their reply to casinos request.

In my experience as a player and about casinos systems, you are not able to create account with dublicate details when it's coming to phone number and email address and even less if your name, address and dob is mathing. Some might then have really weak system, but haven't seen one that weak so far. As there are discussed to other topic, there are also casinos who accept players from UK who don't have UK license etc... To speak casinos as in whole is bit giving picture that most of casinos don't have any checks in place even against their own self-exclusion database.

If you have many incidents where identical details have been accepted and you have been able to play, i would highlight them all to UKGC (if speaking about Gamstop and phone number / email change, that works as designed by regulators and there is not really anything what casinos could do in that but Gamstop itself should make their system better as it's part of regulations for casinos to recognize these blocks as they are provided from Gamstop and that's how they do)-

 

[AR1886]

My own personal situation have varying factors and they aren’t really being dealt with by the bookmakers or anyone else for that matter.

As for issues with GamStop, I’ve raised these concerns too. I’ve always been firm on my stance that unless verification is done ahead of sign up then these threads won’t go away.

The bookmakers and casinos also have different methods of dealing with the same situations, this shouldn’t be the case. There should be a blanket set of rules for these instances and how they are dealt with - not just the casino management deciding that refunds aren’t issued.

As I say, it’s hardly a surprise though, these companies don’t care about anything other than the bottom line. It’s been shown time and time again, the industry is funded by problem gamblers - its a conflict of interest for them to provide stringent support mechanisms.