RTP of games, how is it monitored, by whom and at what point is action taken?

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
Hello!

I was just wondering how can a game (Tombstone) advertised at approx 96% RTP run at significantly lower RTP for a very long time? In my knowledge, the only sites which show the true RTP of games are videoslots.com and mrvegas.com. I know for a fact, that mrvegas is approx one year old, and their RTP shows 87.9%. Videoslots has been around for years, and I guess they have had Tombstone from the games publication - yet it still has approx 4% lower RTP than this game should have (92.1%). I know the game is volatile, but there has most certainly been billions of spins on this game in this timeframe. All casinos say that the RTP should come close to the TRTP over time, but in my opinion 4% (let alone 9%) is quite a difference.

So, at what point is the RTP checked and by who and what actions are taken if the game constantly runs on too low RTP?

Obviously the game exists on plenty other casinos as well, so it might be that some of them is sporting way over 100%RTP over the years, but the only available data is from the sites showing the true RTP. And videoslots is quite popular site..

PS. Before anyone says the game is not popular enough, I checked on mrvegas.com, Tombstone is on page 525/544 when sorted by least played ascending (10/page)...

PPS. For instance Bonanza is spot on (96%) on both casinos.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
1. A higher RTP slot provides a more enjoyable user experience
2. Anything below 100% will result in the casino getting all your money eventually anyway
3. The lower it is the quicker you'll lose certainly but that's not good for player retention
4. The risk of being caught out either by rogue employees or statistical analysis would be almost a certainty
1. We are constantly told on this this forum that 'there is no difference in play' whether the game runs at 94-98% (I think eg. @trancemonkey told this on another thread I read). This should be the case if the RTP is calculated on LOADS of spins. So I dont think a lower RTP affects the user experience?
2. You do realize the difference, if house edge is eg. 4% - 8%. If we are talking a billion 1€ spins, 92% RTP means that casino/provider gets 4% more of that money (as a VERY simplified example).
3. see parts 1.2.
4. Rogue employees might be a thing , true. But as proven by this thread, it seems no one either knows or tells if this is even monitored by anyone not gaining direct income from lowered RTP.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
Not sure what you mean.
If you doubt a games trtp you write a script to send a few million spins and see how close it ends up. If you don't believe the demo mode is the same and want to use real money, different accounts, bets etc you use something like slot tracker.
I am sure that videoslots and mrvegas has been played 'a few million' spins. You cannot expect a single player to play 'a few million' spins on real money - and even if they do, the reply would be 'not enough spins played'.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
No.
If you did a single $100 bet, your average loss would be $10 PER SPIN.
Any RTP less than 100% assures you of walking away with $0, eventually.

Regarding "compensation" I've heard mainly of games that pay over RTP due to bugs, the only one I recall paying under was one that had an unwinnable jackpot? And they compensated everyone who had played it which was a pretty impressive bookmaking feat. Can't remember the game or casino though.

What it comes down to is the game providers say "we are regulated by so-and-so", and certain players will always say "well we don't trust so-and-so" to which the game providers can only say "so?"

The reason I trust RTP to be as stated is there's no reason for it not to be.
I don't thik it is 'impressive bookmakin feat' if it is against the law to advertise a jackpot which cannot be won? Isn't it the least a casino could do? To return the money to players who were lied to? Anyways, I would love to know more about this case, can it be found somewhere on the internet?

Also, the providers can say so much more than 'so?'. I have asked several times the simple question on this thread:

Is there anyone monitoring the RTP who doesn't gain direct income from the games running at lower RTP? If so, how often is the RTP tested and what happens if the game runs at too low RTP - is the money returned to the players? What is the approved RTP deviation in high-volatile games?

Basic, simple questions which still hasn't been answered by anyone of 'people in the industry'.
 

bamberfishcake

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Location
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Not sure what you mean.
If you doubt a games trtp you write a script to send a few million spins and see how close it ends up. If you don't believe the demo mode is the same and want to use real money, different accounts, bets etc you use something like slot tracker.

Read the thread or the last few comments for a better understanding of what I mean and the entire purpose of the thread :)

When you do that I may consider writing a script for a few million spins - hilarious :p
 

abuyang

Registered User
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Location
Lanna, Thailand
If there was only one gaming software provider out there - the argument by Neon Claw could be quite legible. In fact, for many years the situation was quite similar to that with only 3-4 big players (MG, Playtech, Netent…) sharing the whole market. Then we had an influx of the dozens and dozens new providers which happened around year 2016. And this is when the troubles with the ‘flexible and reduced RTP’ were introduced for the first time in the almost 20 years of the online casino gambling history.
In my opinion, the gaming providers (RNG games providers) industry should be strictly regulated and controlled (in the LIVE MODE regime) with the number of available licenses limited to no more than 5. Otherwise, we might never see the fair online gambling ever again.
 

neon claws

Non-Gambler
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Location
Australia
1. We are constantly told on this this forum that 'there is no difference in play' whether the game runs at 94-98% (I think eg. @trancemonkey told this on another thread I read). This should be the case if the RTP is calculated on LOADS of spins. So I dont think a lower RTP affects the user experience?
2. You do realize the difference, if house edge is eg. 4% - 8%. If we are talking a billion 1€ spins, 92% RTP means that casino/provider gets 4% more of that money (as a VERY simplified example).
3. see parts 1.2.
4. Rogue employees might be a thing , true. But as proven by this thread, it seems no one either knows or tells if this is even monitored by anyone not gaining direct income from lowered RTP.
1. I don't recall anyone ever saying there's no difference in play for different RTP versions, nor would I know why they'd say that.
2. Any house edge results in the casino getting the players entire bankroll. A higher house edge just means they get it in fewer spins. Reducing RTP by 4% does not magically make the player have 4% more money in their bank account to lose.
4. Your argument here is predicated upon lowered RTP being profitable and there is no source of accountability that you would be satisfied with. I could tell you that it is monitored by the pope himself and you'd say he's on the payroll. Slot Tracker exists, also so you can check actual RTP over many thousands of users game sessions.
 

neon claws

Non-Gambler
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Location
Australia
If there was only one gaming software provider out there - the argument by Neon Claw could be quite legible. In fact, for many years the situation was quite similar to that with only 3-4 big players (MG, Playtech, Netent…) sharing the whole market. Then we had an influx of the dozens and dozens new providers which happened around year 2016. And this is when the troubles with the ‘flexible and reduced RTP’ were introduced for the first time in the almost 20 years of the online casino gambling history.
In my opinion, the gaming providers (RNG games providers) industry should be strictly regulated and controlled (in the LIVE MODE regime) with the number of available licenses limited to no more than 5. Otherwise, we might never see the fair online gambling ever again.
Why would the number of providers affect anything I've said? Since when do monopolies result in market fairness? Why 5? Who gets to choose those five?
 

goatwack

We call him....Humperdoo
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So the industry is regularly audited by......Slot Tracker?

Are companies beholden to it as the golden standard? Because if say a game ran at 79% for that month, would the game's RTP be read as 79%?

And if the 'overall spins' figure is a few percentage points off the companies' advertized RTP, does that fall under the pretext of TRTP? Or have not enough spins been run through it yet, like e.g several billion?
 

neon claws

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Jan 5, 2020
Location
Australia
I advised slot tracker because I do not know who runs the audits, I'm just a regular player, and I know that whoever does run the audits will not be satisfactory for the people in these threads, so it would seem that a solution to crowd source real life slot statistics, aka slot tracker, should be exactly what they'd be after if they had any interest in attempting to prove their point about fake RTP's.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
1. I don't recall anyone ever saying there's no difference in play for different RTP versions, nor would I know why they'd say that.
2. Any house edge results in the casino getting the players entire bankroll. A higher house edge just means they get it in fewer spins. Reducing RTP by 4% does not magically make the player have 4% more money in their bank account to lose.
4. Your argument here is predicated upon lowered RTP being profitable and there is no source of accountability that you would be satisfied with. I could tell you that it is monitored by the pope himself and you'd say he's on the payroll. Slot Tracker exists, also so you can check actual RTP over many thousands of users game sessions.
1. the thread was this one: RTP is too low.. - Casinomeister Forum. eg. @trancemonkey said: Upping the RTP to 98% would make very little difference to how it feels. The games would be very dull if the RTP is exact short -term, but that is not the point of this thread.
2. exactly, that's why I said it was very simplified example. One also has to consider other factors (such as 4% lower RTP games causes less withdrawals eg.). However, the RTP is the only thing a player can follow.
4. What? I dont care what you say (if you are not in the industry) :) This is an industry where players play these games on promises on randomness, honesty etc. Dont you agree that a player has the right to know who does this testing constantly? Why would you believe providers / casinos blindly, they make money of these games? Industry people here ask why would they lower RTP, The true question is why wouldn't they (which still isn't answered properly).
 
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manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
I advised slot tracker because I do not know who runs the audits, I'm just a regular player, and I know that whoever does run the audits will not be satisfactory for the people in these threads, so it would seem that a solution to crowd source real life slot statistics, aka slot tracker, should be exactly what they'd be after if they had any interest in attempting to prove their point about fake RTP's.
Why would you think we wouldnt be satisfied in the answer - how would you know if no answer at all is given? :)
 

neon claws

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Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Location
Australia
And if the 'overall spins' figure is a few percentage points off the companies' advertized RTP, does that fall under the pretext of TRTP? Or have not enough spins been run through it yet, like e.g several billion?
If you're that interested you can work out exactly how probable an outcome is based on whatever sized sample you choose
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
but generally speaking for all but the highest volatility games they should regress to the mean fairly rapidly, so if it's a little bit off the trtp you can at least see how it's trending and extrapolate.
 

manttih

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Nov 18, 2016
If you're that interested you can work out exactly how probable an outcome is based on whatever sized sample you choose
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
but generally speaking for all but the highest volatility games they should regress to the mean fairly rapidly, so if it's a little bit off the trtp you can at least see how it's trending and extrapolate.
As said previously in this thread, medium-volatility-games approved deviation (as said by UKGC) is approx 1% in million spins. No data is available what's the case with highest volatility games.
 

neon claws

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Location
Australia
Why would you think we wouldnt be satisfied in the answer - how would you know if no answer at all is given? :)
Ok, if all you want to know is who's testing the games then here's a bunch of them: vegasslotsonline.com/gaming-fairness-and-testing-companies/

As to ongoing monitoring; you're proposing that they might have a high RTP slot cleared through the testing house and then push out a lower RTP version under the radar? Or that the initial testing just got the RTP wrong?

The first scenario you'd need to ask an actual dev what protections are in place there, the second you'd need to ask a mathematician.

As I'm neither I'm tapping out of the thread.
 
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bamberfishcake

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Location
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I advised slot tracker because I do not know who runs the audits, I'm just a regular player, and I know that whoever does run the audits will not be satisfactory for the people in these threads, so it would seem that a solution to crowd source real life slot statistics, aka slot tracker, should be exactly what they'd be after if they had any interest in attempting to prove their point about fake RTP's.
That's very assumptive of you to declare that any audit would be sniffed at.

The whole point of this thread is to seek and find some kind of audited proof or some definition of a system.

I choose not to use slot tracker because I don't want bucket loads of apps on my computer, it might interfere with my script writing for my million spins test run.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
Ok, if all you want to know is who's testing the games then here's a bunch of them: vegasslotsonline.com/gaming-fairness-and-testing-companies/

As to ongoing monitoring; you're proposing that they might have a high RTP slot cleared through the testing house and then push out a lower RTP version under the radar? Or that the initial testing just got the RTP wrong?

The first scenario you'd need to ask an actual dev what protections are in place there, the second you'd need to ask a mathematician.

As I'm neither I'm tapping out of the thread.
Yes, I know all about the independent testers. If I was cynical, I would ask who tests the testers, as someone asked on another thread. :) Provided they are truly independent: if games are tested only once before publication by independent tester, who is to say a lower RTP version isn't inserted on casinos / the game isn't changed after this? That is exactly what we are trying to figure out on this thread. There was a thread a while ago about some BTG game, which immediately after publishing provided some serious bugs - how is this possible if the independent testers had thoroughly tested the game?
 

LoopsterAU

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When it comes to testing of slots I wonder what testing is done other than simulating the same bet over and over again x amount of times.

I doubt it would take into account real world play such as raising stakes etc.

Remember Dieselgate where the cars computer would detect that its under an audit and behave completely different to real world, doubt these games would be any different especially when there's a lot of money at stake.

As for Ecogra and Microgaming, I always found that funny where the auditor and one being audited are controlled by the same people, no conflict of interest there.
 

abuyang

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Location
Lanna, Thailand
Why would the number of providers affect anything I've said? Since when do monopolies result in market fairness? Why 5? Who gets to choose those five?


Because monopolists or even 3-4 big players (and I refer to this specific industry of RNG games providers ONLY) have a great market share and their positions are stable. Why would they risk everything by changing anything (like suddenly introducing ridiculous 84% RTP slots, for example)? The excessive competition in this industry inevitably results in the reduced RTP rat race across all the market plus hugely increases the probability of the providers rigging their games in order to fight the competition. This is exactly what we see in the current market and what supports my views more than anything else could.
 

trancemonkey

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Location
United Kingdom
Thanks Pelle,

@trancemonkey sorry to put you on the spot. I understand if you cannot say.

What's the corrective procedure by game studios to bring RTP back in line?
Corrective procedure would be to fix the game. If a game has overpaid, then under certain circumstances the provider may be liable for lost revenue to the casino(s) - depends on the contract i would imagine. If the game has underpaid, then unless it's on specific feature or something that you could narrow down so you could pay the players specific losses, then i believe that the different sometimes is made up in the way of "fines" or "donations to gambling charities" or suchlike. Again, it would depend on the regulator.

Someone earlier asked why you would admit to this if you were a casino or game provider - the answer is very simple. If you don't, and the regulators get complaints from players, or they do a random audit, and they find out - you're almost certain to lose your license or face huge penalties. So yes, to some extent it's self-policing - but so are many things. But if you get caught not self-policing, there are huge risks and penalties.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
@trancemonkey, thanks for the reply! So the money is not returned to players but as taken fines - to whom, gambling commisions? Isn't there a conflict of interest here, as I understand casinos pay gambling commissions for their license?

The question indeed is why wouldn't they. I once asked MGA about a certain games RTP , they dismissed me with the notion the game is high volatile / the game is entertainment - without even checking the data I sent them. So, what is the place a player can send complaint to? Why would gambling commission do a random audit (let alone take action) if they get their money as licenses from casinos?

Are there any examples in casinos / proviers getting these sort of fines?

These might be stupid questions, but worth asking :)
 
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trancemonkey

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Come on, you really believe that statement?

No reason for RTP to not be legit? I didn't think you were that naive.

Not saying it's not, but there are clear motives for it not to be.
No there aren't clear motives - not for any regulated company. But there will always be dodgy ones - play at any non-gamstop casino or any unregulated market, and you'll meet the dodgy ones for sure. For everyone else, the loss of license and their business is normally risk enough.

You are right to be skeptical, and i'm sure there are dodgy people and companies in the industry - but they will be the minority, not the majority
 

trancemonkey

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Location
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1. We are constantly told on this this forum that 'there is no difference in play' whether the game runs at 94-98% (I think eg. @trancemonkey told this on another thread I read). This should be the case if the RTP is calculated on LOADS of spins. So I dont think a lower RTP affects the user experience?
2. You do realize the difference, if house edge is eg. 4% - 8%. If we are talking a billion 1€ spins, 92% RTP means that casino/provider gets 4% more of that money (as a VERY simplified example).
3. see parts 1.2.
4. Rogue employees might be a thing , true. But as proven by this thread, it seems no one either knows or tells if this is even monitored by anyone not gaining direct income from lowered RTP.
I've never said number 1 - there HAS to be a difference, but how we lower the RTP in a game can mask the difference more or less depending on how you do it. For example, let's just say you have a 98% game, and 6% of all wins are over 1000x (which will be very rare). If you somehow lower that to 2% instead of 6%, the game will be almost identical with the difference being that the very high wins will be 66% less often.
 
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