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RTP of Accredited Casinos

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Nifty29, Mar 26, 2012.


Which of the following do you think Accredited Casinos should be required to provide?

  1. Theoretical RTP settings

    15 vote(s)
  2. Theoretical RTP settings + Current Actual RTP

    67 vote(s)
  3. Current Actual RTP ONLY

    21 vote(s)
  4. None of the above/The information is not important to me

    7 vote(s)
    Mar 26, 2012
  1. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Hi Gang

    I've been reading some threads lately regarding RTP in reference to Accredited Casinos, and other casinos as well.

    I have formed the opinion that it would be reasonable for Bryan to require Accred Casinos to publish their game RTP's on a regular basis, and perhaps the theoretical RTP along with them. Of course, it is up to Bryan whether he wants to do this, but I thought it would be a useful exercise to find out what the membership feels about the importance of RTP settings and ongoing measurements of RTP over set periods.

    I know that some casinos provide this on their website, and some casinos have told Bryan what their RTP settings are, but I feel it would be a very helpful tool for players, and a great display of integrity and transparency to inspire even more confidence in choosing Accredited Casinos over other operators.

    Personally, I think if Accred Casino A has an RTP setting of 91%, and the Accred Casino B has 95%, then players should know about it....and those casinos with higher RTPs would then reap the rewards of having better payouts in comparison to others. In fact, some kind of RTP category could be created where higher settings are recognized with a different "class" or sub-category, similar to the one I suggested for payout speeds. Each Accred Casino could have a Gold, Silver, or Bronze star next to their listing under two new columns of "Payout Speed" and "RTP" to allow potential players to make informed choices. E.G. Gold could be RTP 96+, Silver 93-95 and Bronze <92 or something similar. It might also create a more competitive atmosphere i,e, lower RTP operators could increase their settings to gain a higher rating etc, which is win-win - more players means more profits, and the increase in RTP would more be more than covered by the increase in turnover (assuming their marketing of such is sound)

    Anyway, submit your vote and let's see what pans out.
    24 people like this.
  2. Mar 26, 2012
  3. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Excellent suggestion Nifty. Otherwise its probably guesswork based on the playing experience of a few players which only constitute a very small percentage of the casino's customer base.
    1 person likes this.
  4. Mar 26, 2012
  5. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Bexhill on sea, England
    I agree, this is an excellent suggestion! :thumbsup:

    One thing you didn't say (or at least, it wasn't 100% clear) is that we want to see the RTP of each and every game separately.
    i.e. The casino saying "our slots have a theoretical RTP of 95%" is just not good enough IMO - we want to see the RTP of EACH slot.

    IGT, NetEnt and Rival (and maybe some others?) already do this - it's about time ALL casinos published these figures.

    5 people like this.
  6. Mar 26, 2012
  7. Surasanji

    Surasanji Experienced Member

    Call-center customer support
    I agree.

    The transparency involved would really go a long way into helping players feel safer at the casinos.

    And its not as if the RTP will let players know variance or any of the other elements of the payout- It'll just give them something to shoot for. :p

    I see this as a win-win for everyone. Players who feel safer depositing will deposit more, and the Casinos win because players who feel safer will deposit more. (This message brought to you by the Redundancy Council on Redundancy.)
  8. Mar 26, 2012
  9. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Web Dev.
    I agree but it won't be that easy. I have had lots of conversations about RTP with different casinos over the past 2 or 3 years and there are varying reasons why this would be tricky. In some cases it appears the casinos don't even know the game RTP's themselves! Some are happy to publish of course, some have no choice, others think it will be counter-productive, some think it will lead to issues on forums if they publish, some see land-based as setting a precedent. I'd love to see them published too but the bottom line is it would has to come from the software provider like IGT do in their paytables to be credible, accurate and maintained effectively.

    In addition, if it came any other way, there would need to be some sort of control process in place as they can change. On top of that, you have the trust issue that you are being told the right percentage. I recently saw a software manufacturer game PR sheet that had a vastly different RTP to that shown on the game itself for example (the game was right incidentally).
    1 person likes this.
  10. Mar 27, 2012
  11. threescatters

    threescatters Dormant account PABnonaccred

    Nifty, I like your idea very much.

    I would also suggest that simply publishing "ranges" on each slot is not allowed as well, as is happening at IGT/wagerworks these days.

    For example, publishing that "This slot has an RTP in the range of 92-95%" is pretty useless imo, might as well just not publish it.

    I very very much like the way virgin casino just publishes the exact RTP for everything. Completely open and you have to respect them for that.
  12. Mar 27, 2012
  13. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Bexhill on sea, England
    At which casino(s) have you seen that? :eek2:

  14. Mar 27, 2012
  15. threescatters

    threescatters Dormant account PABnonaccred

    kerching siberian storm for one, and a lot of new wagerworks slots (the figures are not 92-95 but something similar)

    edit : KK i am going to pm you so we dont derail the thread. I think Niftys idea is a good one and want to focus on that
    1 person likes this.
  16. Mar 27, 2012
  17. rockycatt

    rockycatt meistercatt

    in a word yes
  18. Mar 27, 2012
  19. IanO

    IanO Regular Human

    Marketing and promotions
    Nice idea Nifty, but like Simmo said there are a number of roadblocks. One not mentioned yet is old info. I grabbed an old RTP page from another casino to illustrate my point.

    Lets say you were using these sheets to decide what to play and where... and your game was Pai Gow Poker. At the start of December you check and see that the recent RTP at this casino was 98.2%. Woo-Hoo and away you go. At the end of December you're one of the players who made up the 92.25% RTP for that month... not what you were expecting... so you switch to another casino... only from their RTP to drop and the one you left to go up again. Unless the info is given real time (never gonna happen imo) then it's still a bit of a gamble.

    Then there is verifying the numbers. I guess everyone would have to use central monitoring services which some operators understandably dont want to pay for. I'm also not sure I agree that this would make players feel any safer. I think you get that by processing withdrawals and dealing with any issues that arise quickly and effectively.

    Yet another poll I shall be watching with interest :)

    View attachment 32196
  20. Mar 27, 2012
  21. slotplayer

    slotplayer Meister Member webmeister

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  22. Mar 28, 2012
  23. NordicBet

    NordicBet Dormant account

    Casino Manager
    Great post Nifty and I am interested to see the final results to the poll. :thumbsup:

    I just wanted to make a couple comments and clarify something. Where you mentioned the Theoretical RTP settings I assume that this is regarding sites that use software where the RTP can be adjusted as with Netent, Microgaming and Playtech the theoretical RTP cannot be adjusted.

    With regards to the Theoretical RTP for each game, at Nordicbet when you open a game and then click "Game Rules" a new page will open with game information and the Theoretical RTP for that game.

    As a casino manager I have no issues at all with displaying the current actual RTP for the entire casino and wanted to know if this was interesting for anyone. Basically I would have a widget developed that would show the RTP for the previous day and also month to date which we would update on a daily basis.


    6 people like this.
  24. Mar 28, 2012
  25. conker

    conker Senior Member CAG MM webmeister

    I noticed that the theoretical RTP was a popular choice in the poll so far, but that seems to me as it could potentially be open to abuse if it was made a standard. Is the theoretical RTP measured on an average figure taken from previous measurements or is it a calculation presented by the software developer. Either way, I think actual RTP is the only true representation if it is going to be done fairly.
    1 person likes this.
  26. Mar 28, 2012
  27. threescatters

    threescatters Dormant account PABnonaccred

    The "actual" RTP (as in what % has actually been paid back recently) is only an illusion. Displaying this will only fuel conspiracy and rigged theorists (which nifty hates just as much as me!). The theoritical RTP (as long as it is the truth and is not a lie) is all that matters.

    This should be displayed in the paytables of all games as standard. I like to play slots but I like a house edge of 6% max on the slots I play. Displaying this as standard on all software providers would help me choose where to spend my money wisely. I am willing to give the casino my money here, all I am asking in return is that they let me make an informed decision. It will only increase my trust in them and help build the relationahip.
    3 people like this.
  28. Mar 28, 2012
  29. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom
    Theoretical RTP is the figure needed, as this is based on a mathematical calculation of all possible outcomes over an infinite number of spins. Actual RTP can vary from month to month, and cannot be used to predict the future, or indeed relied upon when deciding where to play, or where to close an account. Over the long term, actual RTP will move ever closer to the theoretical RTP, so if only one figure is to be published, it should be the theoretical RTP. The actual RTP is more of an audit tool, and provided the dataset is big enough, it can be used to boost trust that the theoretical figure is correct. RTP to one decimal place is enough.

    Operators that find excuses for keeping this information hidden only make themselves look a little "dodgy", as the figures are not hidden in the interests of players, but so that the casino can manipulate the figures it DOES publish, such as a claim that "we offer more and bigger bonuses than any other casino". If a casino turns the RTP right down, it can afford to offer such big bonuses, yet still make a profit, whereas other operators stuck with 95% RTP slots set in stone have no way to compete on a level playing field, as if they offered big bonuses on the same terms, the higher RTP would ensure they went bust.

    One reason operators don't want it known that they use a low RTP setting is that players can find out that the "good" promotional offer is actually a very "bad" one, probably far worse than a more modest offering from a casino which offers games with a higher RTP.

    Experienced players know which softwares can be adjusted, and that they cannot necessarily be trusted to offer the same RTP between different operators.

    Microgaming was thoroughly investigated a while back by the player community, and this only provided hard evidence that the slots really WERE on around 95%, and were the same wherever you played. The same cannot be said of RTG, Rival, nor Top Game it seems.
    4 people like this.
  30. Mar 28, 2012
  31. Seventh777

    Seventh777 RIP Roy

    Builder, mainly renovations.
    Planet Tharg, dark side, where nothing grows.
    Great post m8ty :thumbsup:, I for one would like to see the theoretical RTP on display and see how much it affects the likes of the mega MGS Jackpot slots like TSII/IR etc, imho I would much prefer these jackpots to be lowered considerably to around x2000 bet size in normal play and obviously higher for when in feature rounds, I want that added buzz of knowing I have an outside chance of winning a jackpot when playing a slot, and not, as in 99.99% of the time when hitting a feature like wild storm/desire thinking to yourself "What a fcking waste of time this will be", nearly six years of playing online and I still have yet to hit a true slot jackpot :mad:.

    Slots like TSII/IR/GJ etc have huge potential for hitting monster wins in feature rounds (not just the jackpot features), I have yet to hit anywhere near the potential that say Loki`s/Sarah`s feature has to offer, now when they work out the actual RTP for these slots all these factors must be taken into consideration, bearing in mind these hits are rarer than rocking horse shit I would definitely be interested in how the actual RTP is affected by this!!.
  32. Mar 28, 2012
  33. bsilva028

    bsilva028 Banned : multi-account fraudster PABnoaccred PABaccred

    i agree
  34. Mar 28, 2012
  35. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Kobold Geomancer
    Theoretical RTP for me.

    I can think of no valid reason why the theoretical RTP of each and every game isn't included on the paytable. It's certainly possible - (IGT do it, Jackpot Party do it, Jackpot Party even make clear the distinction between the payout on the the base game (around 92%) and what is given over to the progressives (3%)) - so why don't all the casinos do it?

    Personally speaking the lack of a game-per-game RTP on the Microgaming slots is the main reason I often defect to one of the casinos that offer the IGT slots, as I can always see the RTP right there in the paytable. (Although IGT's recent trend of stating the RTP as a range is both meaningless and downright insulting, and I don't much care for the 'depends on the player always making the right choices' disclaimer either, as such I always choose slots that have no player choices.)

    The 'one size fits all' RTP figure that we're given for Microgaming slots is insufficient information IMO. Do the RTPs of the slots vary? Do some slots have higher RTPs than others? Will they up the RTP on new games to make them more attractive to players and lower the RTP of older games to compensate?

    As a very simple example when Immortal Romance was released they could have given that an RTP of 98% and dropped Thunderstruck II down to 92% - the overall RTP for those two games is still 95%. Multiply that sort of behaviour across the full suite of Microgaming slots and it's easy to achieve an overall RTP of 95% but with wide variances across different games.
    1 person likes this.
  36. Mar 29, 2012
  37. rainmaker

    rainmaker I'm not a penguin CAG webmeister


    I also think that theoretical RTP is what players need to know. Current actual RTP is nice to know, but I do not except that casinos have this information available for their customers. I also do not see this information as necessary.

    As Ben from Nordicbet said, operators who use reputable suppliers like Playtech, Net Entertainment or Microgaming have no opportunity to change or adjust theoretical RTP. So I think that Nifty`s gold/silver/bronze-suggestion is only relevant for operators who use software where they actually have the opportunity to adjust or choose RTP settings.

    Theoretical RTP is what players want because it shows what kind of a RTP games are designed to achieve in a long term perspective. As mentioned in the thread, Net Entertainment and IGT already have this information available for each game. I also believe that this information should be available from all suppliers. Information leads to knowledge, and it is good to know. But some suppliers still don`t get this.

    I would also like to add that players should not be too focused on RTP. Games with a RTP of 98% may still kill you every single time you play if they are designed as high variance games. As discussed on this forum before, players would most likely have a better playing experience if they knew more about volatility and focused a bit less on RTP.
  38. Mar 31, 2012
  39. slafs

    slafs Dormant account

    Professional computer geek
    Just logged in to Desert Nights and suddenly remembered this thread when I got a message from them. ;)

    174% RTP on their Hockey Hero slot! That would indeed be a "hot slot". No mention of what time it was measured over though (I'm assuming it's not the RTP delivered by RTG).

    Sounds a bit like misleading info to me, maybe there should be some guidance on it in the rules for an accredited CM casino?

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 31, 2012
    3 people like this.

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