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RTP - Here's How It Affect Your Play.

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by dunover, Mar 31, 2013.

    Mar 31, 2013
  1. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    OK, I have made a table up for 2 RTP's, one at 96% and one at 92%.
    Both are based on a deposit of £50 with 100% bonus (£100) or a straight £100 deposit. Whichever you prefer. You start with 100 and play 1.00 per spin in each case. There is NO variance; each spin returns it's RTP i.e. each play you bet 1.00 and get say 0.96 back. (We've all seen RTG slots:D:D)
    This is purely to demonstrate the big exponential effects a lower RTP setting can have on gametime and chances of making a WR. Obviously this is exactly how it works out for the casino over a prolonged period of time and zillions of spins on any particular slot. It's quite eye-opening!

    @96% xxxxxxxxxxx @92%

    £100 start - 100 spins... £100 start - 100 spins...
    £100.0 - £96.00 96 spins. £100.0 - £92.00 92 spins
    £96.00 - £92.16 92 spins. £92.00 - £84.64 84 spins
    £92.16 - £88.47 88 spins. £84.64 - £77.87 78 spins
    £88.47 - £84.00 84 spins. £77.87 - £71.64 71 spins
    £84.84 - £80.64 81 spins. £71.64 - £65.91 66 spins
    £80.64 - £77.41 77 spins. £65.91 - £60.64 60 spins
    £77.41 - £74.31 74 spins. £60.64 - £55.79 56 spins
    £74.31 - £71.33 71 spins. £55.79 - £51.33 51 spins
    £71.33 - £68.47 68 spins. £51.33 - £47.22 47 spins
    £68.47 - £65.83 66 spins. £47.22 - £43.44 43 spins
    £65.83 - £63.21 63 spins. £43.44 - £39.96 40 spins
    £63.21 - £60.68 61 spins. £39.96 - £36.77 37 spins
    £60.68 - £58.25 58 spins. £36.77 - £33.83 34 spins
    £58.25 - £55.92 56 spins. £33.83 - £31.12 31 spins
    £55.92 - £53.68 54 spins. £31.12 - £28.63 29 spins
    £53.68 - £51.53 52 spins. £28.63 - £26.34 26 spins
    £51.53 - £49.46 49 spins. £26.34 - £24.23 24 spins
    £49.46 - £47.48 47 spins. £24.23 - £22.29 22 spins
    £47.48 - £45.58 46 spins. £22.29 - £20.51 21 spins
    £45.58 - £43.75 44 spins. £20.51 - £18.87 19 spins
    £43.75 - £42.00 42 spins. £18.87 - £17.36 17 spins
    £42.00 - £40.32 40 spins. £17.36 - £15.97 16 spins
    £40.32 - £38.70 39 spins. £15.97 - £14.69 14 spins
    £38.70 - £37.15 37 spins. £14.69 - £13.51 13 spins
    £37.15 - £35.66 36 spins. £13.51 - £12.43 12 spins
    £35.66 - £34.23 34 spins. £12.43 - £11.44 11 spins
    £34.23 - £32.86 33 spins. £11.44 - £10.52 11 spins
    £32.86 - £31.54 31 spins. £10.52 - £09.67 10 spins
    £31.54 - £30.27 30 spins. £09.67 - £08.90 09 spins
    £30.27 - £29.05 29 spins. £08.90 - £08.19 08 spins
    £29.05 - £27.88 28 spins. £08.19 - £07.53 07 spins
    £27.88 - £26.76 27 spins. £07.53 - £06.93 07 spins
    £26.76 - £25.69 25 spins. £06.93 - £06.38 06 spins
    £25.69 - £24.66 24 spins. £06.38 - £05.87 06 spins
    £24.66 - £23.67 23 spins. £05.87 - £05.40 05 spins
    £23.67 - £22.72 23 spins. £05.40 - £05.00 05 spins
    £22.72 - £21.81 22 spins. £05.00 - £04.60 04 spins
    £21.81 - £20.93 21 spins. £04.60 - £04.23 04 spins
    £20.93 - £20.09 20 spins. £04.23 - £03.89 03 spins
    £20.09 - £19.29 19 spins. £03.89 - £03.58 03 spins
    £19.28 - £18.51 18 spins. £03.58 - £03.29 03 spins
    £18.51 - £17.76 18 spins. £03.29 - £03.03 03 spins
    £17.76 - £17.05 17 spins. £03.03 - £02.79 02 spins
    £17.05 - £16.37 16 spins. £02.79 - £02.57 02 spins
    £16.37 - £15.71 16 spins. £02.57 - £02.36 02 spins
    £15.71 - £15.08 15 spins. £02.36 - £02.17 02 spins
    £15.08 - £14.48 14 spins. £02.17 - £02.00 02 spins
    £14.48 - £13.90 14 spins. £02.00 - £01.84 01 spins
    £13.90 - £13.34 13 spins. £01.84 - £01.69 01 spin
    £13.34 - £12.81 13 spins. £01.69 - £01.55 01 spin
    £12.81 - £12.30 12 spins. £01.55 - £01.43 01 spin
    £12.30 - £11.80 12 spins. £01.43 - £01.32 01 spin
    £11.80 - £11.32 11 spins. £01.32 - £01.21 01 spin
    £11.32 - £10.87 11 spins. £01.21 - £01.11 01 spin
    £10.87 - £10.43 10 spins. £01.11 - £01.02 01 spin
    £10.43 - £10.01 10 spins. £01.02 - £0.94 BUST OUT xxxxxxx 1226 spins
    £10.01 - £09.61 09 spins.
    £09.61 - £09.23 09 spins.
    £09.23 - £08.86 08 spins.
    £08.86 - £08.50 08 spins.
    £08.50 - £08.16 08 spins.
    £08.16 - £07.83 07 spins.
    £07.83 - £07.51 07 spins.
    £07.51 - £07.20 07 spins.
    £07.20 - £06.91 06 spins.
    £06.91 - £06.63 06 spins.
    £06.63 - £06.36 06 spins.
    £06.36 - £06.10 06 spins.
    £06.10 - £05.85 05 spins.
    £05.85 - £05.61 05 spins.
    £05.61 - £05.39 05 spins.
    £05.39 - £05.17 05 spins.
    £05.17 - £04.96 04 spins
    £04.96 - £04.76 04 spins.
    £04.96 - £04.57 04 spins.
    £04.57 - £04.39 04 spins.
    £04.38 - £04.21 04 spins.
    £04.21 - £04.04 04 spins.
    £04.04 - £03.87 03 spins.
    £03.87 - £03.71 03 spins
    £03.71 - £03.56 03 spins.
    £03.56 - £03.41 03 spins.
    £03.41 - £03.27 03 spins
    £03.27 - £03.14 03 spins.
    £03.14 - £03.01 03 spins.
    £03.01 - £02.89 02 spins
    £02.89 - £02.77 02 spins
    £02.77 - £02.66 02 spins.
    £02.66 - £02.55 02 spins.
    £02.55 - £02.45 02 spins.
    £02.45 - £02.35 02 spins
    £02.35 - £02.26 02 spins.
    £02.26 - £02.17 02 spins
    £02.17 - £02.08 02 spins.
    £02.08 - £02.00 02 spins.
    £02.00 - £01.92 01 spins.
    £01.92 - £01.84 01 spin
    £01.84 - £01.77 01 spin
    £01.77 - £01.70 01 spin
    £01.70 - £01.63 01 spin
    £01.63 - £01.56 01 spin
    £01.56 - £01.50 01 spin
    £01.50 - £01.44 01 spin
    £01.44 - £01.38 01 spin
    £01.38 - £01.32 01 spin
    £01.32 - £01.27 01 spin
    £01.27 - £01.22 01 spin
    £01.22 - £01.17 01 spin.
    £01.17 - £01.12 01 spin.
    £01.12 - £01.07 01 spin
    £01.07 - £01.03 01 spin.
    £01.03 - £00.99 BUST OUT xxxxxxxx 2418 spins.


    IN OTHER WORDS JUST A 4% REDUCTION IN RTP FROM 96-92 MEANS YOU REDUCE GAME ENDURANCE TO 50.7% OF THE 96% FIGURE.
    This explains why Chopley and others have noticed how poor JPP is compared to playing WMS at NordicBet on 4% higher RTP's. It also demonstrates that the JPP
    10xD+B WR is not as good as it sounds. Statistically you are far more likely to hit WR on a Microgaming casino with a 30xBonus WR at 96% RTP than the 10xD+B WR at JPP on 92% RTP.
    I've done a bit of hard work here, so if any other number crunchers can work out the % chances of hitting various multiple WR's on these 2 demonstrations, then feel free!

    It also shows how slots on <90% are so terrible compared to online 96'ers. This includes pub/club slots/pokies and AWP's which can be as low as 72% but usually in the 80's and mechanical casino slots on <92%. Obviously I mention AWP's in the context which doesn't include forcers/humptiers/sharking :D :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
    20 people like this.
  2. Mar 31, 2013
  3. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    UK
    I think a lot of folks don't appreciate what a massive difference small jumps in RTP can make once you get up into the 90s, particularly when it comes to grinding out a WR.

    I remember when I first posted about the 1777% bonus at Tropica here at CM and the basic response was along the lines of 'you may as well set fire to your money'.

    Thing is, once I realised they had a slot contributing 100% to the WR at a 98-99% RTP (with perfect skill game strategy) it became pretty much a dead cert that I'd be able to beat it. The numbers on that were pretty illuminating once you worked them out:

    Here's a copy and paste of a post I made at the time, look at the massive difference in expected wagering with just a few extra percent on the overall RTP.

    ------------

     
    5 people like this.
  4. Mar 31, 2013
  5. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Indeed, the infamous Tropica episode.. Like myself and others you have an instinct for value and chance and base your deposits on such. My chart is a visual representation on just how dramatic as you say, the change in RTP can be, a careless little figure chucked in by a casino 'changed from 96.1 to 95' for example can have a big difference to gameplay. It also shows how most of us who ever played AWP's could tell immediately if anything had changed on them.
    My example shows that at 1k spins per hour you would get 1 hour 13 minutes at 92% for your money, and 2 hours 25 minutes at 96%. On average.
     
  6. Mar 31, 2013
  7. akrus88

    akrus88 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Finland
    " 10xD+B WR at JPP on 92% RTP"

    I think monthly match is only 10xB. And you can not just forgot the progressives at JPP. Allthough I understand what you ment. If you have a balance of 200£, that 4% plus on the RTP is much better then those random progressives.

    Allso thanks for a really good and intresting post!
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Mar 31, 2013
  9. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    UK
    akrus is correct dunover, it's 10xB on the regular bonuses at Jackpot Party, the SUB is 20xB. None of their bonuses are D+B.

    The Jackpot Party monthly match is EV+ even on a 92% return (although not by much), factor in the JPP (which you do have to do in all fairness), then at 95% RTP it's very EV+.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Mar 31, 2013
  11. nisosbar

    nisosbar Ueber Meister PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Other
    Location:
    Right here
    Thanks, that's a fascinating chart. :cheers:
     
  12. Mar 31, 2013
  13. JGslots

    JGslots Senior Member PABinit webmeister

    Location:
    Wirral, UK
    Its just a shame that they have gone a little quiet on their bonus offers of late. I agree with the OP that RTP does mean a lot, Its common sense.

    88% Reel King Potty £2 Stake
    96% Online Offering Multi-Stake

    Do you think that land based machine will have to up their game and bring back punters with games set to 95%? i doubt it very much LOL.
     
  14. Mar 31, 2013
  15. aceking123

    aceking123 Ueber Meister CAG PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    chippy
    Location:
    uk
    hello playwithrob ! its binitwinit )
     
  16. Mar 31, 2013
  17. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    OK, sorry JPP afficionados, that's my bad. In that case you should do it almost every time, merely 10xbonus. The other way to look at it, is that if the JPP bonus was comparable to others at 25-30X it would massively expose the frailties of having 92% RTP without progressives, because it would soon become apparent to JPP members how unlikely they were to hit WR unless getting a progressive. Now you know why JPP bonus is so low in WR!

    OK, sorry JPP, my scenario is correct ONLY on the SUB not monthly bonus. Thanks CHOPLEY/AKRUS.
    The figures still stand though; you would far more likely hit a MG 30xWR bonus at 96% than a 20xWR on a 92% casino. I'm not picking on JPP per se but using them as an example as their 92% is so distinct from many sites on 96-ish%.
     
  18. Mar 31, 2013
  19. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Interesting figures......I've seen something similar several times over the years.

    Trouble is......slots have variance.

    So, it can make telling the difference between 96% and 92% very difficult for the individual. Its very possible that if a player were given 1000 spins in a blind test on 5 versions of the same slot with TRTPs of 92,93,94,95 and 96 , and asked to label the correct versions based on play, they would rate the 92% above the 96%. The choices might be more accurate if they were given their ACTUAL RTP at the end before rating, as opposed to rating on "feeling".

    The reason I made the distinction between actual RTP and "feeling" is because the vast majority of the "they dropped the RTP!" Club (A subsidiary of the "Its rigged I tells ya!" Association) don't provide data, but rather their "feeling" over a given time period......most notably and almost exclusively following a big loss or bad streak.

    Some people think TRTP isn't important. I disagree. However, as we know, TRTP is not a guarantee for the player (it IS much more so for the casino) and I think this is where many players lose the plot. Added to this, these same players don't/can't/won't grasp that you can have a period of time where your RTP is ABOVE the TRTP and still blow your money and not cashout......and this is where that old chestnut....bankroll management...is the key. In fact, in regards to whether you're a winner at session's end is much more about that than TRTP, and at least as important when it comes to beating boni (VWM are you reading :D: )

    Good information to digest Dunover. Its also shows that it is variance that allows players to win, and that without it winning would be impossible.
     
    4 people like this.
  20. Mar 31, 2013
  21. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    Pardon me... but .... I'm going to ask a stupid question... I understand the basics of RTP (I've always heard it as Payout Percentage except here in meisterland), but playing at RTGs has me wondering....

    I understand the stated calculated RTP is for the GAME/casino over the long term. As I understand it, the random JP at RTGs is included (as it should be) in that calculation. So ... am I right in thinking that many, many players (like myself) who have played for years, but never hit an RTG random jackpot will come close to seeing the stated casino/game RTP in our personal payout percentages?
     
  22. Mar 31, 2013
  23. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    UK
    Where there is a contribution to a progressive jackpot or jackpots, if you never hit those progressives, then yes, you are basically playing the 'base games' at their own RTP minus the progressive contribution.

    Jackpot Party works on the same principle as RTG, 92% on the base games, and 3% over to the Jackpot Party Progressives - if you don't hit the progressives then you're effectively chucking 3% RTP into the bin. (Not sure what the exact contribution is on RTG though.)

    Progressives are great when you hit them, but on a long dry spell when you don't, the lower effective RTP on the base game can really start to sting.
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Mar 31, 2013
  25. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    I think we need to add to that that if the progressive contribution is not specifically stated like it is at JPP the remaining RTP may be affected by how many players and how much is being staked on the slots. JPP is a relatively small site, but I would imagine some of the US-facing RTG casinos have a very large player base and maybe only a small fraction% is going into the random JP pool, and quite slowly at that.
     
  26. Mar 31, 2013
  27. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    That what I was thinking... it's just like playing progressives... and that the only type slots they have. The payout percentage for those of us who never hit an RTG jackpot cannot be good at all.
     
  28. Mar 31, 2013
  29. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    The thing is we don't know that do we? We cannot say for sure. We can at JPP as they tell us the base games are basically crap for RTP whereas RTG tell us nothing. It's possible, in fact I'd say highly likely, that RTG's RTP sub-progressive is higher than JPP's 92%. All depends on how frequently they pay. They are very frequent on JPP compared to RTG sites, so I'd suggest residual RTP is higher at RTG sites. IMO:)
     
  30. Mar 31, 2013
  31. ChopleyIOM

    ChopleyIOM Hearthstone Addict webby

    Occupation:
    Kobold Geomancer
    Location:
    UK
    Don't forget there are three different maths models for RTG slots, and good luck working out which one you're playing....

    I couldn't even get a straight answer out of Slotocash here on CM, and they're accredited.
     
  32. Mar 31, 2013
  33. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Well, I won't speculate any more in that case. Let it suffice to say, I'd wager (all other things being equal) that RTG's residual RTP is on average slightly higher. I'll never know for sure.
     
  34. Mar 31, 2013
  35. JGslots

    JGslots Senior Member PABinit webmeister

    Location:
    Wirral, UK
    hey bud :) hope the wins are still rolling in hehe
     
  36. Mar 31, 2013
  37. Balthazar

    Balthazar The Governor

    Occupation:
    Leader
    Location:
    Woodbury
    There are clues in the software though and the easiest way to spot the RTP is the Keno pay table. As they come in 3 specific "packages" (92.5%, 95% and 97.5% IIRC), it would be really easy to determine which casino is running which model as soon as you can find 3 different Keno pay tables.

    I don't play RTG anymore but if someone has a bunch of RTG's already installed on their computer, that would be awesome to check them and to share the findings.
     
  38. Mar 31, 2013
  39. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    RTG random jackpots account for ~1.5% of TRTP.

    The information was provided here by Dogboy a while back.

    So Mousey.....the answer is that if you don't hit a RJ then your chances of reaching the TRTP are most certainly reduced.
     
    2 people like this.

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