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RTG shorting the pontoon game.

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by caruso, Mar 12, 2005.

    Mar 12, 2005
  1. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    I just read this on the Wizard Of Odds's site:

    What an extraordinary amount of control is afforded to the RTG licensees over the software. They can set decks, slot payouts, VP tables - and now apparently even payouts on such CRUCIAL hands on the table games.

    If this is the case it's VERY unacceptable. How long before they start to set the blackjack game at 5/6 without telling anyone? This alone QUADRUPLES the house edge on pontoon.

    If anyone has experience of this, please report which casinos are shorting the game. This could very, very easily go unnoticed, and it's a typical slimy RTG tactic. Pontoon is a popular game PRECISELY because of the tiny house edge.

    RTG should NOT allow their licensees this level of control over the software. This is extremely unacceptable.
     
  2. Mar 12, 2005
  3. largeeyes

    largeeyes Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    North America
    We all know I bitch at just about any possible change. But these casinos ARE casinos and thus can make the rules as they please. If you don't like them, don't play there. However, if the changes or if the rules are completely unavailable or are wrong, that's another story.
     
  4. Mar 13, 2005
  5. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    Well Playmontecarlo treats a player Blackjack V a dealer Blackjack as a loss which is outragous IMO and they re not even RTG :eek:
     
  6. Mar 13, 2005
  7. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    This is nothing whatsoever to do with casinos offering games up for gamblers' choice with given rules - please don't try to devalue this matter with these trivial remarks.

    This is about covertly changing the payoff on a CRUCIAL hand, with NO notification, and increasing the house edge by FOUR times - which puts a game whose major selling point is its low house edge on a parr with the WORST blackjack games out there and STILL with the huge variance of the game. All, I repeat, completey unannounced. If you aren't watching your payoffs closely you will have no idea this is happening.

    All players of RTG pontoon should take careful note when they split aces. If you receive a pontoon and it only pays even money not two to one, in the first place stop playing immediately, and in the second, please report who is doing this.
     
  8. Mar 13, 2005
  9. two_card

    two_card Dormant account

    Changes to the standard rules for a game should be very visible to the player.

    BJ tables in Las Vegas have the rules at each table.
    And they still play the 6/5 game.
     
  10. Mar 13, 2005
  11. universexf6

    universexf6 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Harakiri
    Location:
    A Country Called Full Of Geld
    Hmmmm.... so far I have played well at Inetbet at least and Geisha simply
    doesn't have Pontoon. I will post whenever I find.

    Anyway, thank you for great report Caruso. :notworthy
     
  12. Mar 13, 2005
  13. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, Caruso. It is up to the players to always check for themselves what current rules are being applied to a casino game. No Vegas casino that I know of will announce a change in their paytables, or even in their games - and if you suddenly get burnt by a bad paytable you have no one but yourself to blame.

    Do I like what they're doing? No. But it's still their right. Unless of course they say their Pontoon has true Vegas odds, or something of the sort, in which case they are being misleading.
     
  14. Mar 13, 2005
  15. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    No, why is this being so rampantly misunderstood?

    I'll try again: the allegation is NOT that the individual casinos in question have changed the payoff on split ace pontoons in the way a VP table is downgraded. A downgraded VP table is IMMEDIATELY VISIBLE. This is NOT in any way visible, announced, or anything else open. Assuming that the allegation is correct, what is happening is that the 2:1 payoff on all pontoon hands from split aces is being shorted by 50%, down to even money. In standard blackjack, naturals on split aces are NOT blackjack 3:2 payoffs, but in pontoon the payoff remains unchanged at 2:1. This has always been the case since the game's inception, and to make this "invisible" downgrade, changing a -0.17% game to a -0.62% without ANY information given to the player, is flagrantly deceiptful.

    I hope that's clear now.
     
  16. Mar 13, 2005
  17. virtualted

    virtualted No longer working for Virtual

    Location:
    Costa Rica
    I have to agree with Caruso here. We do not carry Pontoon, but what he is describing could happen in any game. To say it is a players responsibility to read the terms and conditions and rules of every game they play, EVERY time they enter the casino is wrong. We have lately had a bug in the system and everytime RTG makes a change the next time a player signs in it will say an upgrade was made. Most times those upgrades have nothing to do with the player whatsoever, and it would be a waste of time for the player to reread the entire rules again. Personally I would love to see a last updated/changed date put on every game in all casinos. Including slots and Video poker where pay tables do change, and Black jack where decks can change. These way if the date does not change than there is no reason to reread the rules, but if there is a change than the player has been notified.
    Ted
     
  18. Mar 13, 2005
  19. mary

    mary Dormant account

    On physical tables in my state every table has a little rules placard, so I know when I look at the table what I'm getting in terms of BJ rules.

    Every video poker machine has the paytable upfront and obvious.

    Online casinos should do something like that. Not make the player go into Help, and pick a topic, and blahbityblah blah...they usually do for the video poker.
     
  20. Mar 13, 2005
  21. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    To clarify amongst the confusion, I took a look at iNetbet in fun mode and am attaching a screenshot of what SHOULD happen; the bet was $100, I split aces and received a pontoon on the left one, which paid off correctly at 2:1. The allegation is that some casinos are covertly paying off pontoons on split aces at 1:1. It remains an allegation, but I can't see Michael Shakleford putting such things on his site if he didn't have reasonable confidence in his source.

    If anyone comes across an RTG that's shorting these payoffs, please post the fact.

    I would also like to know why RTG have even enabled this facility in the first place, and why they would endorse such covert operations as changing the payoffs without announcing the fact anywhere or to anyone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2005
  22. Mar 14, 2005
  23. emily_hanson

    emily_hanson Casino Representative

    Occupation:
    iNetBet Casino Manager
    Location:
    London
    Hello to everyone,

    Just a quick clarification. Thank you to Caruso for offering us as an example, however I would like to clarify that the option to adjust the payout on any 21 game or on any individual hand is not available in the RTG software.

    All the best.
    Regards
    Emily Hanson
    iNetBet
     
  24. Mar 14, 2005
  25. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    So Michael Shakleford is being led a merry dance?

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Under "Rule Variants" - scroll to the bottom of the text.
     
  26. Mar 14, 2005
  27. emily_hanson

    emily_hanson Casino Representative

    Occupation:
    iNetBet Casino Manager
    Location:
    London
    Caruso,

    I am sorry but I am not in a position to comment or offer an explanation as to Michael Shacklefords unconfirmed report, as I have no information relating to the source or indeed the validity of it.

    I can only confirm the operational restrains of our Casino software, which as far as I know will be the same throughout the complete RTG platform.

    We have mailed Michael for confirmation of the reported payout anomalies and for any input he has on this.

    I will of course keep everyone posted as to any developments.

    Regards
    Emily Hanson
    iNetBet
     
  28. Mar 14, 2005
  29. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    I must've misunderstood something, so: If there is a bug in the game, it most certainly needs to be fixed. If there is not an option in the RTG software, according to Emily, then in theory all control rests with RTG.

    VirtualTed said something about occasional bugs popping up with RTG, and this I personally will confirm, having discovered at least one of them (dealing seconds in multi-hand video poker).

    At this point I would point the finger at RTG... LOL...
     
  30. Mar 14, 2005
  31. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    :thumbsup: Good call VT.
     

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