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Since online casinos are computers and computers can be programmed...

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by BMWSTACK, Dec 20, 2011.

    Dec 20, 2011

    BMWSTACK Ueber Meister

    Ok I am not trying to start the old "rigged" thread, it's more of what is possible with technology?

    I have been thinking about how technology could take advantage of people, specifically online casinos and their sophisticated computer programs. We see a lot of online casinos doing things they shouldnt. ie... operate in areas they shoudnt, sometimes apply silly cashout restrictions, sometimes void winnings etc... What would prevent a casino from making a small programming change to increase profit? Technology is amazing, Computer programs are amazing, and the things you can program are endless. There are very smart programmers that can take down a sophisticated Sony Playstation Network leaving them confused for weeks, there are hacks that can get through sophisticated Military defense computers. So I am sure it isnt that difficult to make minor adjustments at an online without being caught. So it kind of makes me wonder.

    Greed and money are very motivational things that can make people cross a grey line. This thread is not directed to any casino, game or person, but I have seen things that make you wonder. Minor changes from time to time can increase profit significantly. Let me give a non casino example of computer programming to increase profits. I own 50 soda vending machines in busy new york city. I program the machine to not give back a quarter (.25 cents) of change every 10th transaction. I have 200 average transactions per day. That is $5 per day I took by not giving correct change. Take that by 365 days and thats $1,825 for the year, take that by the 50 machines I own in busy new york city and it equals $91,250.00 for the year. Thats a lot of money for shaving a quarter here and there. Soda's in the machine are $2.50 for the can. When I short a few people of .25 cents are they going to make a big deal?, I think not. The point? It doesnt take much to make a significant amount of money without people noticing. (I do not own vending machines)

    It is a well known fact that back in the days of non computerized slots, Vegas would increase payout of slots that were placed at the front of the casino so the people walking by could see the luck. I have just recently seen a mind boggling move by a B&M Casino. They had a bank of about 20 slot machine with a car in the middle. The car is won randomally. It is not triggered by hitting a jackpot on a slot, but a simple random win on any bet (we all know randomjackpots). Well the car sat there for 2 years and finally because the car was becoming a 2 year old new car, they decided to force it to hit and guaranteed it to hit in 2 weeks. So obviously they had to go program it to hit in the next 2 weeks. The problem is that for 2 years people went and played that bank of slots for the dream to win the car that would go off randomally, and then they have to go force it to go off . ( by the way it didnt go off until the very last day of the guaranteed hit) I can tell you that this type of move is not looked at favorably by the gaming commission in the area. The gaming commission is there to regulate every single move by the casinos, every promotion and event needs to be approved by the gaming commission. I am going to inquire as to what they thought of this move. My Point? This is an example of ovious programming. I dont know if the original program to go random failed, but it worked out in the long run for the casino. They attracted people to play this machine for the chance to win the car and probably made a significant profit for 2 years, and then when they announced it to hit they probably received a half a year amount of play on the machine's in 2 weeks. Let me put it this way, they blatantly announced they were rigging the machine.

    So would an online casino program a random to hit every now and then on a free chip that has a max cashout?
    Would an online casino make adjustment's to specific individual's RTP?
    Would they lower payout for a large depositor, or lower payout for someone winning?
    Would they use shills to play at certain times, maybe when they know something is going to hit?
    Would they program more smaller bets to hit rather than payout a large bet?

    I am not specifically looking for answers to these questions. These are just things that have run through my mind. I did say I wanted this thread to be a discussion. The paragraphs above are listed to show that 1) I do believe anything in your wildest dreams can be programmed 2) I do also believe that there has to be casinos that manipulate certain programs to increase profit. As you can see I am using the words "I Believe" . I am not a computer programmer so I am not sure what is actually possible, nor do I have proof of anything malicious taking place.

    Do you believe that "anything" can be programmed? , and would some online casinos exploit that ability?
    4 people like this.
  2. Dec 20, 2011
  3. takethemoney

    takethemoney Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic

    You can sheer a Sheep for a lifetime, but you will only skin it once.

    Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered
  4. Dec 20, 2011
  5. Nate

    Nate Ueber Meister CAG webmeister

    You will never ever get an admission to any of the above (even if they were true). It would simply be too damaging for any Online Casino.

    Anything can and WILL be programmed. You can't tell whether the RTP has been increased or decreased on a Slot. It's only hearsay from the Casino and whispers that the software provider doesn't allow RTP to be changed. Mind you, BOTH are not regulated. You can't prove otherwise even if your gut tells you its true :).

    Although I trust certain gaming providers like MG (My trust probably STOPS here), there are question marks in my head about others. I'm not saying that I'm putting on a tin foil hat, but based on results - 'I Believe' that certain instances of code / programming may be in use by certain software providers and may not even be detectable (Like your $0.25c example). It may not necessarily be true, but my experiences have lead me to be biased towards that thought process. I have not had the pleasure of playing many platforms, but from the ones i did play - I have my own theory (maybe not accurate or true, but enough to keep me away from them)

    Remember that the stats you see online and receive from the Casino are provided by them. There is NO WAY to prove they are accurate or are not bumped up to make it look good. I simply do not play at some places anymore or as much as I used to because I do believe that something is just not right.

    2 people like this.
  6. Dec 20, 2011
  7. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Trans. Tech
    New York
    No one knows or could find out anything for confirmed fact about the inner workings of how any online casino presently operates in its un-enforced regulated state.

    Trying to have an unbiased conversation about such a topic at a site like this is surprising coming from a member of over three years.

    You would get a better response if the topic was based around the price of fish.
  8. Dec 20, 2011
  9. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    The PAB Guy
    We seem to have a discussion pretty similar to this every year or so. No worries, just saying.

    Back in a former life I was a Software Engineer and a Systems Designer. Speaking from that experience I can tell you -- like Nate has already said -- pretty much anything you can imagine could be done in software is possible to do. Certainly the things you've suggested are possible. Whether they are probable or not is another question.

    The important thing to realize about putting such things in a piece of software is that (a) a software system is (generally speaking) an interconnected system, in other words it's VERY rare for something to run on a system without being tied into other things in the system. So when the "special" thing functions it almost always has an effect on other things in the system: either it leaves a data trace, or it steals processor power, or ... whatever. The point being that one way or another it will leave some trace of itself and in doing so it is vulnerable to being exposed.

    The other thing, (b), is the old argument that most casinos can make money hand-over-fist by doing exactly what they say they are doing without getting involved in shady stuff like the items you were asking about. So why bother?

    AND (c) there's a huge downside to doing the shady things, namely getting caught and trashed because of it.

    And finally (d), doing tricky shit in software requires really good programmers (especially if they want the tricky shit to stay a secret) and those folks cost $$$$. So whatever gain you hope to get from the "jigged" software has to be large enough to offset the development costs of doing so and offset the downside costs of getting caught.

    If you add these up, a + b + c + d, what you end up with is a fairly slim justification for them doing the crooked stuff with your casino software.

    Does this mean it never happens? No, probably not.
    Does this mean it happens often? No, probably not.
    Does this mean it's likely to happen to you? No, probably not.
    Does this mean that it'll never happen to you? No, probably not.

    In other words yes, it's all possible but none of it is very likely. If you can live with that, game on! If not, best start looking for a new hobby 'cause it'll keep you up at night sweating over such things.
    12 people like this.
  10. Dec 20, 2011
  11. slotjunkie

    slotjunkie Dormant account

    Interior Designer
    Washington State
    My husband started as a programmer 33 years ago and has made it VERY clear that you can program a computer to do anything you want it to do, at any time, in any way, for any one.

    And I am not calling anyone a fool, but one would be extremely foolish if they think bonus/no deposit codes, ip addresses, etc... can not be and are not being programmed to do what they want it to do when playing online.

    My 2...mixed with facts.
  12. Dec 20, 2011
  13. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Regardless of who is right or who is wrong, anyone who even REMOTELY believes that any such activities MIGHT take place in online casinos, and proceeds to spend even a penny at one, is saying something about themselves.

    Discussions like this almost always crop up as a direct result of someone having bad luck or losing their shirt. I don't remember seeing one start because someone believed they were winning more than they should.

    The only member I'm aware of that has the courage of their convictions is 4ofakind, as he has refused to play online as a result of his beliefs that online casinos cheat. Personally, I pay no heed to anyone who suggests any kind of rigging or cheating and who continues to play. It's nothing personal against any particular member its just a matter of me refusing to take seriously what these people obviously don't take seriously themselves....stop playing as a result of your suspicions and I'm all ears.

    I could go into why operators don't need to and how it actually works against them and how difficult and financially non-viable it would be to setup and maintain etc etc, but I've said it all upteen times and I don't want it to get ugly and personal like it inevitably does. Experience tells me that people will believe what they want to believe when it comes to the whole rigging question, and no amount of argument or evidence will affect their point of view.

    I'll sit back and read with interest
    6 people like this.
  14. Dec 20, 2011
  15. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    al Hazard
    Location, Location!
    ... and that's all anyone needs to know.

    It's called gambling for a reason. You throw some money at something in the knowledge that the massive likelihood is you'll lose it.

    Of course some outfits online and off will fix stuff and not play by the rules - that's life with any business you're in. Of course computers and software can be made to do stuff and some will be.

    Stick with the big, well established and regulated names and at least you'll know you're losing all your money as fairly as possible :D
    1 person likes this.
  16. Dec 20, 2011
  17. nisosbar

    nisosbar Ueber Meister PABnonaccred

    Right here
    I like to think of myself as a smart person, so these discussions are always interesting to me, at least until they drift into more complicated discussion of mathematical theory and such.

    BUT, I play to have fun. Hard to quantify, yes, but if I'm having fun, I just know it. I don't need to win huge in order to have fun, and I don't need to cash out every time. If I NEVER cash out, or if it's extremely rare, then I move on and someone else gets my deposits.

    I do think some casinos claim to have a higher RTP than the setting is fixed at. But as someone else alluded to, fool me twice, shame on me. That is, if someone claims to have a 98% RTP, and it runs more like scratchie tickets do with their official RTP of something like 55%, then I'm so done, no matter what anyone else says.
    1 person likes this.
  18. Dec 20, 2011
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom
    It takes only ONE operator to try the shady stuff, and get caught, to place doubt in the minds of players. There are a number of occasions where dodgy software has been busted, yet despite the obvious damage getting caught does, there are some that STILL believe it's worth a try. This year, BLR was the latest software to get caught cheating at craps, even though there was no need to cheat given that the game has a house edge. This places the practice firmly in the present, rather than something that "used to happen in the past".

    This means that players who think they have been cheated will think they HAVE been cheated, but done so well that they can't prove it.

    We also have genuine mistakes that lead to cheating software going live with no malice on the part of the operator. The problem there is that the standard first responce to any allegations is to deny everything, and only admit there might be a problem when a body of evidence so overwhelming is amassed that they can no longer claim the results are as they should be. This comes across as malice from the start, and seeking to trash those who point out the cheating in order to extend the length of time they can profit from it before they are forced to admit it.
  20. Dec 20, 2011
  21. X-Raided

    X-Raided I'm Beetlejuice Baby! PABinit


    Beautifully said.

    It's totally human nature to think this way.

    The same people who believe that someone at an online casino is watching their
    game play and setting their RTP to a lower setting are the same people looking
    out their blinds at night when they hear a car pass by. IMO
  22. Dec 20, 2011
  23. labeled

    labeled The eagle got Kevin!

    Land of the "free"
    I disagree and believe it's a bit over the top and naive to blindly trust any casino. The rogue list is there for a reason, and that reason is that behind every casino operation are people. And while some of us believe that people are basically good... there are exceptions.
  24. Dec 20, 2011
  25. X-Raided

    X-Raided I'm Beetlejuice Baby! PABinit


    Who said anything about having COMPLETE trust in ALL online casinos? One should have a bit of trust in who your dumping
    hard earned cash in to, (CM accredited list). The diligence has already been made for the player if your following the CM

    Now, my statement pertains to a person who loses their deposit and believes in the tinfoil hat theory rather than swallowing
    their losses. You could have donated your "$50" deposit to a kid's cancer research fundraiser but you decided to deposit at an
    online casino for your entertainment purposes. You shouldn't run and cry rigged when you lose that "$50" IMO... Especially at an accredited
    site. Get it?
  26. Dec 20, 2011
  27. klara1968

    klara1968 Dormant account


    Is'nt it logical to believe that a non profit casino will close his gates very fast, if online players like us will win and win and win...
    Casinos that pay more than their profit, will shut down and all the online gambling casinos will vanish.If we want to keep on playing online than we must admit- it will happen only if most of us will keep on losing...

    SAD BUT TRUE :cool:
    2 people like this.
  28. Dec 20, 2011
  29. LHofsdal

    LHofsdal Ueber Meister MM

    I think it all comes down to each individual player and what they believe. One player could be having the worst luck, no cashouts in months, no playtime, no features etc. etc. Then you have another player who is consistantly cashing out, getting big wins lots of playtime and lots of features.

    So the player that is winning comes here and posts the screen shots, tells how much they deposited and how much they cashed out. Another player has a problem, could be anything, like cashout denied for some reason. They come here and post their side of the story, and BAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! Now the player who is having the bad luck knows this place is rigged. A whole new thread is started and many people speculate things that are not true and they truely believe it is the truth. Nothing is going to change their minds, not even the mods coming an posting the real legitamate reason their withdrawal was denied. Could be because they have mutliple accounts, they have used someone elses credit card etc. etc.

    It is all how each player perceives the casino they are playing at. Many CM members here are in love with 3dice, others are not so keen on them. Many players here are in love with MG casinos, certain labels and other here are not. No matter what is said if someone truely believes something, no one or not any facts are likely to change their minds. The OP stated that these were things he/she was thinking about, they never said that they believed it and they did give a pretty damn good example of how things can be manipulated.

    Another member was also 100% correct when they said it only take 1 rogue operator to make many people distrust them and that platform. I really think that some of these establishments do more harm by not responding to PMs, not repsonding to player issues that are posted here or at any other forum, and doing other shady things like the Betfair fiasco then trying to manipulate their software. I truely don't think that most members put 100% of their trust into any 1 casino, but do trust them enough to continue playing.

    The members here that in the USA have been hit with many things this years, and with all the changes that were made for the US players it is understandable that some don't trust a single casino. The BS that is given as excuses sometimes make my mouth fall wide open, but it really come downs to how each player is treated and the options that are available to them. Like Max said it is possible but not probable, and I think he is right on that one.

    Just my 2 cents.

  30. Dec 20, 2011
  31. gloria460

    gloria460 Meister Member

    There's also been proof provided of rigged software in some casinos and yet these places are still up and running. It doesn't mean a player had bad luck just because they start a thread asking questions about casino behavior regarding software.

    There's a rogue pit for a reason and some of the rogued casinos are in there for cheating software.
    2 people like this.
  32. Dec 20, 2011

    BMWSTACK Ueber Meister

    Thanks for all the response and there are some good ones. The quote above from Nifty has been said a few times by different memebres. When writing the thread I knew that it was going to come up often, but it was already becoming very wordy so I did not address it then.

    There are plenty of things in life that we know are bad or may be bad, but we continue to do them, its human nature. We know smoking is bad, but companies continue to produce them and people continue to smoke them. Artificial sweeteners may cause cancer, but we continue to use them. Continuing to use and do things that are bad I guess "could say something about themselves." I believe it says that as human beings we are flawed, and because we are given the power of choice most people will not go thru life making all the right decisions.

    I myself enjoy discussing and thinking of conspiracies and things that happen or could happen in the world. This thread is certainly one of those discussions. Now I will not drive myself paranoid, but I will get focused on certain things and am entertained discussing such things.

    I have enjoyed the responses and in my mind I am seeing basically people go two ways: 1) It is technically possible and maybe bad casinos would do some things but good casino's wouldnt risk such things 2) "I dont want to think about these things". I myself only play Accredited Casinos, so I do put the faith in the fact that they would not dare mess with their reputation by doing such things, but with my original post I utilized shaving .25 cents a few times from a vending machince as an illustration of how profits could be increased by creating such a small error.

    Let me ask this, do all accredited casinos put a random back in the machine if someone hits it on a free chip or bonus with a max cashout? I think I have seen where actually very few casino's actually apply the random back to the machine, so I will continue on with the point. Is not applying a Random back a blatant act of increasing profits and doing the players wrong? I myself believe so. Those randoms could go months, and they are shared on multiple games. You could have people playing for periods of time trying to hit the random and then poof someone hits on a max cashout free chip, and noone gets paid. If a casino makes a move in public such as that what else could be taking place? (and yes I continue to play , and I do smoke and know its bad for me)
  34. Dec 20, 2011
  35. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Sorry.....quick question....are you referring to the BLR Tech software with cheating craps? Or another one?
  36. Dec 21, 2011
  37. gloria460

    gloria460 Meister Member

    Remember the one with jhv..I believe those were his initials and the blackjack felt. What about the double pears that vinyl and other people exposed that gave the casino an unfair advantage. Also with the poker scandals that caused millions of dollars to be lost by players and of course the craps issue. Casinos stating that depositors are using systems to take unfair advantage of the game. If it's random, how can that be possible? In fact, they are stating their software is not random and can be manipulated.

    If multiple casinos can be thrown in the rogue pit regarding their behavior in paying players don't you think that these same operators would have no qualms in having the software adjusted to their benefit?

    No one really knows the answer to these questions but I rather just go to a B&M and not wonder if I'm not getting a fair game or if I'm going to be paid.
    2 people like this.
  38. Dec 21, 2011
  39. newjam

    newjam Dormant account

    As the financial crises grips harder it would be a great feature from the casino's point of to to able to tweak RTP to offset losses due to lower liquidity. I would love to know what goes on between operators and software providers.

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