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Slotsheaven/Mansion asking for Snail mail notarized Docs to Gibraltar from UK

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by The Prospect, Oct 17, 2016.

    Oct 17, 2016
  1. The Prospect

    The Prospect Full Member

    Location:
    UK
    Hey, I'm just looking for some advice. Hopefully some of the board members can help me out with a problem I've got..

    So previously I signed up to mansion casino a while back and I never had any troubles. I even won a couple of times, they paid me not a problem and I kept playing there probably spending most of the money I had withdrawn after all this they then invited me to casino.com and still no win there yet lol, and again they invited me to slotsheaven.com so I gave it ago once again and signed up and I've managed to win roughly just over 2.5k GBP.

    I am now getting emails from them asking for a notarized document? I've heard of a notarized document before but never really new what it was so I looked into it and how do they expect me to go and pay for that, as well as take a day off work mid week and find some travel to get there because from what I can see there aren't any in my area. I don't even know where the closest would be. I offered to get them a certified document which from what I can see is just as good as a notarized document and on the government website seems to be more than good enough to prove who i am.

    On top of all this they have asked me to post the document to "Post to Mansion Member Service, PO Box 1240, Gibraltar", so even if somehow it was possible for me to get what they need, which i don't know how i can, they then want me to pay for recorded delivery abroad even though they have a UK gambling license.

    From the way I look at it they could even then once i've done all this they could still not pay me. Is it legal what they're asking me to do here? Surely if the UK government website says I can have a document certified by some kind of professional then that would suffice for a casino website lol.

    The one thing thats really getting me here is that I have been verified by their company and paid out previously so I can't see why they are being like this. From what i have researched they are also a public traded company?. Just wondering if you guys had any ideas as to what I could do or which root to go down any and all help appreciated. Cheers guys.
     
  2. Oct 17, 2016
  3. randomiam

    randomiam Meister Member

    Occupation:
    n/a
    Location:
    australia
    heres how it goes

    There not the best casinos in fact from what ive read there quite bad.

    You have been given the stall tacit so you spend you balance and they dont have to pay.
    if its under a few hundred let it go and play at a accredited casino.
    getting the documents will cost you cash posting them will cost you cash if its a large amount you won $1000 or over it might be worth chasing them for it they never pay there players if it the group im thinking about here
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Oct 17, 2016
  5. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    If they have a UK license, they have to have a valid UK address for "the service of papers" among other things, so if they are asking for documents to be posted abroad, this implies that their UK address might not meet the requirements of their UK license, and is nothing more than a box in some solicitors office for mail forwarding, but where there is not the required "legal person or entity" to be served with papers if necessary.

    Asking a UK player for notarised documents after they have been playing for some while, and also at more than one property after having been invited by the operator, also indicates that they did not do the necessary and legally required level of KYC earlier, where they should have spotted significant issues with using the standard means of player verification that would cause sufficient concerns to require the most extreme KYC step there is, the posting by snail mail of notarised documents.

    UK licenced casinos are expected by the UKGC to use electronic database verification of UK players, and given the nature of such verification, it can be carried out soon after a player has indicated that they are likely to be a recurring depositor. Basic KYC is supposed to take place within 72 hours of the first deposit, and this should have spotted serious discrepancies that would only be resolvable via the use of notarised documents.

    In effect, lax KYC earlier in the chain has created the situation where they don't know who they have been dealing with all this time, yet they have been taking money, paying money, and even beginning to court the player to play at other properties. Given that KYC is there to prevent money laundering, not there as a tool for casinos to use to pick and choose which players to pay, they are also misusing the KYC procedure itself because if you WERE using them to launder money, you have managed to put several washes through their machine already.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Oct 18, 2016
  7. The Prospect

    The Prospect Full Member

    Location:
    UK
    Still in contact

    Thanks for the comments/help up to yet. I'm still in contact with them and still waiting for a reply. The last I heard from them was that they need the Notarized ID to satisfy the Gibraltar gaming license, which I don't understand as I'm a UK player? so surely the authority on this would be the UK gambling commission, from what I've read online anyway. Will keep you all updated.. also if any of you have any advice how I should go about this then please comment and let me know. Thanks
     
  8. Oct 18, 2016
  9. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It's a bit complicated. The UKGC offer "secondary licenses" as well as "primary licenses". This means that come casinos are "primary licensed" in a place like Gibraltar for their international business, but "secondary licensed" in the UK purely for their UK business. This has left a bit of a mess because in theory UK players are governed by the UK license, and the primary license should not be overruling the UK license. However, the UK license may not cover this situation, leaving nothing to overrule in cases like this.

    The fallback then is the DPA. A business must only "demand" for data that is "necessary", as opposed to "desirable". This will all depend on whether this is really a "necessary" requirement, or merely "desirable". If one is unhappy about the level of personal data being demanded by a company, and the processing of such data, it's an issue for the ICO rather than the UKGC. Where data is merely "desirable", the company may still ask, but the customer has the right to say "no" without suffering detrimental consequences for the refusal.

    I believe the UKGC is still trying to thrash out a proper system for KYC because of problems such as this. Once it does so, it can be incorporated into the UK license, and thus will replace procedures originating from the primary license.

    The view of the UKGC is that casinos should be using electronic database verification for it's UK players, not requesting documents, notarised or otherwise, as routine. Only when electronic verification fails should UK facing casinos be reverting to the previous system of players having to scan and send in documents. They should also be using a UK address for the receipt of correspondence, legal papers, etc.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Oct 18, 2016
  11. The Prospect

    The Prospect Full Member

    Location:
    UK
    Hey vinylweatherman, thanks for the response. Really in-depth and a good break down of how its all working. After reading your comments and thinking about it all, I'm still unsure of how to go about all of this. I mean I am certainly unhappy at what they are asking for, it's going to cost me money and time to get what they need.

    As well as this I believe that its not a necessary document to be provided as there are many ways I can prove my identity to them (which i already did via a scan of photo ID and proof of my address which was accepted for withdrawals previously), at a cheaper and more convenient way. As mentioned before there company have been accepting my deposits over the past few months and paying me out without any problems like this, does that in any way help my cause? I am just wondering how to proceed from here, if any of you guys think I have a valid argument not to do the notarised document (because i don't have a lot of money to be able to go and pay for it but also the issue of getting somewhere that actually do a notarisation), what would my option be to proceed to get the withdrawal going?

    Again thanks for all the info/help up to yet, really it's making me a lot calmer than I would be if you guys weren't here to help.
     
  12. Oct 18, 2016
  13. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    One way forward would be a formal complaint that they are "stalling" paying you by demanding you jump through a difficult and non standard set of hoops in order to get paid. The fact that you have been paid before, and deposits have been accepted for the past several months, does work in your favour because it shows that as far as the casino were concerned, there was no issue with your KYC using the regular procedures. What works even more in your favour is that they didn't just accept your bets, they actively encouraged you to sign up and play at their other properties.

    They will have to come back with something better than "it's policy" in response to a formal complaint, because they will be explaining their side to an ADR, not the player. Ultimately, they could be explaining it to a judge should you choose to take them to court to force payment of your money. However, they will most likely boot you from the casino after being forced to pay, probably citing "breakdown of relationship between business and customer".

    It may well be a case of "it's policy" to demand notarised documents for a withdrawal above a certain amount, but is it "necessary" for them to perform the required KYC given that there are accepted methods that have become "industry standard", and provided these can be utilised, there should be no need for notarised documents.

    2.5K is a very low amount to trigger a request for notarised documents for a player that has already passed KYC under the prevention of money laundering rules, which is done by having the player send in scans of an ID and proof of address. Notarised documents from an already verified player from the normal methods tends to only happen when they hit a VERY big win, something like a large progressive payout, because they need to be absolutely certain that they have sent the money to the right person, and that it was a genuine win.

    Certain Playtech casinos have a reputation for demanding notarised documents be posted to the Philippines almost as routine, and when one casino was pulled up about it here the rep apologised and said that European players should be getting told to post their notarised documents to their offices in Gibraltar. However, what this DOES reveal is that some casinos are not who they appear to be on the branding - this was a UK pools brand, and what it revealed was that they actually had little or nothing to do with the casino bearing their brand, they had sold the rights to use the brand to an operator based in Manila, and quite a few of our high street brands have simply sold the rights to the brand to this and other offshore operators. Post UKGC regime, these operators now need a UK license and a UK office, so should not be telling players to send their notarised documents abroad, which depending on the location, may be a DPA offence in itself regardless of what is requested, and the necessity of the request.

    For 2.5K though, you are probably stuck with complying and then jumping ship from all their casinos with the money you have won, whereas if the withdrawal was for less than the cost of complying, you could simply do nothing and let your account go dormant, and them unable to comply with the claimed "necessary requirements" of their primary license.

    ON NO ACCOUNT BE TEMPTED TO PLAY BACK THIS 2.5K SIMPLY BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO GET PAID OUT!
     
  14. Oct 19, 2016
  15. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Closer to 100 than Birth

    Occupation:
    Not in workforce
    Location:
    Ontario
    I'm not sure how prevalent notaries are in UK (here, pretty much every solicitor who will spend a few hundred on the seal itself is one). Here's a link to a website you can search for one near you.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    There is probably one close enough that you should be able to take just a few hours off work hopefully. Here there are some that work weekends, for a premium charge, which might be cheaper than time off work.

    It won't be cheap, but sometimes compliance is easier no matter what your rights are.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Oct 21, 2016
  17. The Prospect

    The Prospect Full Member

    Location:
    UK
    Quick update.

    So after going back and forward still with slotsheaven. I finally thought I had some good news and got an email saying:

    "Hello Joshua,

    My name is (**EDIT**) and I am contacting you from Support Team at SlotsHeaven.com regarding your account.

    We would like to inform you that your your account verification and current withdrawal requested you may send us photo of you holding your ID next to your face."

    So obviously I thought that it was over and they had come to their senses about how ridiculous it was to be asking me for the notarised stuff. As soon as i got home from work I sent over the photo of me holding my passport and a scan of my passport so there was no denying I am who I say I am.

    Then I got another email saying that after reviewing my account they decided I will have to snail mail the notarised document anyway over to Gibraltar! I just think these guys are taking me for an idiot asking for all these personal documents. Maybe they're sat in there little office in Gibraltar having a good laugh at the bloke from England sending over pictures of himself holding his passport next to his head! lol

    Anyway will keep you all informed on how it is going as i get the updates. Again thanks for all the help up to yet.
     
  18. Oct 21, 2016
  19. theslotsking

    theslotsking Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    it
    Location:
    Australia
    Hi,

    Just thought I'd mention something quickly. I use to gamble at mansion frequently. Had big drama's with the verification issues and notarised ID.

    If you are going to send documentation send it to a physical address if possible where someone there has to physically sign for it. If you send it with a courier company they include tracking.

    The last thing you want is more delays and costs.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Oct 21, 2016
  21. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yours is a case the CMA will be interested in for it's investigation into the fairness with which online casinos in general treat players. There is no reason for this request given that verification can, and should according to the UKGC, be done electronically via government and credit reference databases.

    The fact that you are repeatedly being jerked around by them adding a new requirement every time you comply with the previous, and that this is only an issue now that they have your money held to ransom, but didn't bother them in the slightest when you were depositing and losing, looks very much like an "unfair business practice" on their part, and an inconsistent approach to their legal responsibility to prevent their services from being used for money laundering.

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums...gate-fairness-online-gambling.html#post790239
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Oct 21, 2016
  23. theslotsking

    theslotsking Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    it
    Location:
    Australia
    Having a requirement to post in identification is purely a delay tactic. I have heard of it with large bookmakers however its normally regarding large deposits/withdrawl and is in line with the anti laundering legislation.

    What these companies want is for you to get sick of waiting, cancel your withdrawl and lose your money.
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Oct 24, 2016
  25. MansionRep

    MansionRep Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Internal Support DL
    Location:
    Gibraltar
    Dear customer,

    We apologise if you were frustrated by the withdrawal process here, but we do conduct thorough account reviews in accordance with strict regulatory standards and occasionally these do lead to additional requests being made by the security team.

    On this occasion, this included the request for NID. I am happy to report that we have intervened and waived this requirement – we can further confirm that the payment has been processed and the funds should be hitting your account soon.

    Best wishes,

    Slotsheaven.com
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Oct 24, 2016
  27. The Prospect

    The Prospect Full Member

    Location:
    UK
    Happy Days!

    Well its official, I have had an email from slotsheaven confirming that the money has been processed. Thank you to all who have given me advice and helped me with this. I can't express to you guys how much this money will help me and i am certainly in debt to some of you. I can happily say my experience on this website is fantastic and I try to be active on here as much as possible, but you guys who have helped is the reason why I will try even harder now to become even more active and involved. Thanks to all! (including slotsheaven.com and the mansion group)
     
  28. Oct 24, 2016
  29. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Surely a UK player should be asked to send this kind of thing to a UK address, not an offshore one.

    If this requirement can be waived, then it wasn't strictly necessary for compliance with anti-money laundering in the first place, as if it were, you would not be able to waive it.

    As far as the recently announced CMA investigation, is it "treating the customer fairly" to have them expect payment of winnings, only to be asked to do something like this, something that outside of the online casino industry is unheard of in respect of an everyday consumer contract.

    Even when transferring several hundred thousand pounds for something like a house sale or purchase, it's normally sufficient to show your driving license or passport plus a utility bill to the conveyancing solicitor, you are not asked to get them notarised and send them off to head office yourself.

    This, however, is not a house purchase, it's merely "entertainment", something casinos are very keen to emphasise when it suits them.

    There is a feeling that these anti-money laundering provisions are being misused in some instances as a tactic, perhaps where the casino feels a player is "too smart", and playing with a view to win, rather than for "entertainment". In many cases, players faced with this hurdle give up and play back their win because they feel withdrawing it is being made impossible. This of course makes the problem go away, and is beneficial for the casino.

    Fortunately, in this case it seems the player held their resolve and didn't play back this 2.5K.

    Unfortunately, the player is now in the position of knowing that there is something up with some data somewhere that puts him at significant risk of not being paid, but he isn't allowed to know what this is, nor whether or not someone somewhere is processing inaccurate personal data that needs to be corrected in order that this does not happen again.
     
  30. Mar 30, 2017
  31. geordiecolin

    geordiecolin Senior Member CAG PABnononaccred mm4

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    West Sussex
    Casino.com

    On the 21st March I took Casino.com's ( Mansion group) SUB and completed the wagering requirements with a healthy profit. Upon making the withdrawal I found that the £40 bonus was to be excluded from my withdrawal amount. I could not find that in the T&C's.

    After sending in all of my Docs I received a message stating that my drivers license was not reproduced to their satisfaction and I had to make a clearer version for their inspection. In all my time of producing docs I have never had my driving license docs turned down.

    I knew where this was going so I shamefully used my membership of Casinomeister in my response to threaten them with me posting my thoughts on their request if they did not take reconsider the quality of my photographic abilities.
    Within an hour they changed their minds.
    I do not abuse my membership of casinomeister and I would never advocate anyone else doing so. But given the reputation on the Mansion group I feared for my withdrawal happening so did what I could to nip their antics in the bud.

    It has been flushed but 10 days on and I still have not received payment.
    I was going to let it slide,including the retention of the £40 bonus that I feel I was entitled to claim as long as I was paid in a reasonable time.
    It also highlights how they are willing to prey on those who they presume know no better.
    Awful group.
     
  32. Apr 4, 2017
  33. geordiecolin

    geordiecolin Senior Member CAG PABnononaccred mm4

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    West Sussex
    I've just received the most beautiful invite to redeposit at a casino that I have ever had. I immediately felt like jumping on its bones.

    "Why play anywhere else?

    There’s so much choice out there nowadays – we get it. But we want to fight for you, because you’re totally worth it. And if this won’t convince you we’re meant to be, we’re not sure what will.

    We get a kick out of entertaining and delighting you, so we’re giving you another chance to bag an extra 200% up to $/£/€200 – you don’t want to miss out! Claim before 23:59 (GMT) tomorrow using code CLAIM200.

    What do you say, colin, will you give us a chance?

    Because after all, we’re just a casino, standing in front of a player, asking them to love us."

    Casino.com
    :(
     
  34. May 4, 2018
  35. shanestocks

    shanestocks Newbie member

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Hello guys hoping you can help me with this too.

    I have requested a withdrawal from 10bet for £6000+. They have now asked me for notarized documents, clearly as a stall tactic because that will take time and money. This is clearly unfair and I don't have any plans to actually do this.

    There has been examples of people fighting this and winning. May I ask what my best course of action is?
     

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