Poll Source of Wealth poll: How do the SOW requirements affect you?

How do the SOW requirements affect you?

  • I don't like the intrusiveness and play at casinos that DO NOT require SOW.

    Votes: 56 36.6%
  • I don't like the intrusiveness but still play the same at casinos that require SOW.

    Votes: 16 10.5%
  • I don't like the intrusiveness but still play at casinos that require SOW - but play less.

    Votes: 20 13.1%
  • I don't mind. I play the same.

    Votes: 8 5.2%
  • I don't mind, and I play more now.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I've never been asked and I am in the EU/UK

    Votes: 37 24.2%
  • I've never been asked and I am outside the EU/UK

    Votes: 16 10.5%

  • Total voters
    153

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
Well instead of asking post deposit where did the funds come from? Ask pre deposit, where are they going to come from?
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
Well instead of asking post deposit where did the funds come from? Ask pre deposit, where are they going to come from?
Because thats asking someone to predict the future and wouldn't solve anything. How would that work? Show a bank account with £1000 and the casino decides you can play with that. Then you deposit £500 in a different casino, win £10000, and once you hit the £1000 the first casino said you could deposit, you can't deposit more unless you go through another SoW, which defeats the object of the first one.
Or you do the same, then spend the grand, and pay in a grand in your illegal earnings, use that in the casino instead. They would have to do a SoW on every deposit in that case.

Or the current system where you make transactions and (this is what they should be doing) if they feel you are a high risk of being involved in illegal activity, then request a SoW and check the funds you have used were legitimate.
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
You have to show payslips to prove your earnings or where the £1,000 has come from. SOW is different to AML (isn’t it?) but I see how the 2 are very connected. SOW is primarily to see if gambling is an affordable commodity or so I thought and secondly that the funds are legit.

Perhaps I am wrong there. Either way, don’t you think £10k is a very large amount to accept before checks are done?
 

johnnymcc1966

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Location
United Kingdom
You have to show payslips to prove your earnings or where the £1,000 has come from. SOW is different to AML (isn’t it?) but I see how the 2 are very connected. SOW is primarily to see if gambling is an affordable commodity or so I thought and secondly that the funds are legit.

Perhaps I am wrong there. Either way, don’t you think £10k is a very large amount to accept before checks are done?
'Affordable' is wholly up to an individual and is their own personal choice. Its also not unusual for couples to have different bank accounts so what is showing in one bank account doesn't show how much somebody has available to spend. If a person is depositing roughly the same amounts,I tend to stick to between £10-£30 then why do they need to provide any more proof than they already have?
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
'Affordable' is wholly up to an individual and is their own personal choice.
Not sure that’s true? If you submitted a bank statement that showed you were regularly making deposits from an overdraft facility, even if yourself and the bank were okay with it, a Casino following RG and DD would close your account.
 

Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
Cheshire
Not sure that’s true? If you submitted a bank statement that showed you were regularly making deposits from an overdraft facility, even if yourself and the bank were okay with it, a Casino following RG and DD would close your account.
I agree with Johnny. We are far too nanny state these days. It SHOULD be up to an individual to manage their finances accordingly, not have them micromanaged by others. If a bank has agreed a credit facility with an individual then the relationship is between that individual and the bank. You have to pay it back the same whether you spend it on a pack of cigs and 2 bottles of vodka or a session on Gems Bonanza!

Gambling is meant to be treated as a form of entertainment...so what's the difference between someone going the cinema and paying out of an overdraft and someone making a casino deposit out of an overdraft? If they are both for entertainment purposes there is no difference!
 
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snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
The difference being tobacconists and off-licences do not have an obligation to fulfil, in asking whether it’s affordable, whereas Casinos do. I am not for it by any means but if that’s the law, then.......
 

Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
Cheshire
The difference being tobacconists and off-licences do not have an obligation to fulfil, in asking whether it’s affordable, whereas Casinos do. I am not for it by any means but if that’s the law, then.......
Well yeah this is why we're discussing the absurdity of the whole thing (even if the RG issue is digressing somewhat from the original discourse)!
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
You have to show payslips to prove your earnings or where the £1,000 has come from. SOW is different to AML (isn’t it?) but I see how the 2 are very connected. SOW is primarily to see if gambling is an affordable commodity or so I thought and secondly that the funds are legit.

Perhaps I am wrong there. Either way, don’t you think £10k is a very large amount to accept before checks are done?
They get confused, but as you mentioned AML in your first post about it, I presumed thats what you were meaning. Usually the checks that casinos use to withhold winnings are AML. If your brother sends you £50, then that shouldn't be an affordable gambling issue, it could be a ML issue though, particularly if there were loads of deposits.
RG should really look at your balance, income, outgoings, then make a decision on what you can afford
AML should look at where the funds originate.
They are separate checks, or should be anyway.

Regarding the £10k, thats why there shouldn't be hard limits. If a casino has done an RG affordability check and saw you won £10 million on the Euromillions a month ago, then £10k is nothing, and should not trigger an AML check.
On the other hand, if you are on benefits and hit £10k, then it might.

However, I've had some accounts for almost 20 years, I was one of the first Bet365 customers. I don't use them very much as I got limited pretty quickly lol, but am probably close to around £10k in deposits and withdrawals. Do you think £10k turnover is a large amount over 20 years? It's about £9.60 a week, and bear in mind, all the limits casinos stick on accounts are turnover, not deposits. So if you deposit a tenner and (somehow) win £10k, then it will trigger the check, do you think it should?

Thats why it should be risk based, not hard limits. Someone who deposits £10000 the day they open an account, plays it through once on roulette then withdraws 95% of it 2 hours later is clearly more of a risk than me at Bet365, yet we would be treated the same if all casinos used that hard limit.
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
I sent Casumo, every bit of SOW they asked for. My withdrawals over 4 years were about £500 above my deposits at around 11 odd thousand. None of my money was or is laundered and my bank statements for the 3 months I sent showed more money withdrawn than deposited.

In all honesty, they would have probably got that bit of profit back quite quickly and more but they closed my account. The only reasons (and they didn’t and wouldn’t say why) could have been that, I wasn’t the type of customer they wanted OR because the amount of cash flowing through the account (even though I was winning) was deemed irresponsible.
 

Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
Cheshire
I sent Casumo, every bit of SOW they asked for. My withdrawals over 4 years were about £500 above my deposits at around 11 odd thousand. None of my money was or is laundered and my bank statements for the 3 months I sent showed more money withdrawn than deposited.

In all honesty, they would have probably got that bit of profit back quite quickly and more but they closed my account. The only reasons (and they didn’t and wouldn’t say why) could have been that, I wasn’t the type of customer they wanted OR because the amount of cash flowing through the account (even though I was winning) was deemed irresponsible.
They are notorious on here and pretty sure they have been taken off the accredited list for giving people the run around with withdrawals etc.

Don't think we can really look to that lot for business advice and tips :p
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
They are notorious on here and pretty sure they have been taken off the accredited list for giving people the run around with withdrawals etc.

Don't think we can really look to that lot for business advice and tips :p
I am sure they have but even though I was winning, it still appeared irresponsible as I had as many as 500 deposits a month at 15 plus Casinos. My withdrawals covered it plus a bit but most of that money was just being recycled. Looks dodgy as hell on the face of it but it was nothing more than the explanation I have given.
 

Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
Cheshire
I am sure they have but even though I was winning, it still appeared irresponsible as I had as many as 500 deposits a month at 15 plus Casinos. My withdrawals covered it plus a bit but most of that money was just being recycled. Looks dodgy as hell on the face of it but it was nothing more than the explanation I have given.
Yeah I get you. This is it, most gamblers will recycle funds...very few just take the withdrawal and never deposit again lol.
 

shapesy

Full Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2012
Location
liverpool
Being in the UK and only using the big UK sites i had never been asked until a few weeks ago. on logging in to Betvictor i was greeted with a message asking for job and salary, Was easy to complete but has put me off depositing there again incase of more intusive questions. I have had the account for over a decade and deposit no more than 100 monthly
 

Rubyslippers

Registered
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Location
ENGLAND
virtually stopped playing altogether after playing online for 20 years , i find new rules very intrusive , and i would never play on a MGA regulated site because they "dont regulate " and do not ringfence players funds , tens of millions of euros/£ have been stolen by shady operators over the last 10 years under MGA licence and MGA have done absolutely nothing to help (most of time they know a licensee is in dire straits but allow players to keep depositing ) but when there is a problem MGA just sweep it under the carpet , there is no one to turn to for help , i know several players who have lost 50k euro + and hundreds who have lost between 1k-5k ( this was just in the everleaf/MGA scandal a few years back)
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
"I don't like the intrusiveness and play at casinos that DO NOT require SOW." 34% so far - which goes to show that the UK (and MGA market as well) is hemorrhaging. Regulators and compliance folks need to come to terms with reality and find and another solution to "protect players from harm" - this obviously is not working.

You are not protecting anyone from harm when you are driving 34% of your player base to unlicensed offshore clip-shot-joints. Casinos like Red Lion Casino, Bronze Casino, Cozyno, et al, that target problem gamblers are thriving in this market of over-handed protectionism.

Online casinos should be mimicking their brick and mortar brethren - where are the SOW requests there? Much of this has to do with the rare occurrences (but widely publicized) accounts of people who had tragically delved into their corporate business accounts, kids' college funds, retirement savings, etc. and lost it all. I sincerely understand the grief and the need to prevent these horrible episodes, but this is like cutting off your nose in spite of your face. Source of Wealth requests are just not working to solve this.

I personally would never submit any source of wealth docs. The only entity that gets this info from me is the federal tax office, not some online business where all I want to do is chill out and play some slot games or video poker.

It needs to be made clear that all players have a choice whether or not to submit SOW docs. Just because you're in the UK doesn't mean that you have to abide by any source of wealth requirement - a 5 second Google search will solve the issue for anti-SOWers. And these players are the ones who will be placing themselves into harms way. They have a choice between the reputable BGO casino which is properly run and abides by the regs of the UKGC, or skip it and click the link to
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. It's their choice, not the MGA's or the UKGC's.

It is a fact, and we have the screenshots to prove it, that those offshore entities PREY on these players. Players who admittedly are on Gamstop are welcomed with open arms at these despicable websites. These casinos have no right or any need to require any source of wealth. All they want is action at their crooked slot games, and another round of Champagne at lunch time. It's a rogue casino operator's dream come true.
 
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Cogge

Full Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Location
Malta
For those of you asking for the MGA rules:

Google for MGA's Implementing-Procedures-Part-II_Remote-Gaming.pdf if you want to read it in full, but the essence for KYC and SOW is as follows:

Each Licensee is required to present their own Customer Risk Assessment procedure during the license application procedure. This is what varies from Licensee to Licensee, which then affects if you as a player will fall into the Low, Medium or High Risk bucket. In this Risk Assessment, the casino uses things like Deposit amounts, Deposit Frequency, Games played, Game play patterns, Payment methods used, Withdrawal patterns etc to come up with a Risk Level for each player.
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colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
Exactly. There is absolutely nothing in that customer journey flow chart that suggests hard limits should be used. Customers should be placed into low/meduim/high risk group when assessed then a decision on if a SoW is required should be made. We see time and time again, casinos doing SoW on players who are, clearly, low risk.
 

HadEnough

Newbie member
Joined
May 31, 2021
"I personally would never submit any source of wealth docs. The only entity that gets this info from me is the federal tax office, not some online business where all I want to do is chill out and play some slot games or video poker."

100% agree here. Any request for personal info is an immediate closed account from me. I have a couple of accounts that I've had for years, so I'll probably never ever try anyone else's offering from now on. In these days of ID theft they want me to send personal and sensitive info to some corporate grunt on the end of an email address who I don't know from Adam and with the added icing on the cake that many are offshore? It ain't happening. I did networking and security in the enterprise for thousands of users for 14 years and I don't trust anybody. Dear casino's, give me proof that you're running AD with endpoint control and DLP and even then I probably won't trust you.

The AML excuse is laughable when billions were laundered through all the major banks last year. For an online casino it really can't be that difficult to detect ML through patterns. It seems that rules are only for the little people these days.

Some of us are old enough to remember when we lived in a free country without nanny and every tom, dick and harry prying and spying into everything we do.
 
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