Spela issue SE

Redfoo

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Hi I am after some advice, I registered on gamstop in may this year and have not gambled since. However, last night I did something stupid, I registered at Spela and deposited £350 which I ended up losing. At one point I clawed back £200 and withdrew it only to cancel it and carry on.

Contacted live chat and told them I was SE and he took my details and could see I was SE on my genesis account. He closed my account down and I asked about the deposits I made. He said he would do a refund request for the deposits I made.

My email address and tel no have changed since i signed up to gamstop but my name, address and dob are the same on gamstop as what I registered with Spela.

Is it likely that I will get my deposits back? Also, no documents were requested before I made my deposits and I thought that was something that had to be done now

I know I am stupid for gambling and I made a slip which has upset me more than anything as I thought I was doing well.
 

irish-ranger

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You opened the account with different details from the ones you used for Gamstop (email address and phone number) So in theory you circumvented the exclusion I don't really fancy your chances.
But who knows.
 

brianmon

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Hi I am after some advice, I registered on gamstop in may this year and have not gambled since. However, last night I did something stupid, I registered at Spela and deposited £350 which I ended up losing. At one point I clawed back £200 and withdrew it only to cancel it and carry on.

Contacted live chat and told them I was SE and he took my details and could see I was SE on my genesis account. He closed my account down and I asked about the deposits I made. He said he would do a refund request for the deposits I made.

My email address and tel no have changed since i signed up to gamstop but my name, address and dob are the same on gamstop as what I registered with Spela.

Is it likely that I will get my deposits back? Also, no documents were requested before I made my deposits and I thought that was something that had to be done now

I know I am stupid for gambling and I made a slip which has upset me more than anything as I thought I was doing well.
Isn't it a condition of Gamstop, that you keep them updated with any changes of details?
You were probably verified electronically, which will be why no documents would have needed to be requested.

As has been said on the forums, many times, GameStop is just one of many ways to help people stop gambling.
It isn't the 'be all and end all'. Especially if you aren't using it properly, by keeping your details up to date.

If you want to blame anyone, blame Gamstop. They're the ones who check your details and give the casino a simple yes or no answer.
 

irish-ranger

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Isn't it a condition of Gamstop, that you keep them updated with any changes of details?
You were probably verified electronically, which will be why no documents would have needed to be requested.

As has been said on the forums, many times, GameStop is just one of many ways to help people stop gambling.
It isn't the 'be all and end all'. Especially if you aren't using it properly, by keeping your details up to date.

If you want to blame anyone, blame Gamstop. They're the ones who check your details and give the casino a simple yes or no answer.
I can't see how the op can blame Gamstop as he signed up with different details email/phone I'm afraid on this occasion he's pissing in the wind.
 

brianmon

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I can't see how the op can blame Gamstop as he signed up with different details email/phone I'm afraid on this occasion he's pissing in the wind.
I wasn't suggesting he should literally blame Gamstop.
I was just pointing out that the casino (AFAIK) only get a YES/NO response from Gamstop.
So, unless the casino has been given a 'no' and ignored it. Then they haven't done anything wrong, so shouldn't be liable for a refund
 

dunover

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Hi I am after some advice, I registered on gamstop in may this year and have not gambled since. However, last night I did something stupid, I registered at Spela and deposited £350 which I ended up losing. At one point I clawed back £200 and withdrew it only to cancel it and carry on.

Contacted live chat and told them I was SE and he took my details and could see I was SE on my genesis account. He closed my account down and I asked about the deposits I made. He said he would do a refund request for the deposits I made.

My email address and tel no have changed since i signed up to gamstop but my name, address and dob are the same on gamstop as what I registered with Spela.

Is it likely that I will get my deposits back? Also, no documents were requested before I made my deposits and I thought that was something that had to be done now

I know I am stupid for gambling and I made a slip which has upset me more than anything as I thought I was doing well.

If they are looking into refunding you then good on them. Let us know how it goes. Whether you deserve it or not, it may be considered the right thing to do now they are aware your are Gamstop registered. If you knowingly tried to circumvent the system, then shame on you. I hope not.
 

AR1886

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Sorry to hear of your situation. Chasing back your deposits will be difficult given the change in your details,

I’ve been quite open about my struggles on these forums and during my relapse I used some of my partners details to open accounts.

Even though most of the details registered were on GamStop, the bookies didn’t refund my deposits. I’m still absolutely set on the view you should have to verify before deposits, but sadly that’s not the case more often than not.

I don’t agree with the ‘shame on you’ reply, you’ve admitted you’ve a problem with your gambling, relapses can happen, I’d suggest looking at Monese who can block gambling transactions - it’s certainly a big help.

I wish you well in getting your deposits back, but a more significant element is avoiding lapsing again.
 

Slottery

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If they are looking into refunding you then good on them. Let us know how it goes. Whether you deserve it or not, it may be considered the right thing to do now they are aware your are Gamstop registered. If you knowingly tried to circumvent the system, then shame on you. I hope not.

As a casino, wouldn't considering to refund any deposit, unfortunately. As OP stated, there were two changes in personal details which why Gamstop didn't pick up SE from database.

Not saying that i would hope OP not get refunded or blame OP about asking it, but if Gamstop works like it does at the moment when just changing your phone and email will not flag your account even all other details match, it would be very expensive or at least overwhelming workload to accept one refund under these circumstances, if it happen and word would spread about it, there for sure will be huge pile of claims if word start to spread that changing these details (which are most easiest to do, open email address in minute and use your frieds etc.. phone number) you would get refunded.

Would address this to Gamstop to develop their system little bit further, for example email at least is not really strong personal detail as most of us use many and phone numbers also change with time (or as said, it's super easy way to use other persons one).

I still have my old opinion that in SE checks it should trigger if there is an identical match in name and date of birth (what ever is most common name in UK, don't probably even have hundreds of them born in same date). If you happen to be that "lucky" that you have kind of match, there should be way to KYC you and send details to Gamstop to get their opinion with some standard form used where you state that these are your details, you all possible used email addresses, addresses where been living or what ever to make sure correct person is let to play in casino.
 

AR1886

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If the bookmakers would verify accounts before deposits then these issues would almost disappear I reckon.
 

Slottery

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If the bookmakers would verify accounts before deposits then these issues would almost disappear I reckon.

That's what they have to do and are doing. They verified your age electronically, as you said your name, DoB and address used were valid so they were able to verify that you are over 18.

Then other check what they did to Gamstop, did return No to answer if player is self-excluded in there.

These are two different processes, to electronic age verification is done through 3rd party provider and just confirm that person exists. Gamstop check is done against Gamstop database and there these did not exist with details provided (email address and phone number were different)

If they wouldn't be able to verify your age electronically through their used automated service, then you would have been asked to verify yourself manually and this self-exclusion would have come out when doing that, but there was no reason because automated verification did that.

I could place a small bet that this is what actually happened even can't see what everything is done, but as they are forced to verify you before deposit, i strongly assume that it have happened as otherwise they would probably have ended up in big troubles. Gamstop check also most probably was completed as it should and based on information provided this topic, it returned correctly answer that player is not self-excluded.

So until Gamstop change some approach how they reply to casino is generated to be Yes or No, it's really strongly advised to keep detaisl in Gamstop up to date as it's this easy to get around it if have changed email and phone number. It's totally up to Gamstop to change that, casinos are completing your age verification and Gamstop self-exclusion check as they should.

As long electronic verification is strong enough method (like it is and if fail, then to be done manually) i really don't see any casino would go route to verify every single player manually as that huge amount of work and huge drop in conversion as so many people are not willing to send their ID before be able to even access game lobby. If changing both details during Gamstop self-exclusion, it's highly important to keep them up do date and bare in mind not to use any other ones even would have (many of us also have more than one phone number) several emails and phone numbers.
 
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AR1886

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I'm not the original poster here @Slottery, though I'm not sure this happening across the board.

Verifying age is all well and good, but in my experiences of having a relapse and registering under my partners name with several bookmakers - the email, home address and mobile number all matched the GamStop details - that surely confirms that many bookmakers don't do GamStop checks?

My GamStop is set up to avoid any situations of temptation - I've registered every email address I could think of that I've ever had and same with my mobile numbers.

My view is that the extra steps are necessary to prevent access to accounts by excluded and problem gamblers, but I'm undoubtedly coming at this from a different perspective.
 

Nordog

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Just one question. If they can verify everything electronic, why cant that database also be connected to game stop??

Name: xxxx
D.o.b:
Adress:
Gamestop banned? : yes/no

This would solve alot would it not??
 

AR1886

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Of course it would, but the monies of self excluded and problem gamblers is massive so therefore the majority of bookmakers do the bare minimum.
 

Slottery

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I'm not the original poster here @Slottery, though I'm not sure this happening across the board.

Verifying age is all well and good, but in my experiences of having a relapse and registering under my partners name with several bookmakers - the email, home address and mobile number all matched the GamStop details - that surely confirms that many bookmakers don't do GamStop checks?

My GamStop is set up to avoid any situations of temptation - I've registered every email address I could think of that I've ever had and same with my mobile numbers.

My view is that the extra steps are necessary to prevent access to accounts by excluded and problem gamblers, but I'm undoubtedly coming at this from a different perspective.

My sincere apologies @AR1886 , shouldn't try to post during work. It would be very severe breach if casino not checking details with Gamstop on all signups and if enough details match, it should trigger. If i would think something is not when enough details give positive match, i would reach Gamstop to confirm and report casino in question. Have no deep knowledge how Gamstop works and how many phone and email details they do store etc... but fi casino fails whole process, they are in quite big trouble.

Just one question. If they can verify everything electronic, why cant that database also be connected to game stop??

Name: xxxx
D.o.b:
Adress:
Gamestop banned? : yes/no

This would solve alot would it not??

Yes, it would, as i suggested, in my opinon just full name and DoB would be enough to give positive match and if not correct person, it's not too hard to work out. Getting address there as well would make false positives 0, taking an account that all type these exactly same way and don't use Pete instead Peter etc... same with addresses, post number probably would be quite sure thing not to make any alternative.

Of course it would, but the monies of self excluded and problem gamblers is massive so therefore the majority of bookmakers do the bare minimum.

I would more point to Gamstop as casinos are sending all these details to get yes or no answer and Gamstop has decided how many details need to be matching. If that would be changed like suggested in earlier post that Name, DoB and Address match it would give positive answer, it would solve loads of these problems as email and phone number are easiest to be changed or circumvented if user wish to get in even is self-excluded.

Casinos do not actually have big gold mine in self-excluded players they would like to get on their site to play. When somebody is in so much troubles with gambling that decide to self-exclude through Gamstop and trying to circumvent self-exclusion by providing fake details, they usually don't have too much money to spend left but every single case needs to be investigated if player states that should have active self-exclusion in place and it didn't trigger (what players who managed to circumvent system with purpose or not, mostly sooner or later do).

In other thread is quite long conversation that many casinos don't accept players back if they at anytime have self-excluded themselves in Gamstop or directly through casino, they have decided not to accept these players back even player wanted to self-exclude only for 6 months or any other period. That gives different suggestion about who much casinos really want problem gamblers to play with them if they don't accept them back even player would be allowed by regulations to play again. That everyone can only guess what is behind of these decisions, avoid any possible troubles or will to help problem gamblers not to get in trouble again, every casino who decided to do so have they own reason which we only can be guessing.
 

colinsunderland

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Gamstop has serious flaws, and its not really fit for purpose, so many people seem to fall through the cracks, and its easy to beat. Now I know people will say, the gambler should take responsibility, but the fact is, someone with an addiction will always do what they can to get a fix.

Now that more checks have to be done on a customer, what would stop 99% of customers would be

All casinos having to use the royal mail postcode/address database for signups. That stops any variation of an address being input (like 45, then 45A, stuff like that). Ignore casinos who say it costs too much, its under a penny a customer.
Name and DOB be checked on sign up

Once those are verified, gamestop should return a 'yes, self excluded' for anyone who's name, DOB and postcode match. Never mind emails and mobile numbers, you can change both simply.

In the VERY rare case 2 people in the same postcode share the same name and DOB then thats easily sorted by a call to gamstop.
 

AR1886

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I haven't found any evidence in my communication that the bookmakers are willing to engage in any significant checks. Of course however, when it comes to withdrawals are all over asking for documentation - @Slottery your point rings true about probably having made their money by the point of self exclusion, but they take absolutely no responsibility for people who circumvent their exclusion. You won't get your deposits back, but you'll sure as hell be able to depoist.

I've taken additional steps to avoid temptation, but I'm so fed up hearing of stories where the bookmakers just simply wash their hands of the situation. I genuinely feel for the OP here, as it's a rotten situation, they had next to no chance of being able to verify that account successfully and therefore had almost zero chance of winning, even if they did win.

Addiction and desperation will force gamblers into trying to find a way to bet - with many online bookmakers it''s far too easy to do so despite GamStop.
 

Slottery

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I have to say that at the moment i have no exact information on how any particular casino is dealing with their self-exclusion operations and monitorings, but i would strongly assume that basic level many are doing pretty much something like that (based on my experience as a player and some knowledge about casinos operations after been living quite many years in Malta, but as said, it's just my assumption in very basic level, many, most or all can do more or less things very differently, but to be able to follow compliance regulations, below is some quite logic steps which i beliewe might be steps in general in new players registration process and checks within first withdrawl) :

- When you sign up, your age is confirmed from some trusted and compliant database automatically (and if you add your date of birht to be under 18, registration process is not going even to point where this check is made).

- After getting Yes that you are over 18 (if can't be automatically verified, manual check needs to take place as UK players shouldn't be able to deposit or even access game lobby to play games with play money), check against Gamstop database is done, when certain amount of details (not going to exact what is checked and how many need to match as i don't remember for now, but somebody can add it, it been spoken in other threads several times but don't want to trust my bad memory and suggest totally wrong information, but many enough details need to match that SE reply is sent to casino) and getting green or red light to go ahead with your registration.

- If active SE in Gamstop, process should stop and advice you (this is totally up to casinos front end design what kind of message you get etc.. but process need to stop there) about self-exclution and your details get registered to casinos database as you entered them to complete these checks, so they also are able to advise you that you got automatically self-excluded because one existed.

- You are allowed to deposit and play. At some point even without withdrawal most of the casinos request manual verification (it's very much about casino which trigger it to them, usually some threshold met or some RG/AML/Fraud trigger or just randomly picked account).

Then when you manage to withdraw:

- Many casinos are asking you to verify yourself, mostly because of your payment method can't be verified during the registration process, you haven't use it and it most of the time needs picture of your card, bank statement, netwallet or what ever method you are using. Some casinos request it every single time upon first withdrawal from all players, some will pay them without until some amount or some other trigger like fraudulent pattern in your deposits and game play, use of anonymous payment method or any possible other triggers they might have in place.

- When manual process is completed, it most of the time find out that it's same player who have been having account and is self-excluded, afaik or have heard, no casino check Gamstop in this step as it's been done already and green light given to accept player.

- Then they usually end up to void your bets and refund your deposits. If it happen later than in your first withdrawal and you are all over winning, i haven't ever heard that casino would have asked to pay possible difference from your winnings as they agree you should be self-excluded.

It has been discussed a lot here and many other places (not last in casinos who need to build and document their processes to work together with regulations) that Gamstop self-exclusions have quite severe black holes, like this email and phone number only changed thing if it go through (again, i'm not 100% sure which are all checked details and how many of them give casino self-exclusion message, but somebody can confirm it). Casinos (most of them and who are not trying to play dirty and risk their license etc.. which i have not heard happening with purpose but as said, i have no exact processes of all casinos available anywhere) own self-exckusion system is in majority at least i strongly assume will not accept email address what is used another account as it should be unique as well as phone number because they are used for personal communication and two players can't share same (i think it's also against come compliance regulations not to allow same details twice, except something like your gender, dob, name etc.. where duplicates can exist).

I fully share same opinion that Gamstop should be improved a lot and there are simple things to do like already in this forum many times many different members have figured out to be much stronger to recognize these registration attempts. I don't either share any opinion about casinos different policies where some take all self-exclusions as permanent and not accept players back even their time in Gamstop is expired. I just tried to give my two cents about these processes based on experience and knowledge what i have gained from several sources. I don't work or be any how related or affiliated to any casino operator but has been, that's reason why i posted my at least bit educated guess about how this happen in practice but every casino make their own decision about exact processes, this was just rare example without too much details how it would be possible to be compliant and run operations. These manual checks upon withdrawals are up to casinos themselves to decide, i don't really agree to that opinion with these guys who ask verification always in first withdrawal even it would be very small, that IMO is just giving them more work and create worse user experience, when it comming to big amounts, i will understand it and also some AML regulations are there to be followed if non verified player make significant big transactions.

Sorry about long posts and there is no reason to correct me that casinos are doing something different as they are and they all are to decide their own operational details. This is just something in very high level without any details which they also have to have much better documented than my few words step by steps.

Edit: @colinsunderland above gave great example how easy it would to make system much stronger and fully agreed to these kind of points in checks should be in place which would catch 99% sure any attempts, email and phone number should not be counted as anyhow strong verification details in Gamstop country wide database. Casinos themselves can find these from their own self-exclusion database (at least most of them, some might have some very weak checks but assume most don't want to get in trouble with purpose) when trying to sign up with these details matched but Gamstop don't stop them which is totally not right.
 
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zippydodo

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Might be talking gibberish here. but on cznt the casino ask a question like.... are you registered with gamstop when people are signing up. serving 2 purposes . 1 reminding the player that they need to do a reality check before they proceed. 2. protecting the casino if a player lies outright
 

AR1886

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Might be talking gibberish here. but on cznt the casino ask a question like.... are you registered with gamstop when people are signing up. serving 2 purposes . 1 reminding the player that they need to do a reality check before they proceed. 2. protecting the casino if a player lies outright

Another good point, for all the flaws in GamStop - the bookmakers don’t make much of an effort to be rigid on it from my experience.

Here’s an example, this is a reply from Premier Punt I received:

Please be aware we check all accounts with GAMSTOP when a new player registers with us.
I would like to inform you that in order for GAMSTOP checks to be carried out fully ALL details registered to GAMSTOP must be ALL be the same as the ones registered on your premier punt account.

As you used a different name when registering this did not flag up.

Therefore we cannot issue any refunds or back payments regarding this account.
If you want to take this up with GAMSTOP please do and get them to cc us into any emails using email support@premierpunt.com.

I’ve already given my take on how problem gamblers will go to lengths for a bet. Changing one detail while ignoring the other red flags is shocking.
 

Nordog

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I feel casinos use one small change in infos as a cheap eacuse to allow problem gamblers that ban themself on Gamestop to gamble.
 

TravellingRecluse

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Also agree. The whole thing is a farce. I’ve had numerous casinos stand behind the T&Cs bit and claim that a middle name and a different email address on an account registration is sufficient for GamStop to fail.

Yet when you don’t put your full name they then say “oh your ID/statement etc does not match”

I find that to be total bollocks. If a first name, surname, DOB and residential address are all an exact match how is that not detected.

I recently made a complaint about bingo.com to the above effect and they have basically said go F yourself yet when I tried to register with Unibet (same people) their system picked me up.


Being a problem gambler sometimes make you feel sub human when you get that standard “you are responsible for your actions blah blah” like we are all idiots.

Some of you will no doubt take the high ground and come out with the “it’s your fault, grow up, get over it” etc.

I don’t for a second buy that half of these companies give the slightest shit about problem gamblers and do the absolute legal and moral minimum to get the regulators off their backs.

I would bank on the fact that if it was prescription drug or alcohol issues that was the topic of conversation then the public domain would be straight on the “they need help” bandwagon and “Tesco are corrupt for selling that Vodka to that alcoholic” because it has a visual impact or worse on their lives.

Gambling though, most people don’t give a shit as most of us don’t sit begging outside the stations or pubs for small chance so it’s not their problem., it’s often none visual until some people can’t hack it any more and do the unthinkable.

I do absolutely everything I can to stay away from gambling. I’m on GamStop and I’m SE from all land based in the UK through SENSE.

When I SE through SENSE in my local grosvenor they took it seriously and in no uncertain terms advised if I step foot in there I can be done for trespass.

I have had slip ups and registered online using legitimate details that have been backed up by the usual ID processes and so many times have I been able to go through with it.

I am a UK citizen/resident so if these places have systems that are sophisticated enough that they can automatically verify a player and conduct AML/CDD checks there is ZERO excuse for GamStop not working or at least promoting further investigation when name, dob and address are exact matches.

If GamStop and/or operator systems are flawed in that small differences in information can lead to a failed detection then that system and anyone associated with it should be replaced.

As for allowing casinos to hold a UK licence and not have GamStop registration as a pre requisite of their licence terms this far down the line is shambolic.
 

AR1886

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Great post @TravellingRecluse.

Like yourself I’ve put further measures in place, but when you relapse it’s a mission of self destruction, it’s just very galling that there’s a really lack of care with many bookmakers. I’ve found Premier Punt and Karamba to be the two very worst.

There of course will be the arguement for accountability but the sooner these people realise this is an illness similar to drug abuse or alcohol abuse the better. People are losing their lives over this, people are losing their homes over this, yet in the midst of an addiction you change a detail and you’ve got opportunity to gamble your last penny away?

These companies don’t have a social conscious, they have to copy and paste a wee bit on their website and then employ smug live chat advisors to tell you how horrible a person you are for changing a detail to register.

Sorry, you’ve triggered me here a bit, but these scenarios often aren’t sob stories, this is a much bigger issue.
 
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