Your Input Please Source of Income Requests

Could you easily provide Source of Income if requested by a casino?

  • Yes, get a paycheque or pension directly to my bank account

    Votes: 29 44.6%
  • Yes, but not easily. Have had a winfall/accident settlement/inheritance.

    Votes: 2 3.1%
  • Maybe. I get help from family. Spouse/parent/children, whatever.

    Votes: 7 10.8%
  • No. I'm self employed, would be a lot of work.

    Votes: 16 24.6%
  • No. Impossible. Sharing my business details would breach business agreements

    Votes: 11 16.9%

  • Total voters
    65
  • Poll closed .

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Let me preface this by saying I'm not EU, and last I asked, it did not apply to a casino's non-EU customers. Does not mean it won't happy to me.

We are seeing Guts telling ALL customers to expect this.

I think this poll could be useful to Casinos, so I hope you pay attention.

I'm not asking if you would comply, or your whole feelings on the issue. We all feel pretty strongly I think.

But if you could.

About 56% of Canadians between 17 and 64 had 30 or more hours of paid work for an employer. Which leaves a large number of players that don't fit that.

Providing documents at all can be a major pain. Difficulty taking clear enough pictures, size of attachments, uploading files, security issues.

For non-casino related issues, I'll be spending a good amount of time this weekend finding Estate documents dating back to 1990. So, while possible, would not be easy.

And don't get me started on casinos not being happy with the PDF of your bank statement from your banking site, but insisting on a hard copy, with all four edges.

So after my rant, I'm hoping you will restrain yourselves a little.
 

mcgameboy

NEVER GO FULL WOKETARD
CAG
mm2
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Location
Belfast
Damn Jazzy, I think you're asking too much of me. Once I go into rant mode, it takes a while for me to find the "off" switch.

OK, deep breaths. Objective non-ranty mode on.

I chose the first option "Yes. I get a paycheck paid directly to my bank account".

As for wanting to provide the information...well, that depends on a number of things.

1. Can I send these docs via secure upload? If not, it's Goodnight Vienna. There is just far too much identity theft around for me to want to put myself at Rizk (oops, bad typo :p) of getting burned like that.

2. How much of the information on my bank statement are they wanting to see? If it is ONLY to see evidence that I have legitimate money coming in via gainful employment, a tax rebate issued by HMRC, or even casino winnings*, then maybe I am willing to comply. But if they want to see chapter and verse, including the updated balance after each and every transaction, then no. Not a fucking chance. Casinos do not have the right to know my every move, income or expenditure-wise. The day a casino thinks it can appoint itself as some kind of intrusion Nazi, I'm as good as gone and I'll happily close the door on my way out.

* I put an asterisk beside casino winnings (I suppose I should include casino deposits as well) because I have my suspicions that a casino could be very willing to use my gambling activity/expenditure against me. Can I fully trust a casino to interpret any information that I divulge in a fair manner? Hmm, not too sure on that one, I'm afraid to say.

FWIW, I think GUTS are going about this in the right way, at least they are restricting your ability to deposit as well as your ability to withdraw.
I can at least give them credit for wanting to prioritise getting their compliance right above taking deposits.

But the way Rizk are going about it (if Deeplay's case is anything to go by) is just out and out rogue behaviour. Compliance my ass. No common sense employed. No ethics on display. Hiding behind a smokescreen to deny a player winnings. Deliberately going out of their way to put up more obstacles, when they should be looking for reasonable compromises and ways to knock said obstacles down. In short, they are guilty of THEFT AND FRAUD. Frankly, it's not that dissimilar to the shady tactics that those scam artists at Every Matrix used with regard to SE. Take my money first, withhold winnings later. What really baffles me is that this kind of behaviour is coming from a casino that holds the joint-highest CM rating on the Accredited Casinos list. So why are they behaving like some clip joint with a cup of cocoa licence that couldn't be more worthless if it was written on a sheet of USED bog roll? I don't believe for one second that VS or Trada would behave like this.
 
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brianmon

Ueber Meister
webby
mm4
Joined
May 22, 2013
Location
Cumbria
FWIW, I think GUTS are going about this in the right way, at least they are restricting your ability to deposit as well as your ability to withdraw.
I can at least give them credit for wanting to prioritise getting their compliance right above taking deposits.


But the way Rizk are going about it (if Deeplay's case is anything to go by) is just out and out rogue behaviour. Compliance my ass. No common sense employed. No ethics on display. Hiding behind a smokescreen to deny a player winnings. Deliberately going out of their way to put up more obstacles, when they should be looking for reasonable compromises and ways to knock said obstacles down. In short, they are guilty of THEFT AND FRAUD. Frankly, it's not that dissimilar to the shady tactics that those scam artists at Every Matrix used with regard to SE. Take my money first, withhold winnings later. What really baffles me is that this kind of behaviour is coming from a casino that holds the joint-highest CM rating on the Accredited Casinos list. So why are they behaving like some clip joint with a cup of cocoa licence that couldn't be more worthless if it was written on a sheet of USED bog roll? I don't believe for one second that VS or Trada would behave like this.

How can Guts be doing it correctly, by restricting deposits, yet Rizk can't do that?
They're on the same platform, surely the IT infrastructure is the same for both sites.
 

mcgameboy

NEVER GO FULL WOKETARD
CAG
mm2
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Location
Belfast
How can Guts be doing it correctly, by restricting deposits, yet Rizk can't do that?
They're on the same platform, surely the IT infrastructure is the same for both sites.

Well I really don't know. I thought it would have been a piece of cake for Rizk to follow the exact same path that GUTS are going down.
Frankly, I'm surprised that they aren't doing so. It makes no sense to me at all.

I too would have assumed the IT infrastructure would be the same for both sites. I guess it's not.

It's strange, because I was under the impression that Rizk was the more organised and more polished of the two.
But on this issue, GUTS at least appear to have a plan in place, while Rizk have got no plan at all.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
I went through this at Casumo and that is the problem - IF you tend to stick to one or two casinos with quick processing like I do then you will pretty quickly accumulate enough transactions to trigger this crapola. In answer to the above, I had to submit 6 months unedited bank statements with numerous affiliate payments showing plus Neteller payments and other ID/bills. This took around an hour online and bits kept being rejected and it was only because the excellent ambassador stayed with me for the whole time and acted as a go-between that I eventually completed it and was paid. This was despite the fact I know some of the guys personally and they know how I earn money.

Now I play mainly at Trada and haven't yet had a request, again I know their people personally and they know from where my income derives so maybe common sense will prevail, after all they pay me some of it!

Trust me, you really don't want to go through this nonsense, there surely must be a better way. I also know it happened to one of the admin here on CM too.
 

JGslots

Ueber Meister
webmeister
PABinit
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Location
Wales
Would it not make more sense to trigger this SOW if say a user was only turning their deposit over once or twice regularly.

It's never going to be an easy process if they want a full paper trail of banking from hundreds/thousands of users.

Rob :)
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
Well I really don't know. I thought it would have been a piece of cake for Rizk to follow the exact same path that GUTS are going down.
Frankly, I'm surprised that they aren't doing so. It makes no sense to me at all.

I too would have assumed the IT infrastructure would be the same for both sites. I guess it's not.

It's strange, because I was under the impression that Rizk was the more organised and more polished of the two.
But on this issue, GUTS at least appear to have a plan in place, while Rizk have got no plan at all.

I thought what Guts would want now is almost the same as Videoslots sent out to all of their uk customers a while ago. Just a form to fill in.
They will still have to do the same verfications for SoW's as all the other casinos are, and if I don't remember wrong some people have already done that.

I spoke to another rep yesterday who told me it will get even worse, and ukgc will ask for even more, before it will get better.


When it comes to me and verification if Sweden will ask for the same when it gets regulated here, then I will stop playing.
I will not send my documents in even if I wouldn't have any problems doing it, and that's it.
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
I thought what Guts would want now is almost the same as Videoslots sent out to all of their uk customers a while ago. Just a form to fill in.
They will still have to do the same verfications for SoW's as all the other casinos are, and if I don't remember wrong some people have already done that.

I spoke to another rep yesterday who told me it will get even worse, and ukgc will ask for even more, before it will get better.


When it comes to me and verification if Sweden will ask for the same when it gets regulated here, then I will stop playing.
I will not send my documents in even if I wouldn't have any problems doing it, and that's it.

Regarding the AML side (not RG) the UKGC haven't actually asked for anything, they have provided guidance on how to comply with the EU directive. However, I don't think there is anything saying a casino has to actually follow that guidance, only that they follow the law.
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
Regarding the AML side (not RG) the UKGC haven't actually asked for anything, they have provided guidance on how to comply with the EU directive. However, I don't think there is anything saying a casino has to actually follow that guidance, only that they follow the law.

But if anything happens and the casinos can't show that they have done all in their power to prevent a crime, then ukgc will probably not care about the law. They will claim that the casino did wrong and should have known better. A nice fine and maybe removal of their license. I guess they are scared as hell of doing things wrong.
Just my thoughts. I have no idea really :)
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
But if anything happens and the casinos can't show that they have done all in their power to prevent a crime, then ukgc will probably not care about the law. They will claim that the casino did wrong and should have known better. A nice fine and maybe removal of their license. I guess they are scared as hell of doing things wrong.
Just my thoughts. I have no idea really :)

Well if the casino don't have a lawyer who can beat the UKGC ignoring the law, then they don't deserve a license. :)
 

Tirilej

Still a Lady
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Sweden
Well if the casino don't have a lawyer who can beat the UKGC ignoring the law, then they don't deserve a license. :)

But isn't the ukgc asking casinos to do more checks than what the law is asking them to do. I thought that was the problem. That they more or less are telling casinos to do this and that but not telling them how to do it.
No matter what the law says it's still ukgc who decides who will get fined and who will get to lose their license.
 

colinsunderland

Experienced Member
webmeister
MM
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
I went through this at Casumo and that is the problem - IF you tend to stick to one or two casinos with quick processing like I do then you will pretty quickly accumulate enough transactions to trigger this crapola. In answer to the above, I had to submit 6 months unedited bank statements with numerous affiliate payments showing plus Neteller payments and other ID/bills.

This is where I have a massive problem. You are likely in breach of your affiliate agreement for doing that, and in this climate they use any excuse to close you down. There is not a chance in hell any casino is getting unedited bank statements showing incoming affiliate payments from me.
 

Captain Rizk

Experienced Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2015
Location
Malta
Well I really don't know. I thought it would have been a piece of cake for Rizk to follow the exact same path that GUTS are going down.
Frankly, I'm surprised that they aren't doing so. It makes no sense to me at all.

I too would have assumed the IT infrastructure would be the same for both sites. I guess it's not.

It's strange, because I was under the impression that Rizk was the more organised and more polished of the two.
But on this issue, GUTS at least appear to have a plan in place, while Rizk have got no plan at all.

It is purely a timing issue, when rolling out functionality like this you enable it on a site by site basis and our turn comes next week.
 

goatwack

Get dunked, big buns!
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
I agree that Money Laundering probes should only relate to the deposit in question, if over a suspicious amount to trigger investigating.

And what's to say post verification I'm approved and subsequently embark on a money laundering spree. Are they to ask me to provide 6 month money trails for every session :laugh:

More holes than Swiss cheese
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
This is where I have a massive problem. You are likely in breach of your affiliate agreement for doing that, and in this climate they use any excuse to close you down. There is not a chance in hell any casino is getting unedited bank statements showing incoming affiliate payments from me.


Then pray you don't have a sizeable withdrawal pending when asked for them.
 

goatwack

Get dunked, big buns!
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
Looks like I may have to rekindle my interest in stamp collecting, because this gambling lark is becoming some Orwellian wet dream :eek2:

"When the fun stops, STOP" I thought referred to the games themselves, not disproving one's criminal intent :confused::cool:
 

slotter999

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Location
UK
But isn't the ukgc asking casinos to do more checks than what the law is asking them to do. I thought that was the problem. That they more or less are telling casinos to do this and that but not telling them how to do it.
No matter what the law says it's still ukgc who decides who will get fined and who will get to lose their license.

In the United Kingdom we still live by the rule of law.

You can't arbitrarily revoke a license because you have an expectation that a company must so something beyond what the law demands - that in itself would in fact be unlawful.

@colinsunderland has made the point, repeatedly, again and again, but the problems being raised on this forum relating to SOW are problems caused by individual companies and their interpretation of the guidance. These problems are not directly caused by the UKGC. Constantly trying to blame the regulator seeks to absolve the individual casinos of their failures in my opinion.
 
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