RTP- Casino, game or Software?

chris87

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UK
I think this has been mentioned before, but over my years of using on line casinos there's certainly a pattern to suggest that RTP % trends should really be calculated by software provider rather than by game and casino. For example I've recently been playing IR and Playboy frequently over about 5 casinos. I was getting to a stage whereby I was about to give up and switch back to IGT given my cumulative loss across the casinos overall, as I guess you'd expect over time, although I was getting a few winners. My usual bet is £1.50 per spin.

Then I hit big on Playboy on one of the casinos, winning over £2000 on the running wilds feature, which I thought prudent to withdraw! My experience tells me that I'd be 99.9% likely to lose continuing to bet with the casino I'd won at, so I concentrated on the others. However, ever since this win I cannot win a bean on MG games at any casino. I haven't triggered a feature since and at one point I had over 65 spins at £1.50 per bet which only generated one winning spin which was 75p! Interestingly (and totally my fault of course) I'm nearly £2000 down across the other casinos overall, over the few days since I had the win.

The change in play on MG games since I had the win is very significant and leads me to believe that the RTP "levelling" works by player across casinos by software provider rather than by game by casino. I only subscribe to the random number generator that casinos quote in as much as the "number" generated is predetermined as a win or loss to level the RTP, hence are not random in the true sense of the word.
 

gagamel

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Every spin is random. The slot don`t know your RTP.
A impressive example:
I play a lot of DoA. The first 15000 spins my RTG was about 130%. Now I played 100000 spins, my RTG is 103%. I believe 100000 spins more my RTP is nearly the same as the TRTP.

Betatcasino:
I started with 75% RTP, now after some gaming my RTP is 90.4%. And here the same, the longer I play a game the more I reach the TRTP.
 

dunover

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I think this has been mentioned before, but over my years of using on line casinos there's certainly a pattern to suggest that RTP % trends should really be calculated by software provider rather than by game and casino. For example I've recently been playing IR and Playboy frequently over about 5 casinos. I was getting to a stage whereby I was about to give up and switch back to IGT given my cumulative loss across the casinos overall, as I guess you'd expect over time, although I was getting a few winners. My usual bet is £1.50 per spin.

Then I hit big on Playboy on one of the casinos, winning over £2000 on the running wilds feature, which I thought prudent to withdraw! My experience tells me that I'd be 99.9% likely to lose continuing to bet with the casino I'd won at, so I concentrated on the others. However, ever since this win I cannot win a bean on MG games at any casino. I haven't triggered a feature since and at one point I had over 65 spins at £1.50 per bet which only generated one winning spin which was 75p! Interestingly (and totally my fault of course) I'm nearly £2000 down across the other casinos overall, over the few days since I had the win.

The change in play on MG games since I had the win is very significant and leads me to believe that the RTP "levelling" works by player across casinos by software provider rather than by game by casino. I only subscribe to the random number generator that casinos quote in as much as the "number" generated is predetermined as a win or loss to level the RTP, hence are not random in the true sense of the word.

Often players have this view as a result of dramatic peaks in troughs in their play, especially on high-variance games. Now, whether this RTP is casino-specific or the game generally wherever you play it, I don't really know. MG games are fixed in TRTP and cannot be varied from site-to-site, which suggests you may be correct as far as they go insomuch as you have one central MG RN pool which is accessed from every site that has that MG game., i.e. all players are using it.

Whether you play flash or download is irrelevant, that is merely the game portal to the RN pool for that game. Presumably all MG games have a separate pool on MG central servers and would work the same except for AWP's. I can't be sure but it makes sense. This would ensure over time all players (if they had enough spins) would get the TRTP but in the short term explains the peaks and troughs, like you have experienced. All I will say for sure is that the outcomes are random and not predetermined.
 

chris87

Senior Member
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Jul 2, 2013
Location
UK
I don't specifically disagree with the comments made so far. However, a truly random outcome to each spin would mean that you could win or lose with every spin on going. This is patently not the case and given that a RTP % exists and in some cases advertised (some IGT slots) there must be a "levelling" process in some way to achieve RTP% or close to.

In my 5+ years of gambling on line I've found that if you have a good win at a particular casino, you then get a period of losses with that same casino, though the duration can vary, so I've switched casinos which seems to avoid this even on the same games. I've only recently (last few months) being playing MG slots and my experience is that this losses period extends across casinos running MG games which leads me to believe that dunover's thoughts are correct.
 

dunover

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Does this go for the features as well?

Apparently so, on some software like 3dice. It is possible that your TOTAL feature win is a fixed amount, and you just get a video of the events of MG software. Either way it makes little difference overall.
 

Nifty29

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I don't specifically disagree with the comments made so far. However, a truly random outcome to each spin would mean that you could win or lose with every spin on going. This is patently not the case and given that a RTP % exists and in some cases advertised (some IGT slots) there must be a "levelling" process in some way to achieve RTP% or close to.

In my 5+ years of gambling on line I've found that if you have a good win at a particular casino, you then get a period of losses with that same casino, though the duration can vary, so I've switched casinos which seems to avoid this even on the same games. I've only recently (last few months) being playing MG slots and my experience is that this losses period extends across casinos running MG games which leads me to believe that dunover's thoughts are correct.

No, a "leveling" process is not required.

The RTP is achieved by setting the reels and symbols up, and the law of large numbers. The number of spins an individual plays is a drop in the ocean compared to all players combined. When you consider most slots have millions of line combinations, it's not difficult to see why big jackpots are rare.

If you really think that what you say here really goes on, then you're playing a totally rigged game that cheats. I assume you will no longer be playing at all now?


You CAN win on ANY spin. I've no idea what you're getting at there.
 

chris87

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Jul 2, 2013
Location
UK
No, a "leveling" process is not required.

The RTP is achieved by setting the reels and symbols up, and the law of large numbers. The number of spins an individual plays is a drop in the ocean compared to all players combined. When you consider most slots have millions of line combinations, it's not difficult to see why big jackpots are rare.

If you really think that what you say here really goes on, then you're playing a totally rigged game that cheats. I assume you will no longer be playing at all now?


You CAN win on ANY spin. I've no idea what you're getting at there.

No, I don't think the games are rigged or cheat. I guess what you're saying is that the mechanics behind the games software are such that the ultimate outcome across all players across the board delivers the house edge (otherwise the providers would go out of business) but each individual spin's outcome is random. Hence some win and some (more likely) lose?

My post was a theory/question as a result of my playing experiences
 

mrmark21

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Nov 13, 2012
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australia
No, a "leveling" process is not required.

The RTP is achieved by setting the reels and symbols up, and the law of large numbers. The number of spins an individual plays is a drop in the ocean compared to all players combined. When you consider most slots have millions of line combinations, it's not difficult to see why big jackpots are rare.

If you really think that what you say here really goes on, then you're playing a totally rigged game that cheats. I assume you will no longer be playing at all now?


You CAN win on ANY spin. I've no idea what you're getting at there.

Well I stopped playing MG... Finally lol! But no I don't believe they cheat. What I'm more interested in seeing though is a copy of the certificate for Microgaming's RNG as I have noticed MG casinos seem to have the certificates for all the games except for the slots.

I believe the base game is random, I'm not so sure about the feature, I mean they aren't on land based slots.
 
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gagamel

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Just as an example:
A slot has 1 million possible combinations. There are more losing combinations than winning combinations, because a lot of combinations give you a bigger payout than 1x your bet. But the losing combinations can only take your bet. And we know that every spin is random.
Then it`s clear that you need luck to hit some winning spins in a short row to make a profit.
Without this luck you have a lot of non winning spins and just a few big hits and you lose your bankroll.
Not sarcastic, but it`s called game of luck, not game of mathematical explanation.
With or without luck, every gambler will lose in a shorter or longer term.
That`s the way gambling works:)
 

bpb

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The lengths people go to rationalize and explain why they pissed away money on a game with 5%+ house advantage is stunning.
 

gagamel

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The deal is that you have the chance to win not the guarantee to win. The house edge for slots is 2 to 10 precent, but you have with every spin the chance to win big. That`s the reason why we are playing.
 

zreb

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The house edge also isn't necessarily terrible on slot games. You bet a lot smaller on a slot game than you would on, say, a blackjack hand, with a chance to win more, so the house edge isn't really too bad.

For example, betting 50 cents a spin on a game with 3% house edge isn't too different than betting $5 a hand on a blackjack game with a .5% edge.

But like any casino game, if you keep playing long enough, the house will get the money in the end.
 

chris87

Senior Member
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Jul 2, 2013
Location
UK
Ok, I'll subscribe to the theory that the outcome to each spin is random driven by the random number generator.

However, I thought I'd do a (not very scientific!) test last night. I deposited £100 each at 2 casinos that offer IGT slots. At one casino I'm up on the house overall this month (over £500), at the other I'm down (again over £500) I played Monopoly Plus at both casinos at the same bet per spin (£1.50) At the casino (Grosvenor) that I'm up after about 100 spins I'd lost all my £100, at the one where I'm down (Getminted) I had a credit of £240 after the same number of spins, so I cashed out.

I know that it probably doesn't really prove anything, but it's interesting.

As an aside my bad run on all MG games continues since my biggish win!
 

gagamel

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If you want to compare the RTG in two casinos you need much more spins.
100 spins have no value. You need a minimum of 250000 spins, better 1 million spins to make a conclusion.
But I know the result after 1 million spins. The RTP will be rather the same, believe me or not.
 

quber

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Feb 25, 2004
Location
Europe
The Wizard explains how the RTP is calculated while keeping the machine fully random

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So if you wanted to tweak the RTP up or down slightly you would just add or remove a cherry from one of the first two reels, or change the payout amount for cherries but each spin would still be totally random.
 
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