Self Exclusion - Major flaws

[Bloatgoat]

You know, back in Holland, there where a few nummerous lawsuits related to the state's casino. In general there where 3 cases that really caught my attention. One of 'm was a accountant of subaru in the netherlands, who gambled away 29 million (!) euro of money that belonged to Subaru holding. A few things happend that where completely irresponsible by for example,

- Letting the player access the gates normally for personell so he would avoid registration upon entry.
- Letting the player gamble for hundred of thousands euro's and not ask one single question.
- Providing the gambler with expensive hotels, prostitutes (yes, amsterdam, duh)
- Eventually Subaru settling down with Holland casino to pay back a huge amount of (lost) money.

All signs that the player had a problem where kind of ignored.

Another player, gambled away hundreds of thousands over the course of years. He wanted a life time ban and he got it. Years later, he and his collegues where going to the casino, the guy having a conversation with staff, to allow him back in again, he's cured, he's healed, he's doing so much better, to finaly lose 100k or so and then sueing the casino for not taking responsilibity. He lost, obviously, because if the judge would agree to, alot more of these lawsuits would follow towards the casino.

Third occasion, another older guy, lifetime ban, was a problem gambler as well and did'nt even look at playing 5k a hand on blackjack, eventually lost everything. Got himself a lifetime ban and later revoked that lifetime ban again to start playing again. Phonecalls being recorded, lawsuit that follows, saying that the casino neglected their responsilibity related to keeping him out.

Bottomline: in all these cases, it's all about the player. If you really want to stop gambling, the last thing you should do is being busy on forums with huge threads about huge wins. Just stay away from any of that gambling stimulation. Go on holliday for 2 weeks, search a different hobby, start painting your house, GET DISTRACTION.

Because curing from a gambling problem is over and over again stop doing what you do and change the chapter here. You've tried everything you can and it did'nt work out. Gambling is a illusion printed in your mind. Really, if your strong enough, you can do it. If you can conquer this you can conquer everything in life that's hitting on you. Even i can stop even when i'm winning and feeling on cloud nine.

It's a lack of any discipline. Slots pretty much made you go out everything you stand for. Capture your own mind with their algorithms, triggers and near misses all over the place.

 

[AR1886]

Please read the thread, it would serve better than accusations of lack of discipline etc.

 

[EkJR]

Just reading this thread now.

It's very clear in the UK now for players and operators. If you are on Gamstop and excluded you should not have a sniff of depositing and playing on any site registered on Gamstop for the following reasons:

1. The operator checks Gamstop on sign up details.
2. The operator checks their own exclusion register against sign up details
3. Under new verification rules you can deposit money but cannot play a single spin until they have verified your identity, at a minimum Name, Address and DOB. Because these 3 things are also the founding principles for the Gamstop check then any player should be caught, duff details or not
4. If the casino fail the above step they either need to honour wins or refund losses, it's a total win win for the player(some will some wont but any court in the land would favour the player either way). The UKGC are not confirming but have said as much in discussions with them.

So...the onus is 100% on the casino to fulfill the terms of their licence agreement otherwise they are in no position to argue against refunds or payout of winnings.

That's why casino operators MUST have working systems in place as it will land them in serious hot water otherwise.

The only circumstance where the operator would win is if they followed the procedures but the player had not updated Gamstop details, such as changing address. In that case the casino would be entitled to keep deposits and any winnings.

 

[AR1886]

It’s just a shame that’s not really happening @EkJR.

 

[TravellingRecluse]

Just reading this thread now.

It's very clear in the UK now for players and operators. If you are on Gamstop and excluded you should not have a sniff of depositing and playing on any site registered on Gamstop for the following reasons:

1. The operator checks Gamstop on sign up details.
2. The operator checks their own exclusion register against sign up details
3. Under new verification rules you can deposit money but cannot play a single spin until they have verified your identity, at a minimum Name, Address and DOB. Because these 3 things are also the founding principles for the Gamstop check then any player should be caught, duff details or not
4. If the casino fail the above step they either need to honour wins or refund losses, it's a total win win for the player(some will some wont but any court in the land would favour the player either way). The UKGC are not confirming but have said as much in discussions with them.

So...the onus is 100% on the casino to fulfill the terms of their licence agreement otherwise they are in no position to argue against refunds or payout of winnings.

That's why casino operators MUST have working systems in place as it will land them in serious hot water otherwise.

The only circumstance where the operator would win is if they followed the procedures but the player had not updated Gamstop details, such as changing address. In that case the casino would be entitled to keep deposits and any winnings.

Agreed, unless it’s Bingo.com/Unibet who have come out with total defiance that it’s my fault for using an email address that was difference and using my legal middle name.

Many others have realised they have failed in their obligations and refunded me. My GamStop is now as up to date as it can be bar a DNA sample.

 

[Slottery]

Agreed, unless it’s Bingo.com/Unibet who have come out with total defiance that it’s my fault for using an email address that was difference and using my legal middle name.

Many others have realised they have failed in their obligations and refunded me. My GamStop is now as up to date as it can be bar a DNA sample.

Your official middle name might verify these pre-deposit checks as it's part of your full name and is in official database where these were checked. Gamstop probably didn't recognize you because of different name and email. Good if you now have these all details up to date in Gamstop which hopefully prevent this to happen when details are matching.

 

[AR1886]

That’s where I’ve got a bit of frustration too, my GamStop was always up to date, I’m just in a better place with my issue now meaning I’m not gambling. The only refund I got was due to someone else chasing on my behalf.

 

[trancemonkey]

I wonder if you take all these players that are excluded, that signed up using different aliasses and still played, how much revenue that in general is. When you know that number, you learn about the 'interest' of casino's that so call work with instances that should protect people from still gambling while being excluded.

As long as people are depositting and being stupid, the rules are not going to change.

Casinos dont make the rules, the regulators do. Yes, you could argue that the casinos should be more proactive... and I would agree... but also this odd idea that somehow the casinos are solely responsible for people trying their damned hardest to circumvent the rules is ridiculous.

That's like saying BMW are responsible for all the drivers who drive them being utter asshats when driving...

 

[AR1886]

I’ve taken my cases and experiences with a few bookmakers to the UKGC, if anything in the hope they take a look into the practices with these places. It seems strange that IBAS don’t deal with these issues and the UKGC don’t handle individual cases - so does this essentially mean the bookmakers call the shots?

 

[Moom]

I’ve taken my cases and experiences with a few bookmakers to the UKGC, if anything in the hope they take a look into the practices with these places. It seems strange that IBAS don’t deal with these issues and the UKGC don’t handle individual cases - so does this essentially mean the bookmakers call the shots?

Have you looked through all their terms and conditions to see if there is anything you can use?

 

[AR1886]

Yeah, I also forwarded to those in complaint. My attempts to place a bet by using my partners name probably leaves me with no chance, though all other details were mine and on GamStop.

Every single one has also required the payment method to be in the name of the account holder - though again that only seems to apply when they don’t want to pay out...

 

[Moom]

Yeah, I also forwarded to those in complaint. My attempts to place a bet by using my partners name probably leaves me with no chance, though all other details were mine and on GamStop.

Every single one has also required the payment method to be in the name of the account holder - though again that only seems to apply when they don’t want to pay out...

They can prevent that from happening automatically with the payment method not in your name being used. They choose not to though. Some casinos will block any payment from somebody not the account holder. The vast majority of them will not. They are supposed to verify the source of funds.

 

[AR1886]

Really? I’ve not had any experience of deposits being rejected. It’s very indicative of the illness though that withdrawals are near impossible, in my frenzy I gambled on nine different sites in my partners name, there was never a problem depositing, only withdrawing. I’ve said already, that none of the bookies I used paid out winnings.

 

[Moom]

There are casinos who will refuse a deposit from a card not in the name of the account holder.

I fully understand how frustrating it is for you. It is a one way thing and a win/win for them. What you can do it ask very specifically about their terms on third party funding. If their terms are unfair, you might be able to argue this to IBAS. I understand them holding funds incase of an investigation, but they should not be taking the funds and refusing to refund. Offer to send them a signed letter from the card holder saying that you have permission to use the card.

 

[EkJR]

I’ve taken my cases and experiences with a few bookmakers to the UKGC, if anything in the hope they take a look into the practices with these places. It seems strange that IBAS don’t deal with these issues and the UKGC don’t handle individual cases - so does this essentially mean the bookmakers call the shots?

Having spoken with you I have included partial details of your cases in my report to the UKGC as well. The casinos are a shambles when it comes to RG issues, they already know they cant direct them to IBAS and are hopeful that it's an isolated case and the UKGC wont act.

At this point I would like to specifically call out 32red and sister sites. I believe I am now up to 19 accounts despite being permanently excluded. One I actually won with what I deposited on, Bingo.com, and they wont pay the winnings. Returned the deposits though. Funnily enough on the other 18 accounts they haven't returned deposits. This is stealing essentially. The 32red rep can feel free to post as well but having exchanged PMs with him I cant see that going well. A shambles of a company and your day will come very very soon, sooner than you know! Advertise all over the place in the UK as the responsible company but they are far from it. An organisation driven by profit only and nothing else.

Thanks also for the SAR which myself and lawyers have gone through...see you soon you *snip*

 

[TravellingRecluse]

Having spoken with you I have included partial details of your cases in my report to the UKGC as well. The casinos are a shambles when it comes to RG issues, they already know they cant direct them to IBAS and are hopeful that it's an isolated case and the UKGC wont act.

At this point I would like to specifically call out 32red and sister sites. I believe I am now up to 19 accounts despite being permanently excluded. One I actually won with what I deposited on, Bingo.com, and they wont pay the winnings. Returned the deposits though. Funnily enough on the other 18 accounts they haven't returned deposits. This is stealing essentially. The 32red rep can feel free to post as well but having exchanged PMs with him I cant see that going well. A shambles of a company and your day will come very very soon, sooner than you know! Advertise all over the place in the UK as the responsible company but they are far from it. An organisation driven by profit only and nothing else.

Thanks also for the SAR which myself and lawyers have gone through...see you soon you fucking wankbags

Interesting you got bingo.com to return your deposits.

I lost overall and they told me to get f**ked.

One rule for one and one for another it seems.

 

[AR1886]

That’s only because @EkJR won though, no chance of a refund otherwise.

 

[TravellingRecluse]

That’s only because @EkJR won though, no chance of a refund otherwise.

That’s even more justification that the system is corrupt. If they don’t pay out winnings then surely they shouldn’t be allowed to keep losses. At worst the casino gets to break evens whereas the player has no chance of gaining

 

[TravellingRecluse]

Interesting you got bingo.com to return your deposits.

I lost overall and they told me to get f**ked.

One rule for one and one for another it seems.

What is also interesting in my situation is that they claim they couldn’t detect a GS registration with only an email address being different and me including my legal middle name yet when they did their investigations they were able to detect that I had 3 other historical @Unibet Rep accounts that were at different addresses around the UK over the last 5-10 years.

These would most likely have had different phone numbers etc let alone home addresses.

How were you so thorough when it came this phase but not so upfront? Also you have failed to detect that I was already self excluded @32red yet decided not to include this information in your investigation.

 

[AR1886]

We reserve the right to withhold funds if the Cardholder's name is different from the name on the Account or where We have sufficient reason to believe that the Card holder/User and Account holder is not one and the same person.

BoyleSports’ policy on this above, the no win situation highlighted again.

 

[Moom]

We reserve the right to withhold funds if the Cardholder's name is different from the name on the Account or where We have sufficient reason to believe that the Card holder/User and Account holder is not one and the same person.

BoyleSports’ policy on this above, the no win situation highlighted again.

Do you have winnings from this? Getting them to refund losses is very hard. It is easier to get them to refund the initial deposits if you have winnings in the casino account.

You need to ask them why they withhold funds. Tell them you will send them a letter signed with the cardholders permission to use the card so they know no fraud is going on. If they still refuse then you might be able to use the consumer rights act. That is very clearly an unfair term if you have proven to them it is not fraud and they are still refusing to refund the money or give any winnings.

Although, I understand asking them and getting them to answer these simple questions can be very hard. It usually just ends with them closing all communication with you and asking you to go to IBAS, knowing that IBAS almost definitely will not deal with your complaint. This is the nature of gambling. You are dealing with an industry built on ripping you off.

 

[AR1886]

I don’t have winnings no, though I know exactly where you are coming from there - in each case here the best scenario has been having initial deposits returned and no payment of winnings.

 

[AR1886]

Here’s @GentingAffiliates attempts to justify their policies.

Thank you for your email. Your summary is incorrect and not what I said, and the deposits to this account were made in the account holder's name anyway. We will of course co-operate fully with any enquiry received from IBAS or the UKGC. The fundamental issue here is that you registered using falsified details; and that is your responsibility. As such I will not enter into any further correspondence on the matter; as advised you have received our final response, and we will co-operate fully with any enquiry received from IBAS or the UKGC.

Kind regards,

Dom

I’ve told Dow numerous times now that the deposits weren’t made in the account holders name, he simply ignores that and instead states falsities as fact and advised of no further correspondence.

This along with ignoring key parts of my GamStop exclusion, I just don’t understand why none of this is picked up. We’ve discussed in depth the battle with problem gambling and there’s no hiding that it leads to mistakes, though there’s so many who simply wash their hands of these scenarios and responsibilities.

 

[Supababe]

I can not believe, in this day and age, that players can deposit using a card that is not in their name.
About 12 years ago I went on a crazy tilt session involving £ thousands at a highly regarded (accredited) casino. In desperation (at silly-o-clock) I reached for my boyfriends wallet and wad amazed that I was allowed to deposit with it. 1. Totally different name. 2. Clearly a MasterCard.
I then proceeded to max out his credit card to the tune of £2k-£3k.
Boy did I learn my lesson and didn’t play again for a good 5 years. And now, only with minimal deposits.

Being such a long time ago I kinda forgave the casino and accepted responsibility for my own crazy actions, especially as I remain to this day at the top level VIP (for what it’s worth).

But I am shocked that this is still possible.
Registering accounts with false details is one thing, clearly deception on the part of the player, but to not have systems in place to prevent, what is effectively theft, is quite another.

 

[colinsunderland]

I'm not actually sure a retailer can check the name on a card transaction, certainly when i've had merchant accounts in the past we couldn't. We could do a code 10 (suspicious transaction) call if we wanted but even then we wouldn't get 100% confirmation of the name, just told to decline or not.
The only checks we could do were on remote transactions, where you would type the house number and numbers from postcode in, if they didn't match, then the transaction would be declined. It was about 5 years ago now though so may have changed since then.