SOW..

itsover2014

Full Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
Hi All,

I have just been asked for SOW information at an accredited casino I rarely play at.

They gave me some free spins yesterday which I turned into a quick wager free small withdrawal. I have not deposited there in months and now I cannot login without completing the SOW information..

I hate giving this stuff to casinos, I find it a real privacy issue, and bar 1 or 2 where I have provided it I do not play where they ask for it, hence not depositing here in a while, but being asked without depositing, and holding the WD ransom until they get it.. sigh..

WTF
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
Please tell us what casino it is. No need to hide that.
Is it just something you need to fill in or do they want you to send a lot of info too?
 

itsover2014

Full Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
It is Guts.

So far it is asking occupation, salary, other sources of income etc but usually that leads to further things.

I would not mind had I been going crazy depositing, but I rarely ever use them anymore :/

The WD is less than £100 too
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
It is Guts.

So far it is asking occupation, salary, other sources of income etc but usually that leads to further things.

I would not mind had I been going crazy depositing, but I rarely ever use them anymore :/

The WD is less than £100 too

they are just asking you to fill it in, not to send any proof.
It maybe will lead to them asking for more later but it doesn't have to happen. You probably will need to fill it in..
 

itsover2014

Full Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
they are just asking you to fill it in, not to send any proof.
It maybe will lead to them asking for more later but it doesn't have to happen. You probably will need to fill it in..

Yeah, their message basically says fill it in or we won't process the withdrawal... I will have to do it, but it makes me kind of frustrated as I did not deposit for the offer, so to me they have no place asking me anything. They already did KYC on me in the past around 3x over the years.
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
My guess is that they have to be able to show ukgc that they are asking their customers, so no matter if it's valid or not they chose the easiest way to do it.
 

lotusch

A little mix of Dutch and Irish
Joined
Jun 3, 2013
Location
Dún Dealgan
What a joke, for a 100 quid WD and also the fact you rarely play there..
At least let a SOW request come in when you want to deposit, not when you do a WD, it's an utter joke..
They basically can hold your funds as long as they want if you do not wish to send in such information..

You wonder how a SOW is triggered as in this case it is obviously not needed whatsoever..

I got the same at Betat, had not played there for at least 2 years, made 1 deposit and made a WD.
Did get paid first I have to say but the day after I could not deposit or WD anymore as they sent me a SOW request.

I play much more on other casinos and they never ever asked me anything except the normal KYC docs.
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
It is Guts.

So far it is asking occupation, salary, other sources of income etc but usually that leads to further things.

I would not mind had I been going crazy depositing, but I rarely ever use them anymore :/

The WD is less than £100 too

Ask them why they are asking, for AML reasons or RG reasons. The way forward will depend on the answer. It can't be both.
 

NeverLucky

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
I have completed the form, if I get any more questions I will ask again for the info above. I will also ask the rep why this was triggered.
Unfortunately i doubt you will get much Information out of that as telling you what exactly caused it might be useful for some who are actually up to no good to gain Insight as to how to avoid triggering an SoW.
 

mac72

Threatening behaviour - PITA
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Location
n ireland
When casino's do this (any casino) surely they are actually showing that they aren't adhering to the UKGC guidelines?
In examples like these no deposit was made so it can't be RG issue.

If then it's AML then again no deposit was made and if he hadn't received a "freebie" he might well never of played here again in which case no SOW would have been asked for so if they are saying its to "comply" with AML then it has to do with previous deposits that they have never asked about up until now and may never have had the opportunity to if this situation hadn't arisen.That to me is non-compliance

The fact it is EVER triggered on withdrawal by any operator just stinks,if you hit a trigger with a deposit you should just be stopped from playing until its carried out and offered a refund on that deposit if you don't wish to provide a load of info.To be allowed to continue on and on and then be presented with this at Withdrawal time is just infuriating. AML must be triggered by NET deposits using any other criteria makes no sense (i had one last month from one of the top casinos on here when i asked what my lifetime profit/loss was it was £12 in profit what a complete and utter joke. I also had another highly rated casino lock the account over SOW and i thought i'd see if they actually carried out any meaningful checks or just collected paper and ticked boxes so i sent them a bank statement from an account that i only use for certain things gambling being one and which has no income on it but there are plenty of transactions and hey presto 3 hours later all good, it's called SOW for christ's sake and there was none on this! )

But seeing the way online casino's work and the messy way they handle info there really is a shit storm coming in the near future when a load of data ends up somewhere is shouldn't and that will be claim city. With breaches of this nature and the harm they do i really would hate to be director/ceo status within any of these Casino Groups i can't see the "corporate veil" being much protection.
 

EkJR

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Location
Glasgow
When casino's do this (any casino) surely they are actually showing that they aren't adhering to the UKGC guidelines?
In examples like these no deposit was made so it can't be RG issue.

If then it's AML then again no deposit was made and if he hadn't received a "freebie" he might well never of played here again in which case no SOW would have been asked for so if they are saying its to "comply" with AML then it has to do with previous deposits that they have never asked about up until now and may never have had the opportunity to if this situation hadn't arisen.That to me is non-compliance

The fact it is EVER triggered on withdrawal by any operator just stinks,if you hit a trigger with a deposit you should just be stopped from playing until its carried out and offered a refund on that deposit if you don't wish to provide a load of info.To be allowed to continue on and on and then be presented with this at Withdrawal time is just infuriating. AML must be triggered by NET deposits using any other criteria makes no sense (i had one last month from one of the top casinos on here when i asked what my lifetime profit/loss was it was £12 in profit what a complete and utter joke. I also had another highly rated casino lock the account over SOW and i thought i'd see if they actually carried out any meaningful checks or just collected paper and ticked boxes so i sent them a bank statement from an account that i only use for certain things gambling being one and which has no income on it but there are plenty of transactions and hey presto 3 hours later all good, it's called SOW for christ's sake and there was none on this! )

But seeing the way online casino's work and the messy way they handle info there really is a shit storm coming in the near future when a load of data ends up somewhere is shouldn't and that will be claim city. With breaches of this nature and the harm they do i really would hate to be director/ceo status within any of these Casino Groups i can't see the "corporate veil" being much protection.
Is it not just, again, that the rules are unclear and someone within Guts compliance has made an SOP which means asking for this instead of highlighting those that are high risk? Sounds like a scattergun approach.
 

EkJR

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Location
Glasgow
The "insight" of what triggers SoW is clear from the examples here at CM.
Totally random or blanket requests :p

As I said above, it seems to be a scattergun approach, not even a catch all. Is that down to the rules being unclear?

On SE for example, the GC say that casinos should set their own rules. They then say that they will impose sanctions if "reasonable steps" aren't taken, no definition. It's the same with the SOW stuff, it's for the casinos to determine. Too many grey areas as usual.
 

Mark_32Red (retired acct)

Dormant account
Joined
May 23, 2008
Location
32Red Marketing Dpt
Hi Guys,

Obviously I don’t work there but I can have a guess at why they have requested.

SOW triggers are obviously different for each casino and the guidelines themselves are quite vague, but usually there will be a policy where “when deposits reach x”, “where withdrawals reach y” or “where deposits and withdrawals reach z”.

I suspect in this case you have reached the withdrawal threshold that they have set before it triggers the request.

Mark
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
...and I've heard that sometimes it's an easy way to get such thing at withdrawal stage and if it's just a form to fill then maybe it isn't that hurtful :)
 

dpp00

Experienced Member
Joined
May 19, 2012
Location
uk
guts and rizk had this a while ago when i logged in i was presented with a simple form with a few questions before i could proceed,

i don't mind this kind of self verifying i didn't have to send anything and have had no problems since, personally id just tick the boxes,

the major objection i had to both of them is that i had deposited first before this form popped up but as i said simple form and i was immediately able to continue,
 

mac72

Threatening behaviour - PITA
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Location
n ireland
Hi Guys,

Obviously I don’t work there but I can have a guess at why they have requested.

SOW triggers are obviously different for each casino and the guidelines themselves are quite vague, but usually there will be a policy where “when deposits reach x”, “where withdrawals reach y” or “where deposits and withdrawals reach z”.

I suspect in this case you have reached the withdrawal threshold that they have set before it triggers the request.

Mark
Not having a go here at all mark but i just don't understand any of those critera x,y,or z. With withdrawals having to go back to deposit method surely the only thing that matters is NETT deposits?? If i start with £100 at 32red say withdraw £1000, and repeat this exact process for 30 days (not likely i know) am i going to have continual SOW requests?? My "wealth" is coming from my winning nothing else and i only ever used £100 of my own dough? Whole thing just baffles me
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
I think we got answer to this from Rizk rep some time ago and they will trigger it based on lifetime thresholds (deposits+withdrawals) so now you can have quite accurate assumption when this group of casinos are set to request this information. Just check or ask which are your lifetime deposits+withdrawals all together and quite sure they hit some borderline which probably is some round number like £xx thousands.

But for sure in this occasion they should not request it as if they give you freebies, you are not laundering money nor it can't be very obvious responsible gaming related harm that you have addiction if they give you freespins (and if it would, that would be really irresponsible from casino to feed your addiction :) )
 

Guts

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 24, 2017
Location
Malta
Hello Everyone!

There has been a lot of interests towards this topic since it was introduced in igaming and given the nature of the documents requested, I understand it's a controversial subject which can cause a bit stir and confusion as it is a relatively new regulation in the online casino industry. Our goal is to make it as a painless and smooth process to the customer as possible since this is something that cannot be neglected.

We are obligated to verify customers Source of Wealth due to the UKGC regulations stating we need to know where the funds from the customer's deposits are coming from. We also need to follow the Responsible Gaming guidelines and ensure player's safety which may also lead for request of SOW related documents.

Being a fully licenced and responsible casino operator, we are also required to comply with certain regulatory requirements, as per our obligation to both EU and national requirements.

Hi Guys,

Obviously, I don’t work there but I can have a guess at why they have requested.

SOW triggers are obviously different for each casino and the guidelines themselves are quite vague, but usually there will be a policy where “when deposits reach x”, “where withdrawals reach y” or “where deposits and withdrawals reach z”.

I suspect in this case you have reached the withdrawal threshold that they have set before it triggers the request.

Mark

You are correct when it comes “where deposits and withdrawals reach 2.000 Euro” following the UKGC regulations, we are entitled to request SOW if the AML threshold when this threshold is met. If this threshold is met, that's when we ask for the Source of Wealth questionnaire, possibly also Source of Funds documents such as payslips, work contracts, a sale of properties or similar to maintain the player safety of our players.

Source of Wealth Questionnaire may trigger on deposit and also withdrawals for a lifetime amount when it reaches the threshold or any deposits/withdrawals, as this is a new procedure that started last year which then allows us to request any SoW documents/questionnaires from players for their safety.

The Source of Wealth is mostly asked for UK players, in order to make sure there are players who're not playing if they're loaning funds, in debt, unemployed with no income, low salary, or on welfare.

This is something the UKGC has ruled which we need to follow in order to be able to operate in the United Kingdom.
 

itsover2014

Full Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Location
United Kingdom
Just to add a little more context to this, I last deposited in November 2017 and have had a tiny deposit limit ever since.. Therefore, 'we need to know where the funds from the customer's deposits are coming from' I cannot see how that would have applied here.. I understand that it may come from a withdrawal limit but this still just seems like it could be done better...
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
Hello Everyone!

There has been a lot of interests towards this topic since it was introduced in igaming and given the nature of the documents requested, I understand it's a controversial subject which can cause a bit stir and confusion as it is a relatively new regulation in the online casino industry. Our goal is to make it as a painless and smooth process to the customer as possible since this is something that cannot be neglected.

We are obligated to verify customers Source of Wealth due to the UKGC regulations stating we need to know where the funds from the customer's deposits are coming from. We also need to follow the Responsible Gaming guidelines and ensure player's safety which may also lead for request of SOW related documents.

Being a fully licenced and responsible casino operator, we are also required to comply with certain regulatory requirements, as per our obligation to both EU and national requirements.



You are correct when it comes “where deposits and withdrawals reach 2.000 Euro” following the UKGC regulations, we are entitled to request SOW if the AML threshold when this threshold is met. If this threshold is met, that's when we ask for the Source of Wealth questionnaire, possibly also Source of Funds documents such as payslips, work contracts, a sale of properties or similar to maintain the player safety of our players.

Source of Wealth Questionnaire may trigger on deposit and also withdrawals for a lifetime amount when it reaches the threshold or any deposits/withdrawals, as this is a new procedure that started last year which then allows us to request any SoW documents/questionnaires from players for their safety.

The Source of Wealth is mostly asked for UK players, in order to make sure there are players who're not playing if they're loaning funds, in debt, unemployed with no income, low salary, or on welfare.

This is something the UKGC has ruled which we need to follow in order to be able to operate in the United Kingdom.

I could disagree with this. 2000 Euro you need to request KYC, not SOW. If you give player freespins without deposit, there is no need to trigger SOW in such a case. Been going through MGA/UKGC requirements enough (yes, it's fckin booring and quite many pages how you make ongoing risk assessment).

As stated earlier in many topics, at least MGA clearly states that you can use rolling 180 days period when counting these triggers, also what been asking from UKGC, this really is not such situation when that would have to be requested, there is no reason why you couldn't in this specific scenario pay out this amount of withdrawal and then trigger SOW questionnaire when person logging in to account next time, would like to see where that is stated, can't find it anywhere nor got it answer from UKGC.

TBH, GIG brands have been related quite many topics around this subject, i don't really think that all other operators are breaking rules and getting big fines. Why even give freespins to person who is this near to (under £100) about your SOW trigger? Don't find it really great practice and there would be loads to improve instead of "Computer says no" but bit common sense where this is great example.

You have huge amount of brands, white labels included which cause you loads of these triggers, but user experience how you trigger these could be better and still compliant with UKGC.
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
Hello Everyone!

There has been a lot of interests towards this topic since it was introduced in igaming and given the nature of the documents requested, I understand it's a controversial subject which can cause a bit stir and confusion as it is a relatively new regulation in the online casino industry. Our goal is to make it as a painless and smooth process to the customer as possible since this is something that cannot be neglected.

We are obligated to verify customers Source of Wealth due to the UKGC regulations stating we need to know where the funds from the customer's deposits are coming from. We also need to follow the Responsible Gaming guidelines and ensure player's safety which may also lead for request of SOW related documents.

Being a fully licenced and responsible casino operator, we are also required to comply with certain regulatory requirements, as per our obligation to both EU and national requirements.



You are correct when it comes “where deposits and withdrawals reach 2.000 Euro” following the UKGC regulations, we are entitled to request SOW if the AML threshold when this threshold is met. If this threshold is met, that's when we ask for the Source of Wealth questionnaire, possibly also Source of Funds documents such as payslips, work contracts, a sale of properties or similar to maintain the player safety of our players.

Source of Wealth Questionnaire may trigger on deposit and also withdrawals for a lifetime amount when it reaches the threshold or any deposits/withdrawals, as this is a new procedure that started last year which then allows us to request any SoW documents/questionnaires from players for their safety.

The Source of Wealth is mostly asked for UK players, in order to make sure there are players who're not playing if they're loaning funds, in debt, unemployed with no income, low salary, or on welfare.

This is something the UKGC has ruled which we need to follow in order to be able to operate in the United Kingdom.

I'm sorry but most of what you say is incorrect. You might want to go and read the actual documentation issued by the ukgc regarding money laundering regulations as your interpretation is wrong.
 
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