RTP of games, how is it monitored, by whom and at what point is action taken?

manttih

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Nov 18, 2016
Hello!

I was just wondering how can a game (Tombstone) advertised at approx 96% RTP run at significantly lower RTP for a very long time? In my knowledge, the only sites which show the true RTP of games are videoslots.com and mrvegas.com. I know for a fact, that mrvegas is approx one year old, and their RTP shows 87.9%. Videoslots has been around for years, and I guess they have had Tombstone from the games publication - yet it still has approx 4% lower RTP than this game should have (92.1%). I know the game is volatile, but there has most certainly been billions of spins on this game in this timeframe. All casinos say that the RTP should come close to the TRTP over time, but in my opinion 4% (let alone 9%) is quite a difference.

So, at what point is the RTP checked and by who and what actions are taken if the game constantly runs on too low RTP?

Obviously the game exists on plenty other casinos as well, so it might be that some of them is sporting way over 100%RTP over the years, but the only available data is from the sites showing the true RTP. And videoslots is quite popular site..

PS. Before anyone says the game is not popular enough, I checked on mrvegas.com, Tombstone is on page 525/544 when sorted by least played ascending (10/page)...

PPS. For instance Bonanza is spot on (96%) on both casinos.
 

Kroffe

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Videoslots is using the 94.2% rtp version of Tombstone, so there is only 2% missing.
Wouldnt surprise me if Mrvegas was using a even lower version, they do that for some providers (i think PnG was 91% at Mrvegas)


But i get the feeling they are hiding something, look what happened when i went to check the rtp for separate months just now.
First time getting this error on Videoslots.

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Kroffe

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I dont know, looks pretty similar to other high volatile games.
Most months running a couple % under rtp, but you also have months where it runs at 100-115% rtp.
No idea how many spins have been made on it at Videoslots, but i highly doubt its in the billions.
But i agree that being 2% under theoretical rtp for a popular game that has been around over two years is a bit odd.

@NolimitCity - Pelle Can you see how many spins have been made on Tombstone since release, or maybe even for a specific casino (videoslots in this case)
 

manttih

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Nov 18, 2016
@Kroffe, It would be great to know how many spins have been played on the game, I asked this on mrvegas.com when the casino had been up and running for 8 months (Tombstone RTP at 75%), but they claimed not to have the data.
 

manttih

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Nov 18, 2016
@Kroffe, thanks for the info. However, 87.9% RTP is still 6% less than 94% . A year is a very long time and players are plentiful.

.. and 10e on 0,1e bet already gives one player at least 100 spins.. If only one player plays this game everyday for year at this rate, the spins would be: 3650 (excluding wins). Hundred players -> 365 000 (excluding wins), thousand players -> 3 650 000 (excluding wins) - you get my drift :)
 
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bowki

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Depending on where you come from Videoslots uses different RTPs. In Germany the RTP on Tombstone is 90.27%.

Still a difference to 87.9 but maybe they run it even lower in other countries, who knows?!
 

Kroffe

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@Kroffe, thanks for the info. However, 87.9% RTP is still 6% less than 94% . A year is a very long time and players are plentiful.

.. and 10e on 0,1e bet already gives one player at least 100 spins.. If only one player plays this game everyday for year at this rate, the spins would be: 3650 (excluding wins). Hundred players -> 36500 (excluding wins), thousand players -> 365000 (excluding wins) - you get my drift :)
I get what you mean, but i think that works more to prove my point, how big of a number one billion actually is.
If you have 10 000 tombstone fanatics playing at videoslots, they all need 100 000 spins each to reach just one billion.
Even if 100 000 people have played the game at videoslots, they still need 10k spins each to get to one billion.

Im just guessing, but i dont think its anywhere close to billions, or even one billion spins made at videoslots alone.
 

manttih

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Nov 18, 2016
@Kroffe , true that also. I dont know if there is some law or regulation stating when the RTP should be reached, and if not, what is the point of RTP at all?
@bowki, live chat on videoslots just told me there are no different RTP settings for each country.
also @Kroffe, 10 000 spins is very easy to achive - I got 2000 by just playing couple of hours on Tombstone... I am guessing I am close to 500 000 spins by now.
 

manttih

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Nov 18, 2016
@bowki, ok - then the Chat person didnt know that or lied. So I guess this page shows you the 90.27% RTP as well: /payout-ratios/ on Tombstone? Out of curiosity, can you check the whole time RTP on the game on German videoslots-site?

@NolimitCity - Pelle , can you tell me all the different RTP versions of this game and where to find the RTP on specific site (can it be found in the game itself?) . I always thought Tombstone was 96% and no other versions were in use.
 
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Tiktak30

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The way videoslots calculates the "RTP" is kinda skewed in my opinion.

The percentage shown is just: (TotalBets) / (TotalPayout) * 100 which means that a few highrollers running hot/cold can significantly change the numbers shown. I think to get the "true" RTP% they would have to take the (Return%) of every single spin and calculate the average...

I am not a math wizard & no native speaker so this might sound a bit confusing... ;-)

As an example from my own experience: I am usually lowrolling but once had a great run on Gemix hitting 20000€ twice (1x on 20€ bet and 1x on 100€ bet)... As i am highly unlikely to bet this high ever again Now my RTP% shown for this game will "forever" be way above 100%, no matter how bad i run while lowrolling...
 

casguy2016

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Proper RTP is based on the percentage won over a very long period of spins. If you double your bet the RTP isn't going to double it should stay the same. That would tell me that videoslots's calculation is fantasy at work....it means nothing.
 

Kroffe

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What?
When working out how much a slot has returned to a player (or many players) all you need is how much money has gone in and how much money has come out.
If 10k goes in and 10k comes out, thats 100% rtp no matter how many spins or different betsizes were used while spending that 10k.

7.gif
 

Tiktak30

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If 10k goes in and 10k comes out, thats 100% rtp no matter how many spins or different betsizes were used while spending that 10k.
Let me try another way of wording my thought about "true" rtp%... Just think about the following (extreme and unrealistic) example:

You make one million spins on 1€ bet and not hit a single win... Another guy makes one single spin for 1million € and wins 2million €... That´s a total of 2 million € gone in and 2 million € gone out... Does this really mean that the slot did run at 100% rtp?

Or think about throwing a coin paying 2:1 on your bet with the same outcomes as above... Do we have a "fair" coin?
 

Kroffe

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You make one million spins on 1€ bet and not hit a single win... Another guy makes one single spin for 1million € and wins 2million €... That´s a total of 2 million € gone in and 2 million € gone out... Does this really mean that the slot did run at 100% rtp?
Yes, the return for those 1 000 001 spins are 100% rtp.
What would you say the rtp is for the spins if not 100%?
 

Tiktak30

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1 million spins each returned 0x stake -> 0/1000000 -> 0% rtp
1 spin returned 2x stake -> 2/1 -> 200% rtp
1000001 spins in total returned 2x stake-> 2/1000001 -> 0.0001999998%



It might very well be that i am just mathematically challenged, but i can´t wrap my head around the thought that a game paying out twice your bet once in over a million spins can be running at 100% rtp...
 

Kroffe

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Well, using your example.

Guy1 does 1 10c spin, hits a 1000x win.
Guy2 does 1 €1 000 000 spin, sadly a deadspin.

2 spins in total returned 1000x stake -> 1000/2 -> 500%

So after eating a million (and 10 cents) and only giving back €100 the rtp is 500%?
 

Tiktak30

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Not quite... It would be 2 spins in total returned 1000x stake -> 1000/2 -> 50000% which is entirely possible with a samplesize that small.

The mathmodel / reel-layout / whatever does not change based on the betsize and does not take into account any spins made in the past. which to me means that for calculating the rtp% you can only look at the return in terms of x times stake and not at the net-result in terms of money won / lost.

@trancemonkey : even though i am sure you answered that probably a couple hundred times in your encyclopedic threads, but maybe you can provide your take / explanation on the correct calculation of rtp% - especially regarding how / if to take into account betsizes
 

ShadyFei

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Let me try another way of wording my thought about "true" rtp%... Just think about the following (extreme and unrealistic) example:

You make one million spins on 1€ bet and not hit a single win... Another guy makes one single spin for 1million € and wins 2million €... That´s a total of 2 million € gone in and 2 million € gone out... Does this really mean that the slot did run at 100% rtp?

Or think about throwing a coin paying 2:1 on your bet with the same outcomes as above... Do we have a "fair" coin?
You are describing “hit frequency" and "volatility". Hit frequency is the average percentage of winning spins taken from the total number of spins, or how often (on average) a player will get a win. Volatility is a term used to assess the risk of losing a bet and refers to the tendency of a slot to reward a player. A highly volatile game may go for long periods of time without rewarding the player only for a spin to offer a significant payout. The slot in your example is a highly volatile slot, like a progressive jackpot.

Yes, the return for those 1 000 001 spins are 100% rtp.
What would you say the rtp is for the spins if not 100%?
Yes and yes. 100%

1 million spins each returned 0x stake -> 0/1000000 -> 0% rtp
1 spin returned 2x stake -> 2/1 -> 200% rtp
1000001 spins in total returned 2x stake-> 2/1000001 -> 0.0001999998%

It might very well be that i am just mathematically challenged, but i can´t wrap my head around the thought that a game paying out twice your bet once in over a million spins can be running at 100% rtp...
Like @Kroffe so aptly explained above, “RTP” is the total percentage of all money that a casino game pays out as winnings to players over time. The % of all money paid out is lower than the total amount that goes in. This is how casinos make their money. The slot doesn't care who it pays out to as long as the set rate at which a slot game pays out is met. RTP doesn't tell you how often a player is likely to win. Two games can both have an RTP of say 96% but one might pay out often in smaller amounts, whereas the other pays out less frequently but with huge wins. Think Bloodsuckers II vs. Bonanza.

There is no fairness in slot machine wins. Ask any Bonanza player. :cool:
 

Tiktak30

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A highly volatile game may go for long periods of time without rewarding the player only for a spin to offer a significant payout
The slot in my example paid out 2x stake once - not exactly a significant payout in my book....

The slot doesn't care who it pays out to as long as the set rate at which a slot game pays out is met.
Totally agree here. But the "set rate" can´t / shouldn´t be based on total money amount but on % of betsize paid out, otherwise the result of a spin would have to take into account prior spins which would mean it isn´t random.
 
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