RTG Random Jackpots Anomaly

[mistertee]

I have hit 3 random jackpots at jackpot capital a year ago and was paid the full amount for all of them- this was in a 3 month period- $10,000, 1200, and 1400 !!

these were all hit on low rolling bets .25 .40 and .60 cents

 

[colly]

I have hit 3 random jackpots at jackpot capital a year ago and was paid the full amount for all of them- this was in a 3 month period- $10,000

Damn it Mister Tee- did you win my haunted opera jackpot!

Congrats anyway

Cheers

 

[Nifty29]

Sure can...read up on it on the forum just as I have including Inetbet's quote on newbies and randoms...guess you missed that one huh?

Would you mind providing a link please Silc? I don't know where to find it, and I am very interested to read.

Back to backhanded name calling again I see....ahhhh Nifty....I once again choose not to play your games and stay in the sandbox with you...

You took that quote totally out of context. The full quote was "The other result is that it makes you look stupid, but I don't believe that to be the case as you do make intelligent arguments".

I could have worded it better but you know exactly what I meant and it wasn't to insult you - quite the opposite actually.

So each time I question your logic or present another side of the coin, you come back with the 'I won't play your games' card.

In other words, you are happy to throw around all sorts of wild theories and conspiracies, but refuse to debate the their validity.

I haven't made it personal. I have based my arguments on the facts....and yet you still claim I am 'playing games'.

IMO the real reason you will not discuss them is because you have no evidence or data to support your claims.

Prove me wrong.

 

[De Beuker]

Random jackpots have been discussed several times in the past on this forum, and if anyone is really interested in the subject they should look up my previous posts on the matter.

In summary, yes, the chance is proportional to the amount wagered.

Audi, it would not be possible to have a game function as you specify (not referenced to bet size), as otherwise RTP from the jackpot would not be consistent (one sort of player would be getting a higher RTP than another sort of player).

e.g.:
A player bets $1, and has a 1 in 100,000 chance of hitting a jackpot with an average size of $1,000 (for ease of example).
The jackpot consumes an average of 1% of RTP

A player bets $0.01 (1 cent), and has a 1 in 100,000 chance of hitting a jackpot with an average size of $1,000 (for ease of example).
The jackpot consumes an average of 100% of RTP

Woooof

If I may ask a question to you, if the above is true (which I do not doubt btw) then what about the jackpots in games like Year of Fortune?
That one is won when you get 5 of the Gods of Happiness on a payline and pays the same amount no matter what your betsize is.
I've seen someone hit it for 13.5K once from a 0.50 spin.

So in this case a lowroller should get a higher RTP because of the jackpot than a highroller?
Or does every player contribute the same amount per spin to the jackpot, no matter what the betsize is?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Seventh777]

Oh well, thx for replying everyone, seems to have stirred up quite a hornets nest , I use several casino based forums and it appeared that a high majority of people hitting these RJP`s did so when they were on restricted payouts but it seems they are pretty 50/50.

Once again, thx all.

 

[Nifty29]

Oh well, thx for replying everyone, seems to have stirred up quite a hornets nest , I use several casino based forums and it appeared that a high majority of people hitting these RJP`s did so when they were on restricted payouts but it seems they are pretty 50/50.

Once again, thx all.

Do you honestly believe that the RTG software can detect if you are playing with a max cashout bonus and adjust your RJ chances upward accordingly?

I just don't see how this could be achieved. In many cases, bonuses aren't shown as restricted in the coupon details, and in other cases they are just placed in the cash balance e.g. inetbet manager bonus - and the cashier 'coupon details' section has only recently began to show if there is any max cashout attached in selected casinos.

You also need to remember that the sample size here, and probably at any other forum, is so tiny that you couldn't extrapolate any meaningful data and, therefore, couldn't even begin to draw any conclusions.

It is possible that there may be more RJs hit on max cashout chips/bonuses due to the fact that players will often play mich higher bets than usual, especially if they are way over the max cashout ceiling and just playing from some extra comps or to play the balance down. I've been known to resort to $20 bets just for sh*t and giggles in this situation (when I used to get sucked into max cashouts) so I am certain that others have done the same.

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

Do you honestly believe that the RTG software can detect if you are playing with a max cashout bonus and adjust your RJ chances upward accordingly?

I just don't see how this could be achieved.

trust me, everything can be achieved if desired....
writing software for 10+ years

 

[DogBoy001]

Just a quick query Dogboy- I was under the impression that RTP calculation was done after excluding random jackpots and progressives- or is it only system wide progressives that are excluded- Your comments imply that this is not the case- can you clarify.

Cheers Colly-(OK collies can wooof too so Wooof)

Heya,

The total game RTP includes any contribution towards either network progressives or local progressives (or both, if there are games that have both a network as well as a local).

In all instances total RTP derived from the jackpots are <1.5%, as stipulated on the rules pages.

Woooof

 

[SlotsLover]

RJ w/ no max

I've hit a few randoms over the last two years, none with max cashout.

 

[DogBoy001]

If I may ask a question to you, if the above is true (which I do not doubt btw) then what about the jackpots in games like Year of Fortune?
That one is won when you get 5 of the Gods of Happiness on a payline and pays the same amount no matter what your betsize is.
I've seen someone hit it for 13.5K once from a 0.50 spin.

So in this case a lowroller should get a higher RTP because of the jackpot than a highroller?
Or does every player contribute the same amount per spin to the jackpot, no matter what the betsize is?

Thanks in advance!

Heya,

Symbol-driven jackpots such as this one are based on the minimum bet size (so for a USD player, $0.25, since this game uses compulsory 25 line play).

In this particular game the odds of hitting the jackpot are constant across all bet levels.
This does see a slight reduction of RTP for players betting >$0.25, but is kept relatively close to the RTP of the minimum bet player.
The $ contribution amount per spin to the jackpot increases for bets over the minimum level.

Woooof

 

[slotjunkie]

So each time I question your logic or present another side of the coin, you come back with the 'I won't play your games' card.

In other words, you are happy to throw around all sorts of wild theories and conspiracies, but refuse to debate the their validity.

I haven't made it personal. I have based my arguments on the facts....and yet you still claim I am 'playing games'.

IMO the real reason you will not discuss them is because you have no evidence or data to support your claims.

Prove me wrong.

She doesn't have to prove anything to YOU, it is her opinion(which she does not have to state with her claims)!

And you really need to STOP calling people names and then TRY to clean it up with a FORCED nicety!

 

[slotjunkie]

trust me, everything can be achieved if desired....
writing software for 10+ years

Very true! My husband has been, designing and building software and systems for over 20 years!

Anything can be done...PERIOD!!

I say go with your gut intuition, it is usually right!

Oh by the way, like the first couple of weeks into online gambling(just started late 09') I won a $3000+ random on a free chip with like a $50 max cashout at Virtual Casino, but they removed it from my account and I didn't care to fight it! The only other time was a minor;a couple months later for $375.00 on Wok N Roll at Alladin's Gold ($30.00 manager bonus) cashed out the maximum of $200.00
I just checked my files and apparently I won a minor(in the beginning) at Lucky Club Slots too, don't know what the amount was for though or if I was able to cashout!

 

[Nifty29]

She doesn't have to prove anything to YOU, it is her opinion(which she does not have to state with her claims)!

And you really need to STOP calling people names and then TRY to clean it up with a FORCED nicety!

What does "she does not have to state with her claims" mean?

I'm aware that just about anything can be done with software. Most good operators replace the funds back into the jackpot anyway so what is the point of doing it in the first place?

The whole idea is ridiculous IMO.

I don't blame Silc or anyone else for not providing any evidence. - because there isn't any due to the fact that RANDOM jackpots go off RANDOMLY and who WINS it is influenced by what bet level they were using at the time. Nothing else. Not how long they have been playing, or what bonus they take, or the color of their eyes.

It is all about LUCK. Pure and simple.

You need to be at the right casino playing the right game at the right time.

Don't just take it from me...there has been plenty of evidence provided here at CM over the years, even from Bryan himself.

Evidence of anything other than what I have described is like a friendly Top Game CSR. - it doesn't exist.

 

[takethemoney]

Heya,

The total game RTP includes any contribution towards either network progressives or local progressives (or both, if there are games that have both a network as well as a local).

In all instances total RTP derived from the jackpots are <1.5%, as stipulated on the rules pages.

Woooof

Which brings up a great case for people who don't have the money or time to chase RJ's. Why will RTG not create the same games we know and love in non RJ slots? I would suspect that if they did this there would be much less bitching about payouts.

 

[pinkfloyd]

if the main server doesnt know a player is playing on free chip how long does it take a casino to notify the main server that the player has a max cashout ?


if i have a 30 buck free chip max cash of 300 and hit a 5k jackpot ... do they put $4700 back into the pool instantly or does the casino keep it ? do they only notify the main server after i try for a cashout ? does it take 1 day or a week ?

if so wouldnt that bugger the chances of everyone trying for a jackpot their % ( the time frame in between ) would drop while the money is taken from the jackpot , only to be returned later ?

 

[chayton]

I'm still waiting for my RJ...can't hit one playing for real, for fun, tourney mode, nothing. Maybe I'm saving up all my luck for a really really BIG one.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Dogboy can you please clear up a couple of questions about RTG RJ's?

In the AWP thread you said that players betting bigger amounts have a proportionally better chance of hitting an RJ. So if one player is betting $1 and another $10 does that mean the player betting $10 has for example 15 times more chances of winning rather then 10? If this is the case are you able to indicate how much better the chances are on higher bets?

Say you are playing a 95% game with a RJ. At what point is the RTP determined? Is it at reset which is $1000 I think or (more likely) is it at a mid point amount say $3500 on the meter?

If you are playing a 95% game and the RJ is up to $8000 say then would that be boosting your theoretical RTP in the same way a progressive video poker game operates? I am assuming that $3500 = 95% RTP for the sake of argument.

If there are say five 95% seperate RJ games should you always play the one with the highest RJ? Or do different games have different cycles? I guess it would make sense to have a mixture of harder and easier RJ's just like you get higher and lower variance slots. I have seen linked RJ's that operate accross 4 slots say but are there single slot RJ's too? Having a mixture of single slot RJ's and linked RJ's would provide different variances I think.

TIA.

 

[slotjunkie]

What does "she does not have to state with her claims" mean?

I'm aware that just about anything can be done with software. Most good operators replace the funds back into the jackpot anyway so what is the point of doing it in the first place?

The whole idea is ridiculous IMO.

I don't blame Silc or anyone else for not providing any evidence. - because there isn't any due to the fact that RANDOM jackpots go off RANDOMLY and who WINS it is influenced by what bet level they were using at the time. Nothing else. Not how long they have been playing, or what bonus they take, or the color of their eyes.

It is all about LUCK. Pure and simple.

You need to be at the right casino playing the right game at the right time.

Don't just take it from me...there has been plenty of evidence provided here at CM over the years, even from Bryan himself.

Evidence of anything other than what I have described is like a friendly Top Game CSR. - it doesn't exist.

"it makes you look stupid, but I don't believe that to be the case as you do make intelligent arguments on other occasions!" Figure it out!!!

 

[DogBoy001]

Dogboy can you please clear up a couple of questions about RTG RJ's?

In the AWP thread you said that players betting bigger amounts have a proportionally better chance of hitting an RJ. So if one player is betting $1 and another $10 does that mean the player betting $10 has for example 15 times more chances of winning rather then 10? If this is the case are you able to indicate how much better the chances are on higher bets?

Heya,

The chance is entirely proportional, so a $10 bet has 10 times better chance to trigger the random than a $1 bet.

Say you are playing a 95% game with a RJ. At what point is the RTP determined? Is it at reset which is $1000 I think or (more likely) is it at a mid point amount say $3500 on the meter?

RTP is determined purely from the average trigger value, which is simply:

Reset value + increment (contribution to the jackpot per spin) * 1/trigger probability

This is based on a $1 bet, and any bet above or below that has a proportionately higher or lower chance to trigger.
i.e.: A 1c bet has 1/100 the trigger chance and a $10 bet has 10* the trigger chance.

So if, (numbers purely for example), a jackpot resets to $1,000, and has an increment of 0.5% per spin, with a 1 in 300,000 trigger chance (on a $1 bet), the average trigger value will be: $1,000 + 0.5% * 300,000 = $2,500 average trigger value

RTP is therefore the prize/probability of triggering that prize.
In this example: 2,500/300,000 = 0.83333%

The RTP for this a jackpot is effectively the same as receiving a scatter prize, in this case of of 2,500 (since this would be multiplied by total bet).

If you are playing a 95% game and the RJ is up to $8000 say then would that be boosting your theoretical RTP in the same way a progressive video poker game operates? I am assuming that $3500 = 95% RTP for the sake of argument.

Effectively that is true.

Unlike other prizes with a constant value, once a random moves beyond the average trigger value the reality is that RTP is effectively improved during play at such time.

Since the calculation of RTP would be based on (again using above example numbers only), a 2,500 prize, if a jackpot had grown to 8,000 and still had the same 300,000 trigger rate, this would add 1.83333% to the effective RTP (since total jackpot RTP would now be 8000/300,000).

If there are say five 95% seperate RJ games should you always play the one with the highest RJ? Or do different games have different cycles? I guess it would make sense to have a mixture of harder and easier RJ's just like you get higher and lower variance slots. I have seen linked RJ's that operate accross 4 slots say but are there single slot RJ's too? Having a mixture of single slot RJ's and linked RJ's would provide different variances I think.

TIA.

It can be a little hard to determine the best possible play, because games that have the newer Minor/Major versus those that have the single jackpot do have different increment and trigger probability values (which is necessary when moving from 1 jackpot to 2, in order not to blow out RTP).

Some games or sets of games may also have a different average trigger value, yet same RTP.
For example, using above number as a base:
If a game has a 1 in 600,000 trigger rate (instead of 1 in 300,000), and increment is shifted from 0.5% per spin to 0.6667% per spin, the RTP is still 0.833333%, but the average value of the trigger would now be $5,000.

It's best to use the guide of familiarity with the previous levels that a random has gone off at.
So if you know that a jackpot has grown beyond a point that seems usual for that game, it's likely above it's average trigger value (which it will be some of the time)

In fact, this would work out to 36.79% of the time, this being:
((1-(1/average spins to trigger))^average spins to trigger) in the above example
e.g.: ((1-(1/300,000))^300,000) = (0.99996667)^300,000 = 36.79%
The same is true no matter what the chance to trigger is, so a 1 in 600,000 would also see it go above average trigger value 36.79% of the time.

Woooof

 

[DiamondGeezer]

Superb post and it throws up many interesting points.

What on earth is the point of playing an RJ machine if you are on a low max cashout? You are effectively lowering your RTP by a substantial amount, not to mention the hideous feeling of leaving say $2k in winnings behind. It's almost as if players are hoping they won't win.

Players on a budget should take note of the different trigger levels on offer ie it's better to play a more frequent trigger RJ if on a smaller budget just because of the variance rather than RTP.

 

[DogBoy001]

Players on a budget should take note of the different trigger levels on offer ie it's better to play a more frequent trigger RJ if on a smaller budget just because of the variance rather than RTP.

The Minor/Major 2 jackpot system certainly sees the Minor jackpots go off with far more frequency than the single Random jackpot system (and conversely the Major will go off less frequently).

The Minors have a much smaller reset (USD$250 for USD play) and in most instances a trigger rate some 5 times the previous trigger probability of the single jackpot games.

Woooof

 

[all4greed]

DogBoy001, great all around info

Why are the RJ's active in free mode? I've hit a lot of them, sometimes just a few minutes apart. But I'm thinking someone new to the casino or perhaps OLG in general might think they happen all the time, switch to real mode, and reality (usually) sets in.

So what's the point of having them?

 

[DogBoy001]

Why are the RJ's active in free mode? I've hit a lot of them, sometimes just a few minutes apart. But I'm thinking someone new to the casino or perhaps OLG in general might think they happen all the time, switch to real mode, and reality (usually) sets in.

So what's the point of having them?

I'm gathering that in free mode your average bets were substantial (e.g.: $125 bets in free play)?

The reason for having them is twofold:
1) To provide effectively the same play as in real mode and
2) To avoid having to produce 2 distinct builds of the same game

Woooof

 

[Edward D. Wood]

I'm still waiting for my RJ...can't hit one playing for real, for fun, tourney mode, nothing. Maybe I'm saving up all my luck for a really really BIG one.

the same here - been playing those stupid slots for years now....low and highrolling....as long as i stay out of the rj-winners. i call this whole rj-thing rigged.
sure, i made some very good sessions, but i never hit a rj.