So Sick - Police Shootings

I could go on and on about my thoughts on this, but I'll do my best to sum it up and keep it as short as possible.

The race issue - awfully tired of that - the only reason it's a race issue is because of the media, and people being too lazy to think for themselves. It is quite sad that race is still a big issue, even sadder is the fact that the media plays it up as much as possible to get more viewers and sell more papers. The only thing they are doing, other than doing whatever they can to make more money with no respect for humanity, is prolonging and forcing the race issue. It's too bad that so many buy into it, rather than doing some actual thinking of their own.

Police have a very tough job, sure some are bad, but you get that with every group/race/military/religion/political party/etc/etc. People become just as racist/prejudiced with these things, they use blanket statements and judgements, and then go riot about the fact that people use blanket statements and judgements.

If a cop shoots a suspect who is posing a threat to that officer and the people around them, why does it matter what color their skin is? Do many people just assume that since a white cop shoots a black person, it's race related? Isn't that being kinda racist? I just don't understand.

People are people, assholes are assholes, both come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, and colors. Look at any group and you will find stinky assholes that are making the rest look bad. If you own a company and an employee is doing a poor job and making the company look bad, you can simply fire that employee. Unfortunately you can't really do that with the assholes in your race or religion.

Can you really blame a cop, or judge them at all, for shooting a bit sooner rather than later? It's really easy to analyze everything after the fact and decide if they did the right thing or not, but try putting yourself in the same situation when you only have milliseconds to make the right choice. Sure they have training and you don't, but nobody is going to make the perfect split-second decision 100% of the time, I don't care how many years of training and experience you have.

As for these criminals that are resisting arrest and getting killed for doing so, I find it really hard to feel bad for them. If a person (especially someone who robs a store with a gun) is threatening the life of an armed and trained police officer, how do you think that person would handle you and your family if they broke in to your home or robbed the place you're working at? I would rather just not have that type of person around.

Yes some cops go rogue, and others should never be given a weapon or position of power in the first place, but it would take a really special kind of person to be a great cop for their whole career, and unfortunately demand outweighs the supply of that type of person by a long shot, all over the world.

This is just making it even more stressful and dangerous to be a cop than it already is. I can see a cop hesitating to shoot a suspect because they are a different color, and getting killed due to the hesitation. Would that ever make headlines? No, because the media would only be able to blame themselves and people in general.

I try to imagine myself in their job, or being in the military in a warzone, and man I don't think I'd last very long before becoming jaded at least, or just completely snapping. The good things these brave people do, and crap they have to go through that we never see or hear about, for months and years, and then have everyone turn on them for a momentary lapse of judgement that happened to be witnessed or caught on video... pretty harsh.

^Post was way longer than I intended, sorry - TLDR / Moral of my story: Before jumping on any bandwagon or reacting to any situation, or even opening your mouth to say something, do some actual thinking of your own first, please. Always keep in mind that the media will only report on things that they think will get more attention, and negative attention spreads faster. Oh, and racism shouldn't even be around in this day and age, but that goes back to the thinking on your own part.
 
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Came across this youtube video allegedly showing Michael Brown assaulting then robbing an old black man in Ferguson, Missouri.

Does this change your opinion in any way about the shooting? Does Michael Brown still look like a "gentle giant" after seeing this video?

First: No that isn't Michael Brown. There is suppose to be a video of him robbing an actual store owner but the video you linked isn't him.

Second: Watching the video you did link tears at my soul to a degree I can't even begin to describe. It shows a very good example of the type of people we deal with daily. What infuriates me even more so is the same wanna be thug in the video is the same cat whining and complaining about suing the police department when one of us put hands on him. I can't even begin to tell you the number of idiots who resist arrest then complain the whole way to the jail because something hurts. All of a sudden tough wanna be realizes he ain't so tough. I'm not impressed by someone who talks tough but needs his "boys" with him, and attacks someone who isn't willing or able to defend themselves. He's the same guy you can't count on when you're under fire be it oversees or homeland.

Sorry for the rant. It truly boils my blood. It took me a while just to write / re-write this in order to convey a bit of what I feel without going overboard.

Don't want an infraction :eek2: <~~~~ Attempt at a joke to calm down. Just realized I'm actually shaking as I type. *sigh* :mad:
 
First: No that isn't Michael Brown. There is suppose to be a video of him robbing an actual store owner but the video you linked isn't him.

Second: Watching the video you did link tears at my soul to a degree I can't even begin to describe. It shows a very good example of the type of people we deal with daily. What infuriates me even more so is the same wanna be thug in the video is the same cat whining and complaining about suing the police department when one of us put hands on him. I can't even begin to tell you the number of idiots who resist arrest then complain the whole way to the jail because something hurts. All of a sudden tough wanna be realizes he ain't so tough. I'm not impressed by someone who talks tough but needs his "boys" with him, and attacks someone who isn't willing or able to defend themselves. He's the same guy you can't count on when you're under fire be it oversees or homeland.

Sorry for the rant. It truly boils my blood. It took me a while just to write / re-write this in order to convey a bit of what I feel without going overboard.

Don't want an infraction :eek2: <~~~~ Attempt at a joke to calm down. Just realized I'm actually shaking as I type. *sigh* :mad:

Cleveland I respect you more than I can possibly convey. I also deeply appreciate the effort you put into this post. These are things I needed to hear. In the future, I will not blindly accept any information, irregardless of its origin.

Major kudos to you and Swampwitch. :notworthy
 
I have a lot of respect for the good cops out there. The problem is there are cops like this;
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and the rest of the cops don't appear to do anything to remove them from their ranks. The 'perp' in this video could have easily died right there. Cleveland, can you tell me if the story that they left this man handcuffed all the way to the hospital even though they knew he had committed no crime is true?

I am not meaning to dump this on you but this pisses me off as much as the other video pisses you off.
 
Cleveland I respect you more than I can possibly convey. I also deeply appreciate the effort you put into this post. These are things I needed to hear. In the future, I will not blindly accept any information, irregardless of its origin.

Major kudos to you and Swampwitch. :notworthy

Thank you for saying that :yahoo: :) .... It brought a smile to my face.

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I have a lot of respect for the good cops out there. The problem is there are cops like this;
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and the rest of the cops don't appear to do anything to remove them from their ranks. The 'perp' in this video could have easily died right there. Cleveland, can you tell me if the story that they left this man handcuffed all the way to the hospital even though they knew he had committed no crime is true?

I am not meaning to dump this on you but this pisses me off as much as the other video pisses you off.

Yes. But that being said I too also handcuff anyone that sits in my backseat. For example even if you ask for a ride somewhere I search you, then handcuff (after explaining why of course). It's a safety issue for me. Some officers disagree with it some agree. But people have produced weapons from the oddest of places. Despite searching them I'm always afraid of the chance of them having a small gun that I missed. So I figure the handcuffs will make it just a tad more difficult to get to it.

BUT

I hope you read this far down. I disagree with everything from start to finish assuming all that was seen on video and all that was reported by the department / officer / citizen, is true. One I'm not going to attempt to arrest an old man / women for a silly traffic violation even if it was a valid one. So for example we can arrest you for not using your turn signal to change lanes, or for not signaling 100 feet prior to making a turn. But does that mean I'm going to apply that law to a 76 year old man. NO. Those types of laws are handy for arresting / stopping someone we suspect of "other" things but I will leave it at that. I don't want to get side tracked. Point is for the life of me I don't know why the officer was handling the traffic stop in that manner.

On a side note: The old man clearly did resist arrest though :( . It shouldn't have went that far. The officer looked like he was attempting to "flex" his authority and the old man was going to stand for it. In case I'm not being clear: I think the officer was wrong. I wish the old man would have just accepted the arrest, and dealt with it through the proper channels.
 
Thank you for saying that :yahoo: :) .... It brought a smile to my face.

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Yes. But that being said I too also handcuff anyone that sits in my backseat. For example even if you ask for a ride somewhere I search you, then handcuff (after explaining why of course). It's a safety issue for me. Some officers disagree with it some agree. But people have produced weapons from the oddest of places. Despite searching them I'm always afraid of the chance of them having a small gun that I missed. So I figure the handcuffs will make it just a tad more difficult to get to it.

BUT

I hope you read this far down. I disagree with everything from start to finish assuming all that was seen on video and all that was reported by the department / officer / citizen, is true. One I'm not going to attempt to arrest an old man / women for a silly traffic violation even if it was a valid one. So for example we can arrest you for not using your turn signal to change lanes, or for not signaling 100 feet prior to making a turn. But does that mean I'm going to apply that law to a 76 year old man. NO. Those types of laws are handy for arresting / stopping someone we suspect of "other" things but I will leave it at that. I don't want to get side tracked. Point is for the life of me I don't know why the officer was handling the traffic stop in that manner.

On a side note: The old man clearly did resist arrest though :( . It shouldn't have went that far. The officer looked like he was attempting to "flex" his authority and the old man was going to stand for it. In case I'm not being clear: I think the officer was wrong. I wish the old man would have just accepted the arrest, and dealt with it through the proper channels.

OMG are you serious! The cop tried to pull the paper out of his hand and, probably by reflex, the old guy didn't let it go! Now I'm really pissed and I give up, you are right, the cops are always right and fuckin' citizens and grandfathers are worthless scum.Did he think the piuece of paper was a knife orv gun? I'm so done with this
 
It seems to me that this issue is similar to the attention media pay to the incidence of problem gambling - the percentage of gamblers with a problem is very low, but every time a compulsive gambler screws up or resorts to criminal activity to feed his or her addiction, the press seize on it and it becomes a major story...probably due to the family harm such behaviour causes.

Ignoring the billions of gambling transactions that take place on a continuing basis, this sort of treatment of isolated incidents tends to generate a more negative picture of gambling than is really the case, and the same happens in cases of police - civilian and racial confrontation imo.

That said, media coverage of police actions and for that matter politics, judicial matters and all issues affecting the freedoms we all cherish is an important element in the vigilance that is essential to avoid democracy turning into an overly restrictive political environment.

By exposing aberrant or corrupt official behaviour and activity, the media helps protect society from it, and therefore plays a watchdog as well as sensationalist and profit-making role. And even the media needs its own watchdogs and ombudsmen (and in the end the oversight of the courts in extreme cases) to make sure it behaves itself.

It is a complex interplay of the many elements that make up a free society, and perhaps one needs to have experienced a society that lacks or limits these fundamental protections to really appreciate their value.

I believe it's important not to obscure the general picture with extreme examples of negative behaviour. By all means highlight and address bad apples, but don't condemn the entire barrel.
 
I have a question for Cleveland: do you think cops in general would behave differently if there was no chance of them being fired? I understand being concerned for your safety - that's obvious - but you mentioned a lot of cops are afraid of making mistakes. Is this because they worry about their jobs?

The reason I'm asking this is because in Germany - at least in Bavaria - public officials, like a police officer, are tenured positions. It's a job until you retire, and there is no fear of being fired. One theory is that cops that can't be fired are not easily bribed or coerced into doing something that they ought not to do. I'm wondering if cops in the US would deal with their jobs differently if this was the case for them.

In Germany, I don't think anyone would attempt to even think about resisting arrest. Not that the German cops are a bunch of bad-asses, it's just not what people do here. In the US, there is the public adoration of the rebel spirit and "lookit me - I'm a gangsta", and the deluge of stupid-people-with-big-mouths soapbox platforms. Any daily dose of Youtube can confirm that.
 
My first Experience in Frankfurt

I have a question for Cleveland: do you think cops in general would behave differently if there was no chance of them being fired? I understand being concerned for your safety - that's obvious - but you mentioned a lot of cops are afraid of making mistakes. Is this because they worry about their jobs?

The reason I'm asking this is because in Germany - at least in Bavaria - public officials, like a police officer, are tenured positions. It's a job until you retire, and there is no fear of being fired. One theory is that cops that can't be fired are not easily bribed or coerced into doing something that they ought not to do. I'm wondering if cops in the US would deal with their jobs differently if this was the case for them.

In Germany, I don't think anyone would attempt to even think about resisting arrest. Not that the German cops are a bunch of bad-asses, it's just not what people do here. In the US, there is the public adoration of the rebel spirit and "lookit me - I'm a gangsta", and the deluge of stupid-people-with-big-mouths soapbox platforms. Any daily dose of Youtube can confirm that.


Hi Bryan,

I can say that cops in Bavaria are very very friendly when approaching cars and asking questions as opposed to other countries, its not in the culture of Germans to be against rules, they were cautious but no guns were pointed at us or nothing and we were near a park after 23:00 it was cold and dark and we were drinking beers. The only thing the officer told us after checking our papers was please don't litter and have a lovely evening. The cops can be firm when needed though I saw someone being chased out of Frankfurt Bahnhoff (train station) and he was stopped by a female motor cop, she pinned him to the ground quite quick and foreceful, guy didn't even see it coming.


But having experienced cops in the States as well as Greece and Cyprus I can say it really depends on the person you have in front of you, the situation/circumstances and most importantly YOUR attitude.


These guys made it a choice to risk their lives, the least we can do is be polite and understand their work hardship and make it easy on them. A smile and a hell can get you much farther than an attitude!
 
I've not read all of this thread, but IMO it's far too easy for these families to throw the race card.

It's obvious they'd be upset at the death of a loved one, But it doesn't happen when a black cop shoots a white kid in a predominantly white area.

As the OP has pointed out, if these people had done what they were told, I.E. not resisted arrest, not reached into pockets, not had imitation firearms, then I'm sure they would be here (albeit in jail) to tell the story.
 
OMG are you serious! The cop tried to pull the paper out of his hand and, probably by reflex, the old guy didn't let it go! Now I'm really pissed and I give up, you are right, the cops are always right and fuckin' citizens and grandfathers are worthless scum.Did he think the piuece of paper was a knife orv gun? I'm so done with this

Umm ok you clearly didn't read what I wrote OR you read it with frosted glasses that only allowed you to see what you wanted to see. I SAID the officer was wrong, I said it shouldn't have went that far as the officer was wrong from START to FINISH.

But yes he did resist arrest. The old man even said himself that he did in the video.

I never said the officer was correct in what he did. The officer escalated the incident. The officer handled the incident wrong. The officer let it go there. How many ways do I have to say it. But I'm glad you responded the way you did because truth be told no matter what an officer says, there will be some that finds wrong in it, and thus acts accordingly towards them.
 
I have a question for Cleveland: do you think cops in general would behave differently if there was no chance of them being fired? I understand being concerned for your safety - that's obvious - but you mentioned a lot of cops are afraid of making mistakes. Is this because they worry about their jobs?

The reason I'm asking this is because in Germany - at least in Bavaria - public officials, like a police officer, are tenured positions. It's a job until you retire, and there is no fear of being fired. One theory is that cops that can't be fired are not easily bribed or coerced into doing something that they ought not to do. I'm wondering if cops in the US would deal with their jobs differently if this was the case for them.

In Germany, I don't think anyone would attempt to even think about resisting arrest. Not that the German cops are a bunch of bad-asses, it's just not what people do here. In the US, there is the public adoration of the rebel spirit and "lookit me - I'm a gangsta", and the deluge of stupid-people-with-big-mouths soapbox platforms. Any daily dose of Youtube can confirm that.


That's an interesting question and idea. I never knew police anywhere were able to hold the position like that. I'm not sure how that would work out here. Well to be frank I would be scared to see the results out here because there are plenty of officers I would be afraid would abuse that type of system (In the United States).

Maybe if the hiring process was changed to be more vetting but even then as you alluded to, the mentality of American society is vastly different than many other countries. That same mentality applies to some of the officers as well. So I would be afraid that the bad apples would be even worst. Honestly as I type I realize I'm not sure how to answer this. It's so many other things that would need to be changed with America as a whole for that to work. I like the idea, especially for guys like me lol :D.

In regards to the mistakes part, yes it's a combination of that (afraid to lose their jobs), as well as afraid of public scrutiny, afraid of harming someone, or being harmed etc.

I guess I rambled and said all that to finally say I'm not sure how that would play out in America. I like the idea, just don't know if I trust the officers here to be given that level of job security. By here I mean America. Sounds sad, and to be clear I mean the few bad apples. I know the percentage of bad officers are very low compared to the number of good officers. I just would hate to see the bad be given more power for lack of a better word.

I dunno, interesting concept. Maybe I should move to Russia. :)
 
Cleveland,

I am sorry that I went off a bit.

As the few members of society that run towards danger instead of away I do have a lot of respect for the Police and the job that they do. FTR, in my 50 years on this planet I have been arrested a total of 1 time, for simple possession of a CDS when I was 18 and when the officer informed me that I was under arrest and that I should turn and put my hands behind my back that is exactly what I did because I knew I was guilty.

Anyways, you commented that Police are people too, please consider that ordinary people are people too.
 
It seems that anything one says about the incident, now is just pure 'political' but one thing that I must say, is that it is nothing but a tragedy and no one wins.

Cleveland, you have my sincere sympathies towards you and your colleagues at this time.

Stay safe.
 
Prayers to the two officers and their families who lost their lives tonight,according to CNN.

The 'Garner' shooter took his own life.

:( ... Another officer was shot during a traffic stop in a "drive by" style shooting in El Paso, Texas. An unrelated vehicle drove up and shot at the officer who was conducting an unrelated traffic stop on a different vehicle. Thankfully the officer recovered.

I opened my work email and saw another local "prays to family" email: An officer out here committed suicide last night. Another officer out here committed suicide approx 1 month ago. Many many many leave the watch by their own hands.

They are making it seem like the recent events led to this but fact is 4 officers were killed while on break in a coffee shop in Lakewood Washington back in 2009.

Sorry for venting but it needs to be said somewhere, and here is as good as any place. I'm curious how many citizens truly fill their lives are in danger or will be in danger when they go outside because of police. I wonder how many of them can eat at a restaurant and actually enjoy their entire meal without one thought to being shot.

Prays to their families. And of course the watch is covered.
 
Cleveland, you have my sincere sympathies towards you and your colleagues at this time.

Stay safe.


Just saw this part. I wanted to thank the post but I realize thanking post is disabled. I'm guessing since it's the political section of the forums. So saying thank you. It was a shock to see the post as I'm off right now. Pulled up my work email and saw all of the emails. Just gets old. I delete most without reading be it threats to law enforcement sent out by the higher up agencies or another death notice.
 
Cleveland, I have a friend on FaceBook, who was a Police Officer (now retired ..now a PI). She is also sick over this, of course.

I would like to know how you are able to deal with this stress. It's either the news of other PO's that have been killed on duty and the public's reaction towards the Police? It seems like an overload.
 
Cleveland, I have a friend on FaceBook, who was a Police Officer (now retired ..now a PI). She is also sick over this, of course.

I would like to know how you are able to deal with this stress. It's either the news of other PO's that have been killed on duty and the public's reaction towards the Police? It seems like an overload.

Well currently I'm playing video games with my wife :oops:. I happened to look over at the computer screen and decided to hit refresh. I wish I could say I was dealing with it well but I know my mindset has changed a lot over the years. It probably would be a lot worse though if I didn't continue doing the things I love / enjoy. For example I still play video games, watch cartoons and anime, still talk in a babyish voice (sometimes) with my wife, still curl up in ball with my head on her lap, etc. etc. Later tonight we will likely watch a movie. It's hard to remember to continue doing the things that you did before you joined the force. I didn't realize I had stopped until I finally had to go see first a psychologists followed by a psychiatrists. The psychiatrists ask me to list everything I enjoy to do. At the end he ask me how many things on my list did I do. I realized I didn't do one thing off my list anymore. So I try to make sure I do the things I enjoyed before I became an officer.

Many officers are afraid of how they will be labeled if they seek help. Partially why many end up taking their own lives. I wouldn't have gone but another older officer spoke with me as he knew something was wrong. He advised me that he had sought help in the past, and urged me to go.
 
Well currently I'm playing video games with my wife :oops:. I happened to look over at the computer screen and decided to hit refresh. I wish I could say I was dealing with it well but I know my mindset has changed a lot over the years. It probably would be a lot worse though if I didn't continue doing the things I love / enjoy. For example I still play video games, watch cartoons and anime, still talk in a babyish voice (sometimes) with my wife, still curl up in ball with my head on her lap, etc. etc. Later tonight we will likely watch a movie. It's hard to remember to continue doing the things that you did before you joined the force. I didn't realize I had stopped until I finally had to go see first a psychologists followed by a psychiatrists. The psychiatrists ask me to list everything I enjoy to do. At the end he ask me how many things on my list did I do. I realized I didn't do one thing off my list anymore. So I try to make sure I do the things I enjoyed before I became an officer.

Many officers are afraid of how they will be labeled if they seek help. Partially why many end up taking their own lives. I wouldn't have gone but another older officer spoke with me as he knew something was wrong. He advised me that he had sought help in the past, and urged me to go.

Keep being silly in your humor :)(baby voice..I do that a lot, too lol ). Sometimes life can be too 'vivid' and we do forget that this,too, shall pass.

I have had a lot of trauma in my past (just life issues growing up) and have learned after many years to cry, and then laugh and say that there is nothing I can do but what I can do. It is what it is.And move on.



Keep up with the councelling (that doesn't look right, the spelling but you know what I mean).

So? Did your wife win on the video game?

Keep being silly.:cool::p
 
So? Did your wife win on the video game?

She only beats me cause she cheats :oops:.

We were on the same team last night though. Was playing castle crashers. Pretty fun game :D:

 
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