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So many questions....

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by wanda5, Nov 14, 2003.

  1. wanda5

    wanda5 Dormant account

    I dont remember which post or postee wrote about how he/she seemed to win only when they were new to a casino. This really interested me because it sounded VERY familiar. So I did my own research and it may be purely coincedental (please decide for yourself) but I went back through about 8 casinos where I had done well with cashouts and in each one, it was in fact when I was brand spanking new that I had BIG cash outs! NEVER with the bonus's but within my first few large deposits. At two of the casinos I did notice that after spending $8-10K I finally won again: one was $1000 and the other was $1200. Another thing was that after getting those emails "you havent played at our casino in a while & we have missed you and put X amount in your account" I recall winning just enough to make me spend again. But thats just out of memory. What really made me curious is that I recently told yall about my $8,000 cash out right? Well I went back to the casino and with spending about $2000 in one week, I could not win a single thing. It was not like I could win even a little at a time to keep playing for a while, it was almost rediculous strait losses with even few little wins. In the big picture I spent $2000 & in that $2000 I won ONE time just over a hundred dollars and that was after spending $300 in one game on $1.25 to even $9 spins. Its like after my big cashout that one day, I was cursed. I am so curious to do more research about this and if anyone else wants to help me maybe we can do a little survey of our own some how by posting your wins and when right here. This just seems way too coincedental to sit right with me. No one i know or nothing I have read explains how the system of payment works or where our money goes, I have no idea what really goes on, I just trust and hope. It really bugs me that they make Price Coopers appear as if they "monitor" the casinos to keep them legit, when in actuality each casino SENDS a report TO THEM and they dont even have to check it or verify it, so a casino can say anything, and Price just lists it on thier site as if Price did some monthly check up, if I understand this correctly. I spend WAY too much money to not be curious about this. Its OUR money so I feel like we should at least know where it is going. When I asked this question here, I dont think it made sense the first time so I am going to explain it in simpler terms and I am sure you all have wondered about this as well and then some of you may KNOW the answer. First, there is one thing that has stuck in my head ever since I read it and really bugs me, Bryan had written somewhere about a guy who basically told him something like, "I only care about the new people who come to my casino" Well WHY?? Why would that matter?? Why would you NOT want to keep your customers happy and spending??? I think Bryan said he almost got into a fist fight with that guy (if that makes it sound any more familiar). Anyway, Lets take microgaming for instance,
    Lets pretend a new casino called "X casino" opens up today and many of us sign up and say one of us wins $150K at High Five slot machine, and another of us wins $150k at Cool buck the very day it opens AT that casino. Well that casino is brand new, and they only took in $50k themselves that day but that would not matter because a slot machine ONLY pays out what it has ALREADY made right? So my questions are: HOW in the world would this casino be able to report actual pay out percentages of thier games to Price????...& WHERE DOES OUR MONEY GO?? AND WHO IS HOLDING ALL OF THE MONEY? Doesnt it seem like there would HAVE to be ONE designated money holder that all the money goes to? And then when we win, the casino goes to that money holder and gets it to pay us with? This is so confusing, but I think we should know where our money is going. HOW does the casino make thier money, who pays them or do they only get to keep what they actually bring in? If they are only concerned about the new people winning, why is that? If the casinos are legit, why is thier no information on the web about how the whole internet gambling works like there is about Vegas slot machines & how they work?? And explain how one new casino can pay out $300K and report to Price that they pay out 98% in thier slots? The scary thing is that if they only care about NEW people than this money holder could easily PICK which casinos they are going to ALLOW the wins to go each day? Like the new ones perhaps? In Vegas, theres ONE actual slot machine so its easy to monitor if 20,000 people play and what the percentage of that ONE machine pays out. But we have NO idea if we are even winning 1% of what goes into one online game from all of the casinos. AND think about this: If there is ONE Cool Buck game that ALL of the casinos are connected to ALL of the casinos HAVE to make money from that ONE game, so how much are we really allowed to win, if some casinos didnt make much money that day, week or month? I just cant see how, with the hundreds of casinos with the same games supposedly being ALL connected, how can we go on such severe losing streaks when people all over the world are playing the SAME games. Its not the $2000 losing streak that I am even compairing but some months I have gone on $10K losing streak with NO cash outs...how is that possible? I mean it could just be me, just bad luck, and I am certainly not trying to bash the online casino industry, because I LOVE to gamble online, I just want to know because its really bugging me. So anyone who knows how it works, LET ME IN ON IT!! We spend about $5k per month on average gambling, thats just too much to have these questions in my head unanswered. Also you would think a casino would REALLY try to keep our business or tried to get our business back if we quit playing at thier casino but none have. Even after spending $20-$30K in ONE casino with no cash outs. They may send a "we miss you promo email" but that just doesnt seem like enough. UNLESS, it is true that somehow only the NEW people count. Another really strange thing is that we stopped getting any casino emails after we took two months off. NOW after the big cash out...we are being BOMBARDED with emails from casinos new and old, how did they get that info or know we were playing again? Thats another STRANGE coincedence. We at this board are doing the best we can, we do our research & share our information to try to keep from being taken. Maybe if we can really stick together and share more details in ONE specific place, maybe we wont make some mistakes that carelss people who do no research make. So if you are willing, please list anything that you can actually go back and look at, also future wins of when and where you won and how much you spent to get there. Lets just see if this is purely coincedental. What do yall think? I know theres a lot of questions in this one post, but I had to get it all out while it was fresh in my head.
  2. linda7

    linda7 Quit Gambling

    Hi Wanda,
    I have to agree with you. From my personal experience, I also win when I first play at a casino. However, if I win small (couple of hundred) I never cash out. I only cash out when I have a couple of thousand in my account. Do you do the same as I do? If you are up a few hundred do you just leave it there to play on?
    Also, I play heavily like you. I spend between 8K and 10K a month. I rarely cash out and its starting to bug me. It seems after a win and cashing out, that I never win at that casino again. Not even a few hits to keep me going.

    I think the only casino games that are connected are the progressives. Cash Splash, Treasure Nile, etc. As to who holds the money, I am as lost as you are. However, thats an excellent question and would love to know the answer myself.

  3. wanda5

    wanda5 Dormant account

    Hi Linda,
    Funny, we sound A LOT alike when it comes to our gambling! : )
    I am determined to figure something out to where I at least dont feel cheated & can have fun. Its too hard to fathom that after winning a good sum, we can go on such horrible losing streaks with so few wins. I get so mad after losing a strait $1000....it just seems unfair, so I pout and feel pissed, cheated and scammed. I know we cant win all of the time but the losses sometimes feel a bit unbelievable or rediculous. And YES, I never cash out anything under $2,000. I spend too much to cash out anything less to feel like I have actually gained something. Today I played at Platinum Club (where I won the $8000 and then lost about $4K this week already) and left there so pissed that I emailed them and asked them to close my account.
    After looking at my play check, I was just SICK. I had $1000... at $18 per spin on 5 wheel drive, I spun 21 times, I won $18 TOTAL! I dropped it down to $9 spun 14 times and won $9 TOTAL! Out of $504 and 35 spins, I won $27??? In two minutes! I ended up going to different games and still could not win a THING. I went back with a few hundred left to 5 wheel drive and again won nothing. I even deposited $50 MORE in and went back to 5 wheel drive and played $2.25 per spin and WON ZERO with the whole $50...not ONE single win. So, I am pouty and pissed. I dont mind losing, but when I cant even have any fun, at all, GRRRR. Anyway, how can I deposit $100 and play for hours winning and losing but play $1000 and lose it in minutes? Its just nuts!!!
    I am so mad that I lost that much, or played that much after recognizing that I have only won big being new to a casino. I would love to chat with you or even exchange emails and maybe we can do some comparing : )
    Email me any time
    This email is not visible to you.
  4. venetian

    venetian Dormant account

    hey girls! This is an interesting discussion. I too thought that I won more frequently on new casinos (new to me). Dice, Carnival and Grand Banks (before they became jerks and went slow pay). But I also noticed, especially on Carnival, that after cashing out 3-4X for several thousand each time that they stopped with the promotional emails and when I inquired about it, they said I could play there but was I was listed as a bonus abuser!!! I won't play where I am not wanted, I spend too much for that kind of treatment. This kind of thing has happened many times. I play I win then I no longer recieve emails. Hmmmm But lately I have jumped on new casinos and had no luck at all. Maybe it has to be a full moon, on a Tuesday, when you are wearing bunny slippers. Ha!
  5. cipher

    cipher Banned member - being a jerk

    Venetian, Wanda5 & Linda7 now that's got to be a deal made in heaven. In any event, I've read but admittedly only partly digested Wanda5's initial post, that's going to require a second reading. I will admit there is a lot of food for thought, a great many of those questions you've had I've had myself and who knows I may have something to add to this subject as well. Have good one girls.

  6. hhcfreebie

    hhcfreebie Dormant account

    Wanda I think you have very serious gambling problem. IMO, anyone who deposit more than 10% of their income into gambling is classified as "addicted gambler".
    I'll try to answer some of your questions.
    How can they calculate payout?
    Slot machine are NOT random, thus it's the worst games that you can play. Suppose they set payout rate to be 95%, which means for every $100 you played, you will loose $5. If you deposit $100 then play 10 times your deposit, it's very likely you will loose $50 and only have $50 left in your account. Not everyone will loose exactly $50 after playing $1000, but if you add their result together, or add up your result over a long time, the payout will approach the set value. (95% for this example)
    Where does your money goes? Here is what I know.
    For progressive slot machine, the payout is usually lower to compensate the processing fees among casinos. The money goes to the jackpot actually goes to a bank account, usually hold by a third party or the software company. When the jackpot is hit, the player is paid by this account. All the rest of the money goes to the casinos and casinos will pay you the small wins you hit.
    Why casinos only care about new players?
    There are several reasons for that. Existing players usually spent far less than new players. If a player can play a few years in one casino, chance is he has developed good self-control.
    New players also have far less resournce than old players. When they are screwed they might not know what they should do and have to bite the bullet, thus make them easier preys. Another reason new players spend far more than old players is because it's a new casino/games for them and they will play more (and loose more by doing so).
    To be honest, I am involved in this online gambling business in some way. While I appreciate your contribution to this industry, I really hate to see people loose more than they can afford because of their addiction. Talk to your friends and family and ask them for help and support. If it is necessary, ask a doctor for suggestions.
    Good luck.
  7. bewitch

    bewitch Dormant account

    Dear Wanda and Linda,

    hhcfreebie is really good at math. I believe his caculation even I had no idea how it work. LOL~

    I won over $2000 on slot at first 2 casino I joined when I started play at online casino at April. ( But I never cash out. Stupid me...) I got hooked on after long winer blue at New England. Luckily, I stop after I lost over $2000 and started to do more online research.

    Now I play Black Jack most of time and slots sometimes. Gambling is a very exciting but dangerous hobby. It's very lucky we can afford to play but you need to set the limit.

    You girls know I love you as good friends even we never meet (smile~). But I really care about you. Please enjoy this hobby and stay on TOP of it. Don't let it bite you as it happened to me before.

    Happy Holiday!

    (Message edited by bewitch on November 19, 2003)
  8. wanda5

    wanda5 Dormant account

    hhcfreebie, I had to giggle when I saw this...

    "Wanda I think you have very serious gambling problem. IMO, anyone who deposit more than 10% of their income into gambling is classified as "addicted gambler".

    Although I appreciate your concern and the information you provided, I would never spend more than I can afford, I'm too greedy and high maintenance to spend what would affect my lifestyle. As far as spending 10% of MY income, I don't even work, my husband gives me an allowance : ) So to some, what I spend may be a lot of money, but to me its deciding whether I will gamble this week or spend a few K on a few new clothing items from Dolce & Gabanna or my first love which is my ongoing love affair with SHOES. : ) I enjoy the thrill of gambling and being a spoiled housewife with no children (just a very needy pup) it does keep me home and out of the boutiques, which would cost me much more if I left the house more often lol. Now if you think I have a shopping addiction that would be more believable. If I had a serious gambling problem I don't think that would be able to choose the pair of Manolo Blahnik patent Mary Jane's (which I happen to be the highest bidder on eBay as of now) OVER my gambling : ) So you see, the money is going to go somewhere : ) If anyone knows where I can get help for my shoe addiction, that would be information I could really use!
    Also, in all fairness to the casinos, online and land based, I have defiantly won more than I have lost. Even recently, I cashed out $8000 and have spent $3000. I ONLY spend a lot or do BIG bets if I have cashed out a good sum. When I am on a losing streak, I get just pouty enough to quit for a while and I will start up again later.
    But don't worry, I have not started selling my jewelry or clothing or shoes (God forbid, not the shoes!) to support my gambling lol
    I guess in a way I sell my body for gambling money, but don't worry that's only to my husband, so I think that's ok. : )

    Hope that clears things up. Seeing someone post that "I" have a gambling problem just sounded funny. I know that I should not joke about this to anyone who does have a gambling addiction because that IS serious. I guess if you knew me you would understand.
    Anyway, I think its very sweet that even though you have an interest in the casinos, you would care enough to get involved or share information if you think someone has a problem with gambling. I am going to read your post again to absorb all of the information and answers to questions I have.

    I still don't understand where our money goes and it is so hard to explain my question, but one thing someone said was that all the progressives are linked together. So are the non progressives only going to pay out what actually goes into the specific game at the specific casino you are playing at? This is important to me because if there was a casino that I rarely hear about, I would assume that not many people play there, so I would assume that their slot machines would have very little money put in to them therefor, very little to pay outs. Just like land based, if you play at a casino that no one goes to, then the machines have less money in them, and would have lesser pay outs right? So wouldn't it make sense to ONLY play at casinos that have a lot of money going into them if they are in fact separate machines....Does that make sense grrrr lol its just so hard to explain. One more time ...OK i am at Jackpot City (online) I am playing "Reel Thunder" My friend Bewitch : ) is at The Gaming club playing "Reel Thunder" is all the money that we both are putting in go to the same pay outs (one account for the game Reel Thunder) OR can I only win what has actually been played at that game at Jackpot City and Bewitch can only win what money has gone into The Gaming Club? OR are they all connected and pooled together to where if "Reel Thunder" took in a total of $100,000 from all the casinos that day, that would be what they base their pay out percentages on. Also lets say Linda won the max on a royal flush on aces and faces poker at the gaming club, well if they were separate machines, I would not play aces and faces at the gaming club just after Linda won because I would assume its gonna be a while before it pays out again. DOES THAT MAKE MY QUESTION MAKE SENSE ??? lololol

    OK I am done now : ) One day I will get that question right lol!

  9. bewitch

    bewitch Dormant account

    LOL~ Wanda, I really enjoy reading your post. I always have to hold my breath and read it all at once.

    It sounds like shopping is a BIGGER problem to you. LOL It applies to all the women I know. I just spent $150 on some ladies need and gifts for families (told my hobby $70. White lie! ) and was yalled at already. Image I go shopping with you???

    Your needy baby looks very cute and won't talk back. It's much easier to deal with than the kids. Enjoy ~ !

    (Message edited by bewitch on November 19, 2003)
  10. hhcfreebie

    hhcfreebie Dormant account

    If the money has to go somewhere, then by all means spend them. :)
    As for the slot machine, payout is NOT effected by how much money the game/machine has. It's determined by random number generator.
    In land based casino if you hit something big in a slot machine and it doesn't have enough money to pay you. You can always call them up and the staff will pay you. The money they used to pay you is from the casino.
    In online casino, it doesn't matter how many people played on certain games. For example, all the money we lost in the gaming club, be it from black jack, slots or video poker, go to the casino's account. On the other hand, if we win we will be paid by the same account.
    Does it make any sense at all?
  11. wanda5

    wanda5 Dormant account

    ohhhhhhhh yuck :puke: that makes sense...I dont like it but it makes sense. When they did the payout percentages, I thought they meant that each machine pays out a percentage of what each machine takes in. It seemed more fair that way. I kinda wish I never asked lol. BUT now I know that its true that it NEVER has to even pay you a dime no matter how much you give it. YUCK YUCK YUCK! So much for trying to mastermind a scheme with my girlies here to try to figure out which machine was about to spill over. :twisted: LOL See, I thought it was like a cup, once full it spills over in spurts big and small.
    Knowing that makes it really scary, I could play at my favorite game all day and never win a thing. Guess I will need to come up wif another plan Girls ROFL :rofl:
  12. wanda5

    wanda5 Dormant account

    Bewitchy, You and I shopping together is probably a good recipe for divorce :D Kyle and I have always gotten along better since he started giving me an allowance, rather than him just watching me drain the bank accounts and credit cards wondering what I will spend and how much. I told him yesterday I needed a raise but when he asked why, I couldnt think of a good answer except, "Dont you love me?" But that didnt seem to work like it use to. :uhoh:
  13. bewitch

    bewitch Dormant account

    <,<, I told him yesterday I needed a raise but when he asked why, I couldnt think of a good answer except, "Dont you love me?" But that didnt seem to work like it use to.>,>,

    LMAO~ Kyle is like me and my hobby is like you! I am the one handle all the money including credit card, bank and investment. He is the one have to ask me for "entertainment" money....

    I like this because I have total control of the money, but also hate it because I have to make sure we are under budget every month.

    Have a good one. Have you ever try Black Jack ot Video porker games instead of slots???? But it sounds like you are making more than you spent. Good job!!!
  14. venetian

    venetian Dormant account

    WoW Wanda, you sent up quite a firestorm with you gaming habits!! Like you I play more than the average person,(okay so I play every night what's the big deal???) but I can afford to do so. It is my favorite hobby and I am lucky to say that I win more than I lose. I play video poker. I think you have to remember that an online casino is operated much like a land based casino with the rng in each machine. If a casino brings in a new bank of machines and one hits, it obviously has not had any play prior to yours but as a whole the casino has the house edge, therefore they are making money hand over fist and (hopefully) have the resources to pay winners while still taking in money to run the business. Like the old saying, those vegas casinos were not built on winners. However I don't know, if I am believing that an online casino can continue to operate if they continually run off the 'old' players. I think they may try to run off winners. They should take a page from Vegas and court the steady player, winning or not, as their referrals will build their business and keep them profitable. If they average a 95% payback with a large clientel they will have plenty of money to keep operating. All good business people know that a happy customer is also a loyal customer. If I am treated right I will send my friends and put the majority of my play with them. Okay...enough of that. I still need someone to tell me how to do a screen shot. I tried hitting the print screen key but nothing happened. What's the trick? And remember you are talking to a computer illiterate when you answer. Also because I am a new forum poster, tell me what lol means. I see it all the time and thought it was someone's name at first. Help the newbie out please!
  15. cipher

    cipher Banned member - being a jerk

    Wanda, think about it. The casinos go out of their ever loving mind in trying to insure that you only have one account per casino. Generally under the auspieces that they don't want to have bonus abusers.

    I'm of the mind that "bonus abuse" has very little if anything to do with the equation. The ability to keep constant and accurate tabs on their customers is much more important to a casino than any $100.00, $200.00 or even $500.00 first time bonus.

    Moreover, from the time you sign on with a Casino you can expect to be tracked ad infinitum (normally on a daily basis) until the day you die or probably long after one expires if the truth be known.

    No doubt, you've heard the phrase "knowledge is power" and that is exactly why most people who gamble lose. They're perfectly content to sit in front of a computer and play slots, keno, craps, roulette and blackjack as well as a myriad of other counsel games without having a clue about what's going on around them. But I'll guarantee you that any casino that's worth it's salt knows exactly whats happening with you as well as your account every second of the day and they would not have it any other way.

    Whether they be on-line or land based casino operators, they are pros at not only baiting the hook but setting the hook as well. Have a good one.

  16. kniepm

    kniepm Dormant account

    It seems to me that psychology and money management play a big role in this equation.

    When I am fresh off a hot streak, I start to think I have some kind of super mojo and can beat any casino and any game. Guess what? I'm usually wrong, end up losing a good portion of my lucky winnings and go to bed pissed at myself for being such a dumb ass.

    On the other hand, when I have been having a hard time coming out ahead, I play more conservatively, stick more closely to the money management strategies I use and come out with a better winning percentage.

    I'm much better off when I'm not trying to kill them, instead being satisfied with a small win and leaving (cash out, don't go back until the money is safely (?) in my NETeller account) when my luck seems to be turning.
  17. wanda5

    wanda5 Dormant account

    SOOOOO...how many of you felt guilty when I was accused of having a "very serious" gambling problem??? LOL I know a few of you who were ducking down in your chairs! :blush: AND a few of you who giggled.
    Whats funny is that I am 34 years old an for a few seconds I felt like a child in trouble and the first thing that came into my head was to point fingers (after growing up with 5 brothers and two sisters, I guess thats just what I was use to doing when i was in trouble ) I was thinking "BUT BUT BUT UM what about Linda?!What about Witchy!? Yell at them too!!" ROFL Oh and let me add Vene, Cyph, kniepm AND Bryan AND all my other post buddies to my finger pointing LOLOLOL :lolup: I have actually had to show that to a few friends and Kyle also got a good kick out of it too.

    OH Kniepm...
    "When I am fresh off a hot streak, I start to think I have some kind of super mojo and can beat any casino and any game. Guess what? I'm usually wrong, end up losing a good portion of my lucky winnings and go to bed pissed at myself for being such a dumb ass."

    Hmmm...I dont think I know what that feels like ROFL! Just kidding I think WE ALL can relate EXACTLY to that!
    vene, lol is Laugh out loud, kind of the cyber laugh I guess. ROFL is rolling on the floor laughing. As far as screen shots, Jinnia posted a great site a while back I believe its called "snap it" I got a new computer so I lost it but need to dl it again. Jin or Bewitchy, can you tell us again that great site download?

  18. linda7

    linda7 Quit Gambling


    You and I could be twins!!!! Before I had my children, shopping was my favorite thing, next to Atlantic City. When my daughter was born, it was a surprise (I did not want to know the sex before the birth). So on the way home from the hospital, I stopped at all these European Boutiques and bought 3700.00 worth of clothes in size 0-3 months. She outgrew them, before she could wear them (Rofl). When my girlfriend had her daughter, I bought them all over to her...she was hysterical. I then found a boutique that sold all hand made clothes, deorated with rhinestones, ribbons, etc. Every Saturday, I used to go to the boutique and buy whatever came in that was new. When I got pregnant to my son, the store owner said "Linda, I hope you have a boy...otherwise, your hubby will go broke...lol." Would you believe I am actually begging my daughter to learn to drive, only because I want to buy her a new car. My son has his picked out already...a Porsche Convertible...hahahaha. I spoil them for one reason Wanda, I got lucky and have two very respectful, loving kids. If they were not so good, they would get a butt kicking. While, I gamble alot...my kids already have their college money put aside, and I even have their wedding money (my son too, in case he needs it). When I got divorced from their dad, I hit him up real hard!!! He deserved it, trust me. Then I met my present husband. When we were together for about 6 months, he proposed. I immediately told him, dont ever expect me to ask for money...if I take anything its because I need it. He said okay. Poor guy has not been the same since.....LMAO!!!!
  19. bewitch

    bewitch Dormant account

    Here is how to do Screen Shot. After you click the "PrtScn SysRq", go to "Start" --<, "Programs" --<, "Accessories" then choose "paint". It will open the "paint" software on your computer, then push "Ctrl" and "V" at same time on your keyboard. (it's paste) Click "yes" when the little window pop up.

    You should see the screen shot show on the "paint" software. "Save" it to where you want it. I will suggest to use "jpg" instead of "bmp" (at the bottom of the save window, you can choose the file type) because bmp file take a lot of space if you want to post it or mail it.

    Let me know if you have any question. I never use "snap it". Jinnia probably know better!
  20. bewitch

    bewitch Dormant account

    Linda and Wanda,
    I want to open a casino along with Mall and Chinese home made cooking restaurant (I am a really good cook). Will you be my VIP? LOL~ I will probably loose money on casino BUT make tons of money on the Mall and the tips at restaurant.

    Linda, I believe you are a great Mom and very proud of your kids. You are always full of love and spirit. I am glad you spoil them to be good kids. (smile~) Gee, brand new Porsche Convertible??? I never even drive a new car!!! I need to have a talk with my hubby! LOL

    Wanda, I had bad emotional problem back in April-June. I played at the wrong casino and was very stress out with all the false charges. I moved to New England area and didn't know anyone with a newborn (with health problem then). It was after a long winter blue and I found online gambling. In fact, I don't even know how to play at first. LOL~ I quit for a while (Linda knew this) and SuperVegas brought me back with a $75 surprise bonus. I am in control since then and also make a small profit so far. Very lucky!

    We are not rich as you ladies, but we have a very good life. I have a two lovely kids, a nice hubby and a beautiful house plus enough investment for kids go to college and for us to retire at age 58. I am very happy. I involved with few organizations and saw a lot of people, especially kids, being through hard life. It's heart broken and make me more appreciate my life.

    Life is good to all of us here. May the Lady Luck stay with you all the time!

    (Message edited by bewitch on November 20, 2003)

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