RTG RTP Conspiracy (tin foil hat zone)

[PlexRep]

You know, this request could easily add to *my* tin foil hat.. if the screenshot is as innocent as stated in your post #40, why the fuzz then for making it disappear?

My guess would be it's the same as a jury pool being tainted by the media and the 'facts' they report. If something is unproven but fuels the conspiracy fire then it's more harm than use.

In essence: Hard facts - good. Disputable facts - dangerous.

 

[Casinomeister]

You know, this request could easily add to *my* tin foil hat.. if the screenshot is as innocent as stated in your post #40, why the fuzz then for making it disappear?

The screenshot was from an older version of the admin, but even so RTG (like any software provider) considers this privileged information that should only be accessed by the ones who are admins/operators.

 

[Glunn11]

I'm not a math wizard I guess and it is frustrating me that I cannot wrap my head around this. Can someone please explain PRECISELY how putting in DIFFERENT HE% could better help you determine the outcome or risk of a bonus offer?

This just makes no sense to me. If players are playing red dog and for some reason the actual house win was only 0.1% over the past on that game it still isn't a predication of FUTURE play or FUTURE HE%. The future estimate can only be made on the games actual HE%. It would create massive havoc to base outcomes on the variance of past play. You can only assume actual HE% and none of the explanations here have made sense to my small brain.

That box that said you could adjust the HE% just makes no sense at all to me. I am just not sure of the explanation.

One more question is why do only some casinos supposedly have this ability or the "super user" option?

The reasons that I think are used here are the following:

• Slot Games: Use the calculator if the RTP is set to a different setting.
• Table Games: Use the calculator to reflect the skills of the players and minor adjustments to deck composition.

For instance, the edge (per unit) of RTG red dog, 2 decks, is 2.61%. This assumes that players call on spreads of 6 or less and raise on 7 or more. However, not all players know optimal strategy, and casinos may be able to use different numbers of decks. Thus RTG's average return on red dog is different than the base edge. An RTG casino would, therefore, consider the skill level of all players who would take the bonus to determine the wagering requirements and the match percentage.

Even with that explanation, the tool still sounds relatively worthless to me, for what it's worth. The use of the term "Default House Edge" in the editable column, I think, is the main cause of the controversy. "Effective," "experimental," or even "actual" would much more accurately reflect the stated purpose of the form.

 

[greasemonkey]

The reasons that I think are used here are the following:

• Slot Games: Use the calculator if the RTP is set to a different setting.
• Table Games: Use the calculator to reflect the skills of the players and minor adjustments to deck composition.

For instance, the edge (per unit) of RTG red dog, 2 decks, is 2.61%. This assumes that players call on spreads of 6 or less and raise on 7 or more. However, not all players know optimal strategy, and casinos may be able to use different numbers of decks. Thus RTG's average return on red dog is different than the base edge. An RTG casino would, therefore, consider the skill level of all players who would take the bonus to determine the wagering requirements and the match percentage.

Even with that explanation, the tool still sounds relatively worthless to me, for what it's worth. The use of the term "Default House Edge" in the editable column, I think, is the main cause of the controversy. "Effective," "experimental," or even "actual" would much more accurately reflect the stated purpose of the form.

I see your point. The hard house edge that is not editable would reflect the number of decks etc. They would be unable to even muster a guess as to what the actual outcome MIGHT be IF the players are sharp or IF they are weak...etc. That would actually cause more problems. That is why so many questions and why so much doubt as to the explanation. The explanation isn't reasonable, especially for professional casino operators.

 

[Nifty29]

I see your point. The hard house edge that is not editable would reflect the number of decks etc. They would be unable to even muster a guess as to what the actual outcome MIGHT be IF the players are sharp or IF they are weak...etc. That would actually cause more problems. That is why so many questions and why so much doubt as to the explanation. The explanation isn't reasonable, especially for professional casino operators.

Which would explain why almost none of the operators use it, no?

The explanation has been provided, and all but a few don't accept it, so it's really just down to personal choice now - anyone who still believes its a ripoff tool like 4oak will surely never spend a dime at RTG again. After all, they would look ridiculous being KNOWINGLY taken for a ride.

Unless someone else has some more 'damning' screenshots, I don't see where else this thread has to go.

 

[greasemonkey]

Which would explain why almost none of the operators use it, no?

The explanation has been provided, and all but a few don't accept it, so it's really just down to personal choice now - anyone who still believes its a ripoff tool like 4oak will surely never spend a dime at RTG again. After all, they would look ridiculous being KNOWINGLY taken for a ride.

Unless someone else has some more 'damning' screenshots, I don't see where else this thread has to go.

Did anyone answer yet why only some casinos had the super user yet?

aside from that question I appreciate you trying to end the thread and stifle questions but please allow the people to ask questions. It's not hurting anything to be curious. Thanks

 

[lots0]

I have to agree with Nifty.
This thread has run it's course.

After all, how many times should you answer the same question....

Instead of asking the same thing over and over again.. why not just re-read the thread over and over.

Some folks are just not going to except the answer that has been given.
Oh well...

 

[DarkMage]

No one is forcing anyone to click on this thread. I find Greasemonkey making some good points about the card games, my thoughts echo his very closely.

 

[Nifty29]

Did anyone answer yet why only some casinos had the super user yet?

aside from that question I appreciate you trying to end the thread and stifle questions but please allow the people to ask questions. It's not hurting anything to be curious. Thanks

Presumably there are different package options and extra services like any other kind of licensing arrangement. Some may simply not have chosen to include that option - although if 4oak and others are right then as a licensee you woulbe crazy not to.....or if it is only available to a select few, then I would think there would be uproar from the other licensees who wouldn't be able to 'set their house edge to whatever they want' as per the conspiracy theory. Just another reason why it isn't what 4oak and others think it is.

I don't decide whether a thread ends or not. I was simply voicing my opinion....its hardly 'stifling' the debate when it is not in my purview to do so.

You cannot expect RTG to answer every one of your questions just because you're 'curious'. They have provided more information than I thought they would, and what they did provide was confirmed by at least one licensee.

How about you contact MG or Rival or Wagerworks and ask them to come to the forum and field questions about their backend management software and what it can and can't do? I won't hold my breath waiting for the thread to start.

Hence what I was alluding to....there won't be any more questions answered by rtg (imo) so any answers will be from others like you and me who don't have any first hand knowledge of RTG operations, which would be just conjecture. I personally dont see how more 'conspiracy theories' or questions thereto will be of any value to the thread.

IMO.

 

[chayton]

If you go back to where Bryan quoted whoever that RTG operator was who said they don't use it, it sounded like it was something that all the casinos actually include, it's just that most don't use it....? That's the way I read it anyhow, I may be wrong.

I didn't have the energy to go through all those other threads to find out who that quote came from, most of them I quit reading when the insults started so maybe I missed something important.

 

[Nate]

That box that said you could adjust the HE% just makes no sense at all to me. I am just not sure of the explanation.

One more question is why do only some casinos supposedly have this ability or the "super user" option?

Contrary to what i've read here (No Disrespect for the explanations provided)... it's actually quite simple.

Headings: Set the Values for excluded games, Playthrough and House Edge %.

The values will appear for all new coupons


Im 100% percent certain that the screen is to change HE%'s for created coupons. There is NOTHING that is indicative that this is NOT the case. Coupons that you type into the Cashier are 'manufactured' here. It determines what Games you may play on the coupon, and what the operator wants the RTP (Minus HE%) to be on their 400% Signup Coupon BIGSLOT400

The instructions are pretty simple and another explaination does not seem plausible to me.

The simple reality of the function is that RTG operators are able to offer coupons and choose games which they want to exclude and change the HE% on those coupons.

The 'Super User' is available to all Casinos. It's laughable that 'some' RTG Operators may only have it.

'This tool simply enables your promo guys to have some idea of the expected win/loss we may experience when they create a coupon'

There is a huge difference between setting something and projecting or estimating something.

Nate

 

[greasemonkey]

Thank you Nate.... and this is why I, for one, keep questioning this. It doesn't sit right with me nor seem correct. The more I think of it the MORE questions come. To just accept that answer and quit talking about it isn't the correct t hing to do.

 

[Nate]

Thank you Nate.... and this is why I, for one, keep questioning this. It doesn't sit right with me nor seem correct. The more I think of it the MORE questions come. To just accept that answer and quit talking about it isn't the correct t hing to do.

Bryan provided an explanation from someone. We either accept it ... or we don't. This does not mean that the discussion cannot continue in a sensible manner

Life teaches you NOT to accept everything at face value. The screen shot that was posted IS privileged information BUT there is nothing on it that a 'Competitor' may gain an advantage on. All Software companies have super geeks doing calculations for them.

If the screen said - 'Populate these areas to determine the Expected HE% on a Coupon' - I would rest my case.

The screen shot is clear (and can be NO MORE Explicit) that it is an area to SET excluded games, play through and HE% for new coupons. The RTG values are merely an indicator of what the recommended or default settings of the software provider are.

Nate.

 

[chayton]

sorry, I'm a dope - what does HE% mean?

 

[Nifty29]

AFAIK that 'someone' was Bryan's contact at RTG.

It was also confirmed by an ex-RTG operator (who surely has no reason to do RTG any favors)

So the choices are:

1. RTG and Nicolas are blatantly lying.

2. As per above, and Bryan knows and is 'in on it'

3. As per #1, and Bryan is being hoodwinked/played for a fool.

4. RTG and Nicolas are telling the truth.

If I have missed any other option please feel free to add.

I understand the motto of the conspiracy theorist is 'if it cant be disproven it must be true', so I see where some of you were coming from.

However, it seems the explanation provided is good enough for all but a few so I guess its just a case of everyone else being stupid and blindly following the flock

 

[greasemonkey]

sorry, I'm a dope - what does HE% mean?

House Edge Percentage

 

[greasemonkey]

AFAIK that 'someone' was Bryan's contact at RTG.

It was also confirmed by an ex-RTG operator (who surely has no reason to do RTG any favors)

So the choices are:

1. RTG and Nicolas are blatantly lying.

2. As per above, and Bryan knows and is 'in on it'

3. As per #1, and Bryan is being hoodwinked/played for a fool.

4. RTG and Nicolas are telling the truth.

If I have missed any other option please feel free to add.

I understand the motto of the conspiracy theorist is 'if it cant be disproven it must be true', so I see where some of you were coming from.

However, it seems the explanation provided is good enough for all but a few so I guess its just a case of everyone else being stupid and blindly following the flock

I'm glad you weren't around when Columbus was trying to argue that the world was round and not flat. II'll take #3 for a dollar.

Why do you keep saying "most of us think this way so others must be wrong"? I wouldn't give a flying flip if all of you thought 2+2 was 5. I still want to question it because it doesn't make sense. And when did you take a census to figure out how the majority felt? I am pretty sure many don't know what to make of it yet. That is why we DONT WANT TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU BEG US TO. If you don't like the conversation quit clicking on this thread and leave us to our conversation then.
Nifty, it is just unproductive for you to keep interrupting the conversation with motions to stop talking about it. OBVIOUSLY many of us are still not satisfied with the nonsensical answer and would like to continue discussing it. Thanks.

 

[Nifty29]

I'm glad you weren't around when Columbus was trying to argue that the world was round and not flat. II'll take #3 for a dollar.

Why do you keep saying "most of us think this way so others must be wrong"? I wouldn't give a flying flip if all of you thought 2+2 was 5. I still want to question it because it doesn't make sense. And when did you take a census to figure out how the majority felt? I am pretty sure many don't know what to make of it yet. That is why we DONT WANT TO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU BEG US TO. If you don't like the conversation quit clicking on this thread and leave us to our conversation then.
Nifty, it is just unproductive for you to keep interrupting the conversation with motions to stop talking about it. OBVIOUSLY many of us are still not satisfied with the nonsensical answer and would like to continue discussing it. Thanks.

LOL.

I've already said it isn't up to me whether the thread closes or not.

All I'm saying is that you can discuss it all you like, but nobody from RTG or anyone else is going to come forward and say "dang, you got us!" because...well...YOU DIDN'T.

I'm sure Bryan will be happy to know that you think he is a fool

It really comes down to who you believe, and I'll put my faith in someone like Bryan (who has probably forgotten more than you know about online gambling) every day and twice on Sundays over a couple of members who find a conspiracy theory when more than two people in a room don't eat their crusts.

If you believe that RTG has this function to 'cheat' players, then you would have to believe that they all have it......so the next penny you spend at any online casino reduces your credibility to zero, unless of course we are to believe that you are a fool and you knowingly allow blatant cheats to rip you off.

I would be far more likely to give credit to someone who posted their 'casinos cheat' theory and then proceeded to never play at an online casino again - at least they would have the courage of their convictions, and not just be constantly trying to come up with reasons to blame someone other than themselves for the fact that they lose.

Anyhoo.....discuss away! (...and I'll chime in whenever I damn well feel like it )

 

[PenDragyn21]

Did anyone answer yet why only some casinos had the super user yet?

aside from that question I appreciate you trying to end the thread and stifle questions but please allow the people to ask questions. It's not hurting anything to be curious. Thanks

VinylWeatherMan answered about "super user" in post #22 of this thread but here's quote:

"Super User" itself does not mean all that much, it is a bit like "administrator" in Windows, an account with higher levels of access than others, and something to be expected in any back end application where lowly front line CS have access to less functionality than management, marketing, and security.

AFAIK, "super user" is a term from unix. A "super user" has permissions that normal users don't have so that they can keep the system running. It's like the difference between being simple poster on this forum like you and me or being one of the moderators.

Maybe it costs more. It could be a different type of licensing.
PD

 

[daveboz]

Glad to see others are on to the RTG maniulation

I was chastized last week for my comments on BoDog and Intertops. Now what is this about RTG and PAYOUT TWEAKING?

Bodog not out of the woods yet although RTP has always been fair, good streaks are hit. It's the free fall that is suspicious. I have been utilizing better bankroll management but still something is off at that site. If you hit a streak at Bodog stop playing after 3-4 straight losing hands. Still a good place if you can walk away and come back at a later time.

Intertops? Don't even think about playing there in my opinion.

How long before Rainmaker responds?

 

[EbeeDog]

Oh geez.

Please produce some evidence, apart from 'someone told me'.

I assume this Super User access allows personal RTP adjustments and the ability to award RJs to selected players , extra cards in blackjack decks, <insert favorite conspiracy theory here>

Its becoming tiresome how you walk into RTG threads, drop a giant 'bombshell', and then walk away without answering any tough questions about it.

I'm not saying you're lying, its just hard to take the word of someone who has always enjoyed the 'ban me if you like' attention-grabbing spotlight and more than a few bogus conspiracy theories.

Hmmmm.....

And I don't think young rainmaker is going to be baited that easily.

nifty maybe , but of course.......

VinylWeatherMan answered about "super user" in post #22 of this thread but here's quote:


AFAIK, "super user" is a term from unix. A "super user" has permissions that normal users don't have so that they can keep the system running. It's like the difference between being simple poster on this forum like you and me or being one of the moderators.

Maybe it costs more. It could be a different type of licensing.
PD

I repeat: Oh fuckin please....

 

[3mptyseat]

U need only play 50 hands of BJ

On any rtg to see that its a less than random system... Or if its random, the card values used are random in value, but when it comes to display, they come up as a paired face more often than is mathematically possible... I am serious... Play 20 hands on play money... QQ, KK, JJ, see any of those?? Either u or the dealer will have them, and often, when u have one of them, the dealer will have one too...

We already know that RTG has loose ethical boundaries. We know this bc of the Fruit Frenzy issue... We know this because many of us can "feel" the difference between the way it was and the way it is... And I dont know about u guys, but I either win-win-win or its gone betting small real quick... And lastly, we know they toe the line between business people and accessories to criminal groups bc of the licenses that they continue to renew... They have very little opinion of their target market, bc their research has deduced that even after myriad examples of deception and in the case of licensee's, fraud, there is still a hungry customer base even in this over saturated marketplace, that will be there with some cash to burn and expectations as high as their impulse control ability is low...

So that being said... I will agree with nifty on one specific point (or sentence really):

We are not going to be receiving an admission of anything interesting from RTG...

And I agree with the RTG Conspiracy Theorists as well, just because we get the answer we can't accept, we shouldn't stop the debate; already in the course of this thread things have popped out at me that make this more interesting than I originally thought it would be... And I have to admit, while I lean one way atm on this subject, I am not 100% convinced of anything, save for the inevitability of my taxes, my baldness, and my mortality...

That being said, accepting the answer given as 'their answer' is a horse of a different color from accepting "their answer as THE answer"...

So consider this: Given what we know of greed, how could anyone assume that mostof these sites/platforms are not rigged in some deceptive, unfair, or outright cheating way to increase HA%? You know how many people I talk to who are weekly depositors at a place and when I ask them, "So I hear their cashouts are slow?", a typical response from the more candid of players is, "I wouldn't know one way or the other but I love their...".

At the end of the day, except for the horribly addicted, its amusement... So lets not judge people because they make deposits at places whilst likewise believing the place to be less than fair... That doesn't make them an idiot, that makes them a gambler... GL to YOU fair gamblers!

 

[Nifty29]

At the end of the day, except for the horribly addicted, its amusement... So lets not judge people because they make deposits at places whilst likewise believing the place to be less than fair... That doesn't make them an idiot, that makes them a gambler... GL to YOU fair gamblers

I don't agree.

If anyone plays online casinos believing they are cheating and lying, they may not be an idiot.....but it certainly doesn't add much weight to their opinion, as they obviously don't really believe it.

How ridiculous does this statement sound:

"Online casinos cheat and I've even seen 'proof', and I believe they have been doing so for a long time. Now, if you'll excuse me I'm off to play at one right now."

Well this is exactly how it looks when members post passionately about how badly they are being ripped off etc, only to post the next day about how they played at XX casino.

I can tell you now - if I really believed all these theories were true i.e. all casinos cheat as SOP, then I would stop playing...as anyone else who really believed all this stuff would also do.

Yes, it makes them a gambler. An ignorant and careless one. After all, it's hard enough to win when everything is completely above board, let alone playing games that you know are cheating. Sorry, but that really is stupid.

 

[3mptyseat]

I changed the terms of the orig. idea

So lets not judge people because they make deposits at places whilst likewise believing the place to be less than fair

I dont use the word cheat and I am not interested in an argument... Lets agree to this: RTP is not dictated by a governing body ATM in the majority of the online community... So if an operator who has the ability to lower RTP and does so, eventually we would have to come to the conclusion that somewhere along the line the system became "less than fair" but its pretty effing subjective...

U don't know what the exact RTP is overall at a place at any given time... The payouts inetbet publishes have been on a slope downward for each of the past however many years... I am positive its that way elsewhere... So what I meant to say is, knowing that percentages of player return have been diminished, and thinking that its not cool, but having few options and playing anyway is not A) The same as what u are claiming is so "stupid" (@nifty) and B) That easy to distinguish the point of no return between fair and unfair, bc after all, some win even at 50% lower RTP% than is standard...

I can tell you now - if I really believed all these theories were true i.e. all casinos cheat as SOP, then I would stop playing...as anyone else who really believed all this stuff would also do.

I disagree... What about the winner at one of these places that cheats? I know people who have won thousands playing bj at AP/UB... I also know they have cheated in keno, they have re-written the betsoft orig. program code on their video slots, and then the superuser biggie, but I have a ridiculously high ROI there and before yesterday, play there often and cashout just as often...(OBVI not in the casino though, lol) SO I think that there are exceptions to every rule, and I think in the case of casinos, esp online ones where some win while most lose, knowing something to be one way, and being personally affected by it can be two very different things...

 

[Nate]

My posts are far cry from claiming that RTG is 'cheating'. I'm merely trying to point out that what they say the screen does, does not actually gel up with the instructions on the screen.

Adjusting RTP on any Slot is perfectly legal even in B&M Casinos. This isn't a conspiracy theory, its a logical discussion. Im trying to understand why the screen says SET the values for Excluded Games, Playthrough and HE%... It further says that the value will appear for all new coupons....

I'm being told that it has nothing to do with changing HE% and is merely something that gives them an 'idea' of the expected win/loss.

This is kinda like saying the 'Shut Down' button on Windows XP is not a shut down button, but gives you an idea of what website internet explorer will redirect to if you click it.

Uhhmmm - Am I stupid or a conspiracy theorist for reading something that is straight forward?

Lol...

Nate