RTG - changed gameplay?

[Rusty]

I am not sure on this because I stopped playing RTG but tried Casino Titan out of curiosity to see if CS etc was as described in a thread here.

CS is very friendly and responsive even though my deposit went the usual way.
You can now play 3 or 4 coins as well as 1 or 2.
Good move there but here is the strange thing, the games no longer play the same.
So for example in Cleopatras Gold when you get the long spin it spins much longer than before and I had no idea if the scatter would hit as it was completely different. (the chime when scatter lands has been fixed)

Now the change to the stake system and how the slots play may seem completely unrelated but why has the gameplay changed?

Without employing my curious mind - I would just say that the stake system is an improvement and long overdue but not sure what has changed in the slot programming or what the purpose is.

So people what do you think?
Is this the same at all RTG's?

 

[chuchu59]

I dont know but I happened to play about 24 hours ago at Titan and they underwent maintenance and I wasnt able to play for half an hour. Could it have been this? However, the bug could have been fixed before this and that is a plus for RTG going to the right direction. As for 3-4 coins, It is good for many those playing with a bonus as they get to play $0.60$0.75 or $0.80$1.00 stakes at the 20line/25-line slots. Previously the juunp from 2 coins to 5 coins was too steep and many would not like to risk their playtime against clearing WRs though at 2 coins you are caught dead usually even with a big win.

Seems you have been lured back to RTG Rusty. Go get
some big wins. You are overdue for a change of luck.

 

[slotheadlizard]

wow

Rusty, you are right. It goes like that up to 2.50, then the usual 6.75. I think its great! No longer do you have to go from 50c up to 1.25.

I was already playing in fun mode at CTitan because they have the new slots. They seem pretty fun. Anyone know when the other rtgs will add the new slots? I can't find them on any of the CM listed casinos, although I like Casino Titan.

You may be right, they do seem to take an extra turn or two! I wonder if that's on purpose. It doesn't really bother me though, sort of prolongs the suspense.

 

[Rusty]

Thanks Guys,
The thing is you could always predict with 100% accuracy (if a slot junkie) when you would hit the feature becaase of where the long spin started.
That seems to have changed at Titan or was it a bug I encountered or have all RTG changed?
Is there a relationship between the improved staking system and the new way the games play?

 

[slotheadlizard]

Cahnge

No, I have only so far seen the change at Casin Titan, and Lucky18

 

[Rusty]

No, I have only so far seen the change at Casin Titan, and Lucky18

Does Lucky 18 have the new stake system as well?
Do the other Casinos with the old gameplay have the new stake system?
I wish to know if there is a link.

 

[zebedy]

i hope all rtg casino's take up the 3&4 coin bet sizes

 

[cpdnd31]

What new slots?

 

[slotheadlizard]

new

Texan Tycoon, and Loose Caboose-I think, but only at a few so far.

 

[Tengil]

snip. read slotheadlizards edit

Well could add that the new stake system is a big step forward.

 

[Rusty]

This should be huge news but I guess it is normal with the industry being so unregulated.
The reel layouts are different!
Just noticed this with a little more play.
So I could play the same slot on the same software at Two different Casinos and be playing Two different games.

Well in truth that situation has always existed because the return is not based on the paytable and probability of outcome but there ya go.

Can you imagine playing the same slot at MG with Two different reel layouts?
Bizzare, I assume they will update all the Casinos with this new version of the software eventually but you would think they would of all updated at the same time with the relevant announcement to the players.
Oh F*** the players - I was at the meeting

 

[Rusty]

OK I have conluded my test of this Casino and my advice?
Steer well clear. (that would go for all RTG but I know you don't listen )

How RTG software is not at least "not recommended" is beyond me.
It should actually be rogued but I am trying to be diplomatic.

How can you have Two different versions of the same slots running at the same time?

Extra symbols have been added here (Casino Titan) but no extra scatters so even if you ever believed the software was fair (Free head testing here) the features are less likely to trigger so obviously lower return.

Maybe they have increased variance by giving higher free spin wins?
If they have that would prove the software is rigged anyway.

So slot mechanics changed with no explanation or information supplied to the player. (A huge no, no if regulated)

Absolute silence on how the Rushmore RJ's are so much higher than anywhere else even accounting for slots being linked.

No explanation of why the software has different payout returns and which Casinos offer which return.

It is a ridiculous situation and speaks volumes for the lack of any regulation imposed on any of these Casinos.

 

[DogBoy001]

How can you have Two different versions of the same slots running at the same time?

Extra symbols have been added here (Casino Titan) but no extra scatters so even if you ever believed the software was fair (Free head testing here) the features are less likely to trigger so obviously lower return.

Rusty, you know there are multiple RTP versions of all the reel series games.

So yes, it is entirely possible to have 2 different (RTP) versions of the same slot running at the same time on different casinos.

And you've answered your own question.
To create a higher or lower RTP version reel strips may very well be altered by adding or deleting several symbols from 1 or more reels (in Cleopatras case there is a chance where 2 symbols are added to reel 2).

There's nothing untoward about this, and even in traditional, land-based casinos operators are permitted to make changes to the RTP in use, and no, they do not have to advertise this to players.
In Australia operators are allowed to switch from one RTP version to another once every 30 days.

Woooof

 

[slotheadlizard]

Rusty

Wow, you have made some really good observations today. I don't really understand the techie talk, but it sounds important. However, I must respectfully disagree with discontinuing to play all rtg slots. I as a player really like most of them.

I am even more, not less enthused about the denomination change at a couple of casinos. What I am most happy about is the return of Sherlock at a couple of the casinos previously mentioned on this thread today. It was my fav. game until it left, and my play with rtg went down because of it. It is now back and re branded as London Inspector. Yippee

 

[Rusty]

Rusty, you know there are multiple RTP versions of all the reel series games.

So yes, it is entirely possible to have 2 different (RTP) versions of the same slot running at the same time on different casinos.

And you've answered your own question.
To create a higher or lower RTP version reel strips may very well be altered by adding or deleting several symbols from 1 or more reels (in Cleopatras case there is a chance where 2 symbols are added to reel 2).

There's nothing untoward about this, and even in traditional, land-based casinos operators are permitted to make changes to the RTP in use, and no, they do not have to advertise this to players.
In Australia operators are allowed to switch from one RTP version to another once every 30 days.

Woooof

Yes, I am already familiar with old RTG switcheroo but this is something else.

All the RTG Casinos I have played, maybe 20 or 30 and Millions of spins this is the First time i have experienced these extra long reel strips.
It is not just cleopatras Gold or One reel or even 1 or 2 symbols it is all the slots I tried and several reels and several symbols added so this is a new thing not something that has been around before so we can nip that in the bud before we start.
Just to emphasize this, the difference is so profound that there is no way I can predict if a 3rd scatter will hit from the reel start position (long spin) something I was able to do with 100% accuracy at all other RTG after some playtime. (maybe they all had the exact same return at all times? )

As far as I am aware landbase Casinos have to state the minimum RTP on their slots, certainly here in the UK.
There is a reason for that.
Do they have to display the new RTP in Australia when they change them?

Is it just me or does it seem a little unfair to the player that they can play the same slot with a theoretical 93% payout One Day and who knows what the next Day, or the next spin for all we know.

 

[Rusty]

Wow, you have made some really good observations today. I don't really understand the techie talk, but it sounds important. However, I must respectfully disagree with discontinuing to play all rtg slots. I as a player really like most of them.

I am even more, not less enthused about the denomination change at a couple of casinos. What I am most happy about is the return of Sherlock at a couple of the casinos previously mentioned on this thread today. It was my fav. game until it left, and my play with rtg went down because of it. It is now back and re branded as London Inspector. Yippee

Yeah that is fair enough, it is up to you where you play.
I agree RTG make some great slots, some of the best IMO.
The stake change is definitely a step forward and a good move.

I wish I felt differently about the software but I can not ignore the serious concerns I have.
Concerns that are not just limited to RTG it has to be said.
I would play RTG before Rival for example but that doesn't say much.

 

[DogBoy001]

Yes, I am already familiar with old RTG switcheroo but this is something else.

All the RTG Casinos I have played, maybe 20 or 30 and Millions of spins this is the First time i have experienced these extra long reel strips.
It is not just cleopatras Gold or One reel or even 1 or 2 symbols it is all the slots I tried and several reels and several symbols added so this is a new thing not something that has been around before so we can nip that in the bud before we start.
Just to emphasize this, the difference is so profound that there is no way I can predict if a 3rd scatter will hit from the reel start position (long spin) something I was able to do with 100% accuracy at all other RTG after some playtime. (maybe they all had the exact same return at all times? )

As far as I am aware landbase Casinos have to state the minimum RTP on their slots, certainly here in the UK.
There is a reason for that.
Do they have to display the new RTP in Australia when they change them?

Is it just me or does it seem a little unfair to the player that they can play the same slot with a theoretical 93% payout One Day and who knows what the next Day, or the next spin for all we know.

Heya,

In Oz there's no display of RTP...there'd likely be a revolt if there was, since the typical pub will use 85% and most clubs 87%.

Makes it tough for the Government to defend their "player protection" role when they allow RTP percentages that are pure murder...but hey, they're addicted to the tax revenue from the industry.

Re the RTG games, operators have the ability to infrequently change which variant they use, but there have been no changes to the maths in use.
Many of the RTP variants across the suite do use reel strip length adjustments between variants (typically we're talking here only about 1 or 2 symbols on 1 reel, such as Cleo reel 2).

We haven't noticed any prolonged spin periods in test over here (beyond the intended anticipation length). Will have to check it out.

Woooof

 

[chuchu59]

At my 2 favourite RTG slots, Diamond Dozen and Warlock's Spell, they played exactly the same as in beofre accross all RTG casinos and I was able to predict with a great amount of accuracy on whether a 3rd scatter will hit just by glancing at where the reel in question starts spinning. I am not familiar with most other slots, however, and it could well be that they had some alterations. I played a bit on Cleo and I just felt that it was different from before though I cant figure out exactly what it is.

 

[jas2587]

At my 2 favourite RTG slots, Diamond Dozen and Warlock's Spell, they played exactly the same as in beofre accross all RTG casinos and I was able to predict with a great amount of accuracy on whether a 3rd scatter will hit just by glancing at where the reel in question starts spinning. I am not familiar with most other slots, however, and it could well be that they had some alterations. I played a bit on Cleo and I just felt that it was different from before though I cant figure out exactly what it is.

I agree I also played Cleo an there is for sure something very different about it as I played it night before last an tonight was like a complete new game

sumptin is up Thanks Rusty an ChuChu thought I had lost it for a sec there

Cindy

 

[silcnlayc]

Good to see others picking up on these very slight changes that have been happening for the past year. Now I feel redeemed a little bit !

.

 

[Rusty]

Heya,

In Oz there's no display of RTP...there'd likely be a revolt if there was, since the typical pub will use 85% and most clubs 87%.

Makes it tough for the Government to defend their "player protection" role when they allow RTP percentages that are pure murder...but hey, they're addicted to the tax revenue from the industry.

Re the RTG games, operators have the ability to infrequently change which variant they use, but there have been no changes to the maths in use.
Many of the RTP variants across the suite do use reel strip length adjustments between variants (typically we're talking here only about 1 or 2 symbols on 1 reel, such as Cleo reel 2).

We haven't noticed any prolonged spin periods in test over here (beyond the intended anticipation length). Will have to check it out.

Woooof

I am not disagreeing with most of that and I know it is a practice that other software developers employ but on the slots I tested the games were very different to any other RTG I had ever played.
Cleopatras Gold, Achilles and Ronin to be precise.

This fact along with the Cleo scatter chime bug being fixed and the new stake system suggests strongly to me that this is a new and different version of the RTG software than is being run at other Casinos or at least since I last played them (maybe 2 Months).

Obviously we strongly disagree about whether it is ok for software to be manipulated/changed to alter the expected return to player.
Especially since the vendor does not have to stipulate what that return is or even that it is lower.

One very obvious concern with this or any other method of weighting that is used to change expected player returns is that the technology exists to employ this on a real time basis (no pun intended) so that the weighting can be used dynamically - or in simple terms for the uninitiated the dreaded lose switch that can be thrown at any time is a theoretical reality.

In fact any amount of control can be built into such a system and as you will know many of my arguments on here maintain that it already is.
Of course you would disagree with those observations but the fact is I have played Million+ spins in a real money environment, not to mention the Millions of spins on all other software - not to mention my own flash AS3 remake of certain slots for testing purposes and those are my unbias conclusions.

RTG are not the worse offenders and some of their new RTG Casinos are a big improvement (Buzzluck, Cherry Red to name but Two) but unfortunately the untrustworthy RTG casinos are still very much in operation apparently with RTG's blessing.
This is a shame as they drag the whole operation down.

Still these are issues we will never agree on and too broad to discuss here but I would like to ask a couple of purely technical questions if I may.

When you say;
Re the RTG games, operators have the ability to infrequently change which variant they use, but there have been no changes to the maths in use.

Since it is possible to change returns using weighting of existing symbols rather than using the more conspicuous method of adding or removing symbols to the reels, why did RTG choose this more complicated route?

When you say infrequently - you suggest that RTG tells its customers (Casinos) when it can and can not make changes to the expected player return (payout).
Does this not conflict with the idea that RTG want to give its customers (Casinos) control over the expected player return by having several different versions of the software available?

Or translated into a statement from RTG it would be;
"Please buy our software as we offer you unprecedented control over your expected payout BUT only when we say so."
I doubt that would be a big selling point so it makes much more sense to me that these elements of control are part of One software package rather than individual packages that can be clumsily changed now and then on RTG's say so.
That is why I fully believe that Casino Titan software is the only true alternative RTG suite and that all RTG will be "upgrading" to this version soon.

When you state, "no changes to the Maths in use" could you explain what you mean, are you refering to the game algorithms or something else?

Assuming there are a few different RTG suites all independent from One another offering different RTP is this return based on all Casino games?
Or put another way if I switch from a 95% to 91% suite which games are affected by lower returns?

 

[Rusty]

How bizzare.
Checked the freeplay last night and that seemed normal so thought I would make another real cash deposit to check and what do you know the reels and symbols are all back in line with other RTG.
Cleopatras gold makes you ill though it flickers so much, something very wrong there as indeed there is with this Casino if you ask me.
Enjoy

 

[DogBoy001]

This fact along with the Cleo scatter chime bug being fixed and the new stake system suggests strongly to me that this is a new and different version of the RTG software than is being run at other Casinos or at least since I last played them (maybe 2 Months).

The error with the Cleo chime was fixed at the same time as bringing out the new denomination options because it's easier than doing a point release.
The game maths have not changed.

One very obvious concern with this or any other method of weighting that is used to change expected player returns is that the technology exists to employ this on a real time basis (no pun intended) so that the weighting can be used dynamically - or in simple terms for the uninitiated the dreaded lose switch that can be thrown at any time is a theoretical reality.

In fact any amount of control can be built into such a system and as you will know many of my arguments on here maintain that it already is.
Of course you would disagree with those observations but the fact is I have played Million+ spins in a real money environment, not to mention the Millions of spins on all other software - not to mention my own flash AS3 remake of certain slots for testing purposes and those are my unbias conclusions.

The dynamic changes to RTP that you suggest are not used in RTG games.

The method you suggest is typical of UK AWP games, where there is a check of "current RTP" versus "expected RTP", and once the current RTP goes outside of a range (either higher or lower), the game takes remedial action to ensure RTP comes back into the expected range.

IMHO games that function in that fashion suck.

Random games (which RTG games are) are far and away a better option, and over large numbers of games RTP will still fall within an expected range anyway.

RTG are not the worse offenders....

In fact, not offenders at all

When you say;
Re the RTG games, operators have the ability to infrequently change which variant they use, but there have been no changes to the maths in use.

Since it is possible to change returns using weighting of existing symbols rather than using the more conspicuous method of adding or removing symbols to the reels, why did RTG choose this more complicated route?

Because the games are designed for use with our land-based clients as well as on-line, and while some regulatory regimes allow weighting of stop positions, many do not.
(By weighting I gather you are referring to an unequal chance of hitting any given stop position on a given reel, e.g.: Stop position 1 has a higher chance of being called than Stop 2)

Simple combinational maths using an equal chance of each stop position being called is the cleanest way to go.
Having a weighted system (used in 3 reel US steppers, for example) is, IMHO, inherently deceptive.
It is used as a mechanism to create "near miss" scenarios.
Again, this is not the way RTG games operate.

When you say infrequently - you suggest that RTG tells its customers (Casinos) when it can and can not make changes to the expected player return (payout).?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
What I'm saying is that operators make changes infrequently, if at all.
Changing on a daily basis just does not occur.

When you state, "no changes to the Maths in use" could you explain what you mean, are you refering to the game algorithms or something else?

No changes have been made to any of the game maths.
No changes have therefore been made to prizes, reel strips, reel strip layout or feature pick probability schedules (if the game has those) and so forth.

As stated, it's likely that any "chang" you have noted refers purely to the RTP variant in use (again using the Cleo example, there are reel strip changes between variations)

Assuming there are a few different RTG suites all independent from One another offering different RTP is this return based on all Casino games?

Variations can be selected on a game-by-game basis.

Hope it helps

Woooof

 

[Rusty]

The dynamic changes to RTP that you suggest are not used in RTG games.

The method you suggest is typical of UK AWP games, where there is a check of "current RTP" versus "expected RTP", and once the current RTP goes outside of a range (either higher or lower), the game takes remedial action to ensure RTP comes back into the expected range.

Yes this is very much where I get off and you stay on the bus.

Would you believe by a powerful coincidence that my best win at Titan was followed by my worse losing streak?
These are always exaggerated losing streaks as well.
Would you also believe I have countless examples of the exact same thing?
You should - it is fact.
When does a series of repeating coincidences become a pattern?

Perhaps it is more obvious to me because I do not generally cash out but continue to play but if anyone who plays a lot of RTG would care to check past logs they will see that if they look for the end of a good streak or after a big win (The zenith as it were) they will undoubtedly find the losing streak that follows is unusually brutal.
These slots operate very much like AWP slots in some respects IMO although they are able to benefit from virtually unlimited memory and more complex coding as well as real time monitoring and updating which the remote environment affords.

Rusty> RTG are not the worse offenders.

In fact, not offenders at all

In a lawless land there are no offenders that much is true but I was referring to weighting and the lack of information the player receives regarding the return of the game they are playing.
It is inconceivable that any software in its current guise would pass UKGC regulations for example but I concede these games are not bound under such regulations.
If players don't care enough to complain or want to educate themselves in such matters I guess I can't blame software providers for pushing ethical concerns aside in the name of profit.

Because the games are designed for use with our land-based clients as well as on-line, and while some regulatory regimes allow weighting of stop positions, many do not.
(By weighting I gather you are referring to an unequal chance of hitting any given stop position on a given reel, e.g.: Stop position 1 has a higher chance of being called than Stop 2)

That makes sense and yes I was referring to weighting reel stop positions.

Simple combinational maths using an equal chance of each stop position being called is the cleanest way to go.
Having a weighted system (used in 3 reel US steppers, for example) is, IMHO, inherently deceptive.
It is used as a mechanism to create "near miss" scenarios.
Again, this is not the way RTG games operate.

On this we are not so far apart and I agree it is less disingenuous to weight by adding or removing certain symbols than to weight the reel stop positions - nevertheless it is still a method of weighting and being it is done without the players knowledge I still see at as unethical at best.

I have no problem with different Casinos running slightly different versions of the same slot just so long as the player is able to make an informed choice.
Also any changes to a different version should also be made clear to the player - anything else is obviously unfair regardless of how things are done in Oz.

I have no idea why this sort of thing is considered acceptable - slots players are singled out as cash cows it seems.

Imagine playing Blackjack and the deck has half the Aces and Tens taken out and replaced by lower value cards.
Can you imagine what would happen if players asked for the deck to be inspected and this was revealed?
There would be a lynching but somehow if its slots being manipulated it's ok but if it is a table game it is called rigging the deck.

Variations can be selected on a game-by-game basis.

That is interesting.
Am I right in saying that it is not a package then but Casinos can order variants of individual games?
This would mean there could be a significant difference in RTP between not only different Casinos but in individual slots within a Casino?

Are you now officially representing RTG by the way or is it still in an unofficial capacity?
I have to give you credit for being here DogBoy even though we do disagree on most things - in particular weighting not being dynamic - because you have given a lot of useful information as well.
I have often invited MGS and Rival representatives to engage in debate over the fairness of their software but the silence has been deafening.

 

[DogBoy001]

Am I right in saying that it is not a package then but Casinos can order variants of individual games?
This would mean there could be a significant difference in RTP between not only different Casinos but in individual slots within a Casino?

Yes, slot variants can be selected on an individual basis.

Are you now officially representing RTG by the way or is it still in an unofficial capacity?

We're not part of RTG, we just supply quite a few games to RTG.
RTG are, however, aware that I engage in these debates and provide information on these forums to shed light on various issues.

Many of the games are in the land-based market as well, and having worked extensively with both land-based teams (including Bally) and RTG, the coding process is the same.
I know we disagree strongly on this, but dynamic components within the code to adjust RTP "on the fly" just aren't used in either case.

I have to give you credit for being here DogBoy even though we do disagree on most things - in particular weighting not being dynamic - because you have given a lot of useful information as well.
I have often invited MGS and Rival representatives to engage in debate over the fairness of their software but the silence has been deafening.

Thanks and no worries Rusty, I always enjoy our vigorous debates

Woooof