Should I PaB? (blacklisted by Rushmore)

bigsmile

Banned User - troll
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Location
usa
I had another thread dealing with this but not sure if I should PaB about it. My problem is that a casino wrongly accused me of chargeback. I have never done this and CDS looked into it and ruled in my favor and I was subsequently paid for my winnings. However, I was put on some kind of list by the casino that was trying to not pay me. Thus, I cannot deposit at ANY RTG casino at all now. I want off of this list of course and deservedly so. This is so very wrong. Since I am totally innocent of anything even close to a chargeback, I am looking for a way to get OFF of whatever this list is. Then I can resume making deposits and playing at places like clubworld.
Im not sure if I should PaB or if you even have contacts that can fix this or if you even know what to do but I would take your advice and guidance right now and be very happy with it. Thank you.
 
Casino was surprised that you just jumped on the bandwagon straight to CDS instead of having problem resolved first with a Rep here and the PAB. They are clearly disappointed with you. They don't want you back with them again. So as a result of per request by CDS they paid you fully and put you on global ban with Club World RTG group permanently. You can't do anything. Thats their decision. They have evidence against you and you have your own evidence with CDS against them. Its a stalemate. CDS understood that Club World had made decision and CDS accepted that. There no can do. But let just wait see what Max got to say. If he says no to PAB then oh well, time to move on really.
 
I had another thread dealing with this but not sure if I should PaB about it. My problem is that a casino wrongly accused me of chargeback. I have never done this and CDS looked into it and ruled in my favor and I was subsequently paid for my winnings. However, I was put on some kind of list by the casino that was trying to not pay me. Thus, I cannot deposit at ANY RTG casino at all now. I want off of this list of course and deservedly so. This is so very wrong. Since I am totally innocent of anything even close to a chargeback, I am looking for a way to get OFF of whatever this list is. Then I can resume making deposits and playing at places like clubworld.
Im not sure if I should PaB or if you even have contacts that can fix this or if you even know what to do but I would take your advice and guidance right now and be very happy with it. Thank you.

I don't know whether you should PAB really. Club World was only conforming with RTG's laid-down procedures in not accepting players that are on a list where chargebacks are alleged to have been made. Its unlikely that Club World was the one who placed you on the list as you had made several successful deposits with them. If anything, can you name the casino who originally denied you your winnings but where CDS ruled in your favour. This could well be the culprit ie the one who placed you on the list. Frankly, Max cant help you with the PAB because he has nothing to work with. Let the good man have a little rest. Poor guy. Of course Max could think otherwise.
 
Chu has got it more or less right, however I'd need to know the casino involved before I could say for certain. Send me a PM with that info and I'll get back to you Monday morning.

Or you could take your chances by cutting to the chase and PAB straight away. Do read the PAB FAQ first though (required reading for all PABers). There's a link to it in my signature block.
 
I'd still like someone to find out more about this list.

No list should exist that players aren't aware of and have no defensive course of action against.

That would be about as fair as tossing every casino into the rogue pit with no explanation as to why and offering no means to pull yourself back out.
 
This is a perennial problem for the reasons Skiny cites, and it has always been difficult to get provider and/or operational management to even admit that there are such blacklists in online gambling.

I've always felt it is inherently unfair for anyone to unilaterally put you on a blacklist circulated to others without having to inform you or adduce a shred of evidence, and worse deny you the opportunity to appeal and present your side of the argument for independent and unbiased mediation.
 
You'd think that a casino that adds any player to this 'list' would have to show incontrovertible proof of fraud. But then again, the first casino the OP had a problem with tried to deny their winnings because of a problem with a credit card if I remember correctly....? So I'm wondering if it's possible that the credit card/chargeback issue was something that was pre-existing and had nothing to do with the first casino?

Just throwing thoughts out there - @ the OP, did you have any problem with that credit card before? Anyone try stealing it at some point where you had to block a transaction or did you ever get doublecharged and dispute the second charge or anything like that?
 
This is a perennial problem for the reasons Skiny cites, and it has always been difficult to get provider and/or operational management to even admit that there are such blacklists in online gambling.

I've always felt it is inherently unfair for anyone to unilaterally put you on a blacklist circulated to others without having to inform you or adduce a shred of evidence, and worse deny you the opportunity to appeal and present your side of the argument for independent and unbiased mediation.

There was a recent Panorama program here about "secret blacklists". It featured one found in the construction industry, and the ICO shut it down and levied fines when it was discovered. It had been running for YEARS, and a number of prior investigations had found nothing, so the construction industry had gotten away with it for years. It caused the government to strengthen the law on blacklists, they are now specifically illegal, however, the scope of this change may be limited to employment. There is a more general principle though, the ICO was able to act under existing laws, not because the blacklist was illegal to operate in itself, but because it breached individuals' data protection rights because it had no process for correcting bad data, nor appealing anything on it about oneself. This principle would also extend to blacklists within the casino industry. It's not just the keeper of the blacklist, but any USER, that the ICO can go after, so having the player blacklist operated from Panama will not help if an EU based casino used it to vet a customer.

Even the land casino blacklist of "card counters" was deemed illegal and had to be dismantled. It does not remove the right to deny service though, it just means that information cannot be passed to a central point and used to serve all participating casinos with lists of "card counters" to check for at the door.

In the case of negative entries in credit reference files, including for making chargebacks for getting out of paying for something, there is a requirement to remove said entry if the customer was legally in the right to make the claim against the merchant. Cases here have been where a company incorrectly invoices someone, and then lists them as a non payer with credit reference agencies for refusing to pay the incorrect invoice. Once the issue has been sorted out, and the debt not proven, the company is legally required to remove the negative entry, and thus no future potential creditor should see it.

Credit reference files have been found to contain many mistakes, and they have come under pressure to "clean up their act" from consumer groups in particular. I do not believe that these secret casino industry blacklists are any more accurate than the regulated credit reference lists, if anything, their accuracy is probably far worse.
 
Casino was surprised that you just jumped on the bandwagon straight to CDS instead of having problem resolved first with a Rep here and the PAB. They are clearly disappointed with you. They don't want you back with them again. So as a result of per request by CDS they paid you fully and put you on global ban with Club World RTG group permanently. You can't do anything. Thats their decision. They have evidence against you and you have your own evidence with CDS against them. Its a stalemate. CDS understood that Club World had made decision and CDS accepted that. There no can do. But let just wait see what Max got to say. If he says no to PAB then oh well, time to move on really.

The casino doesn't have a rep here. They are in the rogue pit. It is Rushmore group. Club World DOES want me back. My account is in good standing with them. I just cant deposit because of this falsely putting me on the "list" thing. Club world didn't make any decision. I think you lost what was going on here. Your responses don't seem to make sense unless you believe my complaint to be against clubworld, which has been established is not the case at all.
 
I don't know whether you should PAB really. Club World was only conforming with RTG's laid-down procedures in not accepting players that are on a list where chargebacks are alleged to have been made. Its unlikely that Club World was the one who placed you on the list as you had made several successful deposits with them. If anything, can you name the casino who originally denied you your winnings but where CDS ruled in your favour. This could well be the culprit ie the one who placed you on the list. Frankly, Max cant help you with the PAB because he has nothing to work with. Let the good man have a little rest. Poor guy. Of course Max could think otherwise.

Right. I have no interested in complaining about CLUBWORLD. I love them. I want to play there. My complaint is with the rushmore group for falsely putting me on this cheaters list. I want that fixed so that I can play anywhere online again. Because of trying to keep my winnings and putting me on this list falsely, I cant play anywhere at the moment.
 
This is a perennial problem for the reasons Skiny cites, and it has always been difficult to get provider and/or operational management to even admit that there are such blacklists in online gambling.

I've always felt it is inherently unfair for anyone to unilaterally put you on a blacklist circulated to others without having to inform you or adduce a shred of evidence, and worse deny you the opportunity to appeal and present your side of the argument for independent and unbiased mediation.

You nailed it. I am just stuck now. I want to play. My accounts are in good standing everywhere (except rushmore I guess) but CDS knows that I didn't chargeback anywhere... yet I am still being punished because a rogue tried to be cute. It is extraordinarily frustrating for me. Thank you.
 
You'd think that a casino that adds any player to this 'list' would have to show incontrovertible proof of fraud. But then again, the first casino the OP had a problem with tried to deny their winnings because of a problem with a credit card if I remember correctly....? So I'm wondering if it's possible that the credit card/chargeback issue was something that was pre-existing and had nothing to do with the first casino?

Just throwing thoughts out there - @ the OP, did you have any problem with that credit card before? Anyone try stealing it at some point where you had to block a transaction or did you ever get doublecharged and dispute the second charge or anything like that?

No actually. I only opened these prepaid cards specifically so that I could play online. I have never purchased anything with them other than at a casino. I have had a few of them closed when visa figures out it is for online gaming but I just go buy another for $4 or so. I have only been playing online since July 29 roughly, so I haven't a long history but I can show that I have never charged back. Not with any card. Plus these are prepaid so I don't think that you really even can do a chargeback.
 
Well, the Rushmore group does not exactly enjoy a good industry reputation - an examination of the threads here alone shows some pretty questionable attitudes towards players in the past.
 
I've tweaked the thread title a bit to help focus the issue. If anyone objects please let me know, preferably by PM.
 
I think its quite probable that Rushmore fabricated a chargeback by the OP to wriggle themselves out of payment. Even CDS, who usually sides with casinos, rogue or not, couldn't accept this and favoured the player on this occasion. So though some players may be led into believing Rushmore has turned over a new leaf the opposite is true. Avoid the damn place people and forget about their 10k freeroll.
 
So, who exactly is blocking the deposits elsewhere?

Given that these are prepaid cards, surely getting a new one would free you from an old card number that has been blacklisted.

I can only imagine that the block is being operated by RTG themselves, rather than the processor used by Club World. If so, the best approach would be Club World pressuring RTG to comply with the decision of their own in house disputes resolution service and cancel the block.


If Rushmore have lost out, it's because VISA found out and blocked some of their due funds. This is NOT the same thing as a "player making a chargeback", but in the USA is a fairly common occurrence that casinos like to keep quiet about.

US facing casinos are KNOWINGLY taking the risk that money bound for players will be seized or blocked en route, and that they are expected to effectively pay twice in order to ensure players don't lose out. What has also come out of the Full Tilt case is that significant amounts of DEPOSIT money is not making it to casinos and poker rooms, and operators are crediting players whilst having no certainty of receiving the funds. If VISA have repeatedly "found out" about earlier cards being used for gambling and shut them down, it's possible that they also shut down the movement of any funds still in transit, so that they never reached Rushmore. Faced with a big payout, they may have decided to pull the "chargeback" excuse in order to cover these VISA inspired losses. The motive is that Rushmore are seriously underfunded, and are struggling to pay players, yet need to pay enough players in order to keep the rest depositing. They are underfunded most likely due to the level of leakage of funds down to US seizures and blocking of deposits already credited and played by players. ALL US casinos are suffering this problem, Rushmore just seems to be suffering more than many others.

US players too are taking the same big risks, as if their casino goes under before paying them, they are unlikely to ever see the money.
 
That's correct. It is RTG methinks. Whenever I go to an RTG casino to deposit now, I click on the cc button and a box pops up that states I am unable to deposit via CC method at this time. Which makes me totally unable to play viably. However, I received a call from another casino that I am in good standing with. They were wondering why I hadn't played like I usually do. I told them the story and they said they will look into it but they couldn't promise me anything. I will be so relieved if they actually truly investigate it and rid my name from this stupid list that is causing me so many problems! Keeping my fingers crossed. :)
 
I had another thread dealing with this but not sure if I should PaB about it. My problem is that a casino wrongly accused me of chargeback. I have never done this and CDS looked into it and ruled in my favor and I was subsequently paid for my winnings. However, I was put on some kind of list by the casino that was trying to not pay me. Thus, I cannot deposit at ANY RTG casino at all now. I want off of this list of course and deservedly so. This is so very wrong. Since I am totally innocent of anything even close to a chargeback, I am looking for a way to get OFF of whatever this list is. Then I can resume making deposits and playing at places like clubworld.
Im not sure if I should PaB or if you even have contacts that can fix this or if you even know what to do but I would take your advice and guidance right now and be very happy with it. Thank you.

OMG. this is so unfair. It is wicked they put you on the blacklist and you can't even deposit and play at other RTG casinos, when you never chargeback. I really hope Max or someone can get you out of this.
 
That's correct. It is RTG methinks. Whenever I go to an RTG casino to deposit now, I click on the cc button and a box pops up that states I am unable to deposit via CC method at this time. Which makes me totally unable to play viably. However, I received a call from another casino that I am in good standing with. They were wondering why I hadn't played like I usually do. I told them the story and they said they will look into it but they couldn't promise me anything. I will be so relieved if they actually truly investigate it and rid my name from this stupid list that is causing me so many problems! Keeping my fingers crossed. :)

RTG is merely the software supplier, so how come they can forcibly overrule an operator in respect of which players they accept deposits from?

RTG seems FAR more involved than they would have us believed. Apparently, RTG don't even license the software to operators, they license the whole thing to a third party (Hastings) who in turn deal with the operators. The whole POINT was to distance RTG as far as possible from the actual running of the casinos. If RTG are calling the shots over the blacklist, processors, and operators, then they cannot claim to be "just a developer of gaming software", and are thus more directly involved with the act of supplying an "illegal" service to the US. They are also involved in the "processing" side, which is what UIGEA is REALLY aimed at.

Given that this is a block on a PLAYER, rather than a specific card, and is applied at the software level, this is beyond even a particular processor running a blacklist. It's a list that ALL processing between players and RTG casino passes through, which suggests that RTG themselves have routine access to the personal details of every player, which is at odds with the position that Microgaming have said they have, in that MGS have no direct access to the details of any of the players in the network, this being the preserve of the individual operators.
 
That's correct. It is RTG methinks. Whenever I go to an RTG casino to deposit now, I click on the cc button and a box pops up that states I am unable to deposit via CC method at this time. Which makes me totally unable to play viably. However, I received a call from another casino that I am in good standing with. They were wondering why I hadn't played like I usually do. I told them the story and they said they will look into it but they couldn't promise me anything. I will be so relieved if they actually truly investigate it and rid my name from this stupid list that is causing me so many problems! Keeping my fingers crossed. :)

I recently opened a paste and pay account where i can use my re paid to buy the voucher. Maybe this will help.
 
I think its quite probable that Rushmore fabricated a chargeback by the OP to wriggle themselves out of payment. Even CDS, who usually sides with casinos, rogue or not, couldn't accept this and favoured the player on this occasion. So though some players may be led into believing Rushmore has turned over a new leaf the opposite is true. Avoid the damn place people and forget about their 10k freeroll.

Same thing I said earlier. Casinos do this crap (placing people on a list) and there's no way to appeal it. It's costing other casinos players because they share this list. And think the depositer is Guilty. This system needs to be scrapped. And a better method needs to be in placed.
 
I believe its a cookie that was placed on your computer. Not by RTG but by the processing company. Go try and register on another computer at another RTG casino. It may allow you to deposit...
 
Just some random thoughts...

Has the OP ever self-excluded from any RTG casino group?

If the OP is on the up and up I would truly like to see something done about this, though I have no suggestion as to how to proceed. Is this something that Max could even deal with if a PAB is filed?

USA players who are blocked from depositing at RTG are pretty much dead in the water as there are very few good casinos where we can play.

Has the OP signed up at say.... Sloto's Rival casino to see if you can play there? Just wondering how far this 'blacklist' thing goes.

I suggest the OP contact the Club World rep here on the forum and see if they can at least clarify the problem and perhaps even bypass this 'blacklist' for play at their casino(s).

As players we are very limited as to what we can actually do ourselves when caught in a catch-22 (talk to the hand) situation at online casinos.

Now... I'll go feed the office cat (who is attempting to sit on the keyboard) and get out of everyone's hair... :)
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Meister Ratings

Back
Top