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Slots in general

Discussion in 'Slots Discussion' started by Sasukdcf, May 5, 2018.

    May 5, 2018
  1. Sasukdcf

    Sasukdcf Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Aerial installer
    Location:
    Norwich
    hi guys Newby alert

    I haven't had chance to read many of the threads here but have a vast ( too vast to be honest ) experience of online slots.

    I'm sure I am not the only one that feels there is a direct negative correlation between your stake and primarily a feature value.

    I conducted some tests on 6 appeal with 2 players playing at the same time over 1000s of spins ( it was an expensive test)

    And the collated figures showed this dramatically being the case with the 20p and 40p player getting significately more features and a massive difference between the average feature value from the player playing £2 and £4 stakes.


    The exact same occurred on fortunes of Sparta which incidentally has been changed recently and the mechanics of the game have changed and yet no new testing has been carried out!

    I could go on and on here but Interested to see people's views on this as I have been speaking to the GC about this and other points at length as I feel the industry is not rigged as such but that it doesn't play quite how it gives the impression it plays.

    Every casino host will tell you that outcomes and games are random and stale is immaterial... it blatantly isn't!

    I have spoken to testing houses too who are guarded in what they say but still enlightening.

    Interested in your thoughts and I'll be back on later
     
    snorky510238 and DavidShush like this.
  2. May 5, 2018
  3. slotter999

    slotter999 Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Player
    Location:
    UK
    I'd be interested in looking at your data if you'd care to share. My initial thoughts are that your sample size doesn't seem particularly big so it's unlikely to be conclusive.

    But this topic does come up quite a lot. We are told stake size doesn't matter and to be honest I believe this to be true (I haven't always).
     
  4. May 5, 2018
  5. goatwack

    goatwack Calendar Time for Buddy CAG

    Occupation:
    Stuntman
    Location:
    Londonia
    Yes, it's been brought up briefly in the past
     
    Jono777 likes this.
  6. May 5, 2018
  7. Jono777

    Jono777 Meister Member CAG mm4 mm1

    Occupation:
    Self- Employeed
    Location:
    Wolverhampton
    Not a good time for me to read this given my run from hell of late, I'll go and find something else to do sharpish :oops:
     
    Supababe, Borgie and goatwack like this.
  8. May 5, 2018
  9. goatwack

    goatwack Calendar Time for Buddy CAG

    Occupation:
    Stuntman
    Location:
    Londonia
    It is quite apparent though. Apart from the obvious 'halving' of playtime and balance, whenever I up bets (double, like 40 - 80p :oops:) I see tragic returns.

    Had a good bankroll couple of days ago, through hard graft. Flirted with the idea of upping bets but declined, as I knew immediately how the slots would play.

    Stuck to happy low rolling and saw many hours of game play, with a few nice surprises thrown in :cool:
     
  10. May 5, 2018
  11. pinnit2014

    pinnit2014 Senior Member MM PABinit

    Occupation:
    Work with figures, other audit-y things
    Location:
    Glasgow
    I personally find that Immortal Romance quite ‘likes’ the higher bets. One of the few games I’d high roll for a while in. As for the others? Well I think they play crap at higher stakes but when I switch down I normally find they’re equally as shite.
     
  12. May 5, 2018
  13. goatwack

    goatwack Calendar Time for Buddy CAG

    Occupation:
    Stuntman
    Location:
    Londonia
    Ahh, Immortal Nochance. Used to be part of my staple slot diet in my fledgling career :cool:

    Easy to forget how many different slots I've played since. I wouldn't even entertain the idea of playing certain games as they smash my bankroll.

    Expectations have to be realistic based on the games, and their general variance I guess.....
     
    pinnit2014 likes this.
  14. May 5, 2018
  15. Sasukdcf

    Sasukdcf Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Aerial installer
    Location:
    Norwich
    Slotter999 that's fine happy to share if you send me your email addy on pm

    My email crashed so I will have to get some of them resent but happy to do that...

    I'm not moaning due to a bad run I have been playing too long for that.

    But I am flagging what I think is a fairly recent change in how games are playing....


    So I decided to start to record some data and having been in discussions for 3 years now with GC regarding progressive jackpots which is a whole
    Different topic!!

    I do seem to get somewhere with them although they are still crazy slow at actually doing anything and they are still generations behind where they need to be.... the whole RTP method of calculating fairness is totally flawed in its concept in my opinion as it is impossible to get any data of how it is measured.

    According to my research there is no definitive rule that says RTP needs to be the same over all stakes so if there was a negative swing as you increased stakes they wouldn't actually be breaking any laws, however the argument is that we are all advised differently by casino hosts.

    Has anyone had any big wins on 6 appeal?

    Irrespective of stake, I'm talking of big wins pro rata to stake....

    My friend hit 90 spins at a x1 multiplyer the other day and won £280 on a 40p stake.

    ( he hit a repeat of spins and multiplier)

    That was a nice win.....

    A while back I hit 5 dice feature and then another 5 dice straight away giving me 257 spins at a 27x multiplier at £20 stake!!!!!

    To say I was excited was an understatement as in essence I was playing over 200 spins at £540 a spin...

    Not sure on your guys take on this but having seen many many big features on 6 appeal and never hit that many spins or that size multiplier I was expecting it to max out which is 45,000 x line bet ( 45k )

    I got a return of £8.2k which I have to say although very nice was at the same time dissapointing

    I feel sure if that same feature hit at 20p it would be more than £82!!

    Thoughts
     
    DavidShush likes this.
  16. May 5, 2018
  17. slotter999

    slotter999 Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Player
    Location:
    UK
    @Sasukdcf

    I vaguely remember playing 6 appeal some time ago but I'm not a fan of realistic gaming so it won't have got much play time.

    The £20 freespins outcome does indeed sound like a kick to the nuts. I've hit the stuff of dreams at massive stakes before only to be crushed by a sub 10x win. It happens :-(

    Re: RTP. It is constant across all stakes unless stated otherwise. So big bets on SG games offer higher RTP. On the FOBTs they sometimes provide different RTPs depending on betsize but I've never seen this online. One idea I've considered before is perhaps the volatility of a slot changes at different stakes while maintaining a consistent RTP. This is technically possible and also within the rules of the standards but even so...the amount of effort to do that and get it through testing makes it seem unlikely a provider would go to those lengths.

    In terms of you sharing your data. I don't need the actual data perhaps just a summary. How many spins. Bonus hit rate. Bonus amount across the bet sizes.
     
    DavidShush likes this.
  18. May 5, 2018
  19. Sasukdcf

    Sasukdcf Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Aerial installer
    Location:
    Norwich
    It does happen and neither my data or 10 years plus experience is conclusive but as I have argued with players casinos testing houses and the GC at length, nothing is ever conclusive in these situations but there is no smoke without fire and the fact is that's it's strange how 99 out of 100 of these demonstrations seem to cement my theories rather than contest them!

    I like high variance games, at medium to high stakes and for most of my playing time I had issues from time to time but never really had an issue as I had regular big swings both ways.
    I literally cannot remember the last time I had a run or in fact a decent stake vs return win.. once I hit a certain level which seems to vary from slot to slot and again it's not every slot or every provider but there are definitely a few that do this time and time and time again...

    Just another random story for any of you that have played fortunes of Sparta which as I posted earlier had definitely changed...

    Has anyone had the 100 spins at a decent stake? My friend has had it 3 times at 25p or 50p I have played it way more than him and never had more than 15 at any stake.

    On a good feature you are only looking at around the 100x mark on average and getting a run of features is hard although often you can get a feature and a couple of middle reel slow spins in quick succession.

    I have lost count of the times I have started a session on say 75p and had a run of features as I up my stakes up to the £5 mark.

    It doesn't seem to matter how big a bank roll I have that spanks me every time and last week was the final straw when I did hit 2 features in fairly quick succession

    Anyone that's played it must have had the feature and managed to hit nowt... the spartan stands there and it says unlucky better luck next time but this is rare and bloody annoying.

    Well I managed to hit that twice in succession on £5 followed by losing my entire bankroll afterwards with nowt and in reality probably a sub 40 RTP


    But this has happened again and again and again and it gets to the point you can't just put it down to bad luck and timing.

    I do sometimes start that game on low stakes and have had countless £30 and £40 features on 25p

    I've probably played it far more on 2.50 5 and 10 and have very few over 100 x features... and when I have explained this to VIP hosts they say well keep at lower stakes then... totally missing the bloody point and making my blood boil!
     
    DavidShush likes this.
  20. May 5, 2018
  21. Reelsoffun

    Reelsoffun Full Member

    Location:
    UK
    @Sasukdcf

    I have always thought that higher stakes pay less % as they always seem to do worse on higher stakes, and i still believe the profiles are different for each and maybe not the RTP.

    However it could just be basic math at play here thats making it play worse because in actual fact they are playing worse for the basic reason of RTP is relative.

    eg. lets say im low rolling a slot at 20p play at 95% Long term im going to lose 1p a spin to the RTP

    up that to £4 a spin on the same slot and now im actually expecting to lose on average 20p every spin played.

    And if like some your tilt betting say £10 a spin your expecting to lose 50p every single spin you take thats a massive £5 loss every 10 goes !!! Soon gonna destroy any balance unless you get lucky early.

    So although it might seem they adjust the % for the stake, I would expect its more a case of same % but different profile, eg the higher the stake the lower variance within the same game.

    Im sure people will say something on the lines thats not a legal way to do it whether it is or its not, lets face it how is that going to show up on any testing the slot is subject to as its still going to achieve its long term RTP? And as a slot programmer in the past its what i would do if it was within the rules.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  22. May 5, 2018
  23. goatwack

    goatwack Calendar Time for Buddy CAG

    Occupation:
    Stuntman
    Location:
    Londonia
    I love how we're told betting higher just impacts RTP in the short- term, easy to make that claim as most don't have 50K to test this theory. Nor will anyone live to be 166 years old :D

    Yet strangely enough, the stats for high- stakes play go crumbling over the same number of spins, when sat side-by-side with relative lower stakes. How come this happens near enough every time....................................................................
     
    DavidShush likes this.
  24. May 5, 2018
  25. Reelsoffun

    Reelsoffun Full Member

    Location:
    UK

    Because say

    1000 spins at 20p on 95% game i would expect to have £40 of my £50 start balance still on average

    1000 spins playing at £1.50 at 95% I should expect most the time to have gone to bust town unless i got "lucky"


    If i have misunderstood your comment @goatwack I apologize.
     
    goatwack likes this.
  26. May 5, 2018
  27. goatwack

    goatwack Calendar Time for Buddy CAG

    Occupation:
    Stuntman
    Location:
    Londonia
    I know one would have lower end amounts when betting bigger, that's natural. What I've heard players mention is how the RTP takes a nose dive when playing higher.....

    So betting eg 20p with £100 balance would yield a better RTP than say £2 bets with a £1000 balance, over the same number of spins :cool:
     
  28. May 5, 2018
  29. Reelsoffun

    Reelsoffun Full Member

    Location:
    UK

    * removed comment as mis read your 100 vs 1000

    However a better way to prove it possibly would be play £10,000 on £2 and £10,000 on 20p then compare but that would still fall into the "too small sample of spins" category LOL ;)
     
    DavidShush and goatwack like this.
  30. May 5, 2018
  31. slotter999

    slotter999 Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Player
    Location:
    UK
    @Sasukdcf

    Yeah I understand your frustration. If I were king for a day I would make it so that RTP stats are published for public consumption. There are games I've played where I cannot for the life of me understand how the machine can possibly make RTP.

    As for sparta - I stopped playing blueprint games as they are just balance destroyers. Its actually quite a few of their games which really makes me question how they can make RTP.
     
  32. May 6, 2018
  33. Sasukdcf

    Sasukdcf Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Aerial installer
    Location:
    Norwich
    Interesting comments here...

    So if I have read them right and all playing fields were even then if me and a friend are sitting together playing 6 appeal and he deposits £20 for 20p and I deposit 200 for £2

    We should in the long term theoretically have the same amount of playtime.

    That being the case then, I have managed to be amazingly unlucky and nothing more than that " honest" as I think out of our last 20
    Or so attempts at that... he is still playing long after me and on 3 occasions has hit bigger wins than me on feature ( and that's not pro rata that's actual £ returns)

    We both hit a similar feature one day 30'spins x 6

    I wanted to punch him when he got £80 return and I got 40!!!

    I honestly think if some people were to get together and push hard enough the whole industry could get blown wide open and there would be a PPI type situation where people could claim back their losses..: I really do
     
    DavidShush likes this.
  34. May 6, 2018
  35. Steviedoo

    Steviedoo Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Writer
    Location:
    South

    Maybe @trancemonkey can chime into this thread...
     
  36. May 6, 2018
  37. trancemonkey

    trancemonkey Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Games Producer
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    There's so much supposition and falsehood in this thread... I need more time to answer most of the points directly... leave it with me :)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
    Sasukdcf likes this.
  38. May 6, 2018
  39. goatwack

    goatwack Calendar Time for Buddy CAG

    Occupation:
    Stuntman
    Location:
    Londonia
    phhhffffrrrtttt :oops:

    It wasn't me. It was the other one. He went that way >>>>
     

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