RTG and RTP - the official word

[4 of a kind]

I think there could be some changes on the horizon with online regulation.

The RTP report that Simmo linked us to earlier here was done by TST which was actually acquired by Gaming Laboratories Int. on May 4th, (which you could read all about on their web site.) I believe this acquisition was done to help strengthen GLI. By obtaining the additional resources held by TST, GLI is posturing themselves to become the major player when real regulation is imposed by real regulators. They already have the technology available to regulate online casinos in real time, as explained in my previous post here. Unfortunately the present fraud regulators /software providers will have none of that. (Where’s Dogears when you need him)

This is posted on GLI / TST’s Web Site:

With the growing trend in Europe to regulate iGaming on a country-by-country basis, regulators need a company they can rely on to provide the best testing services possible.

They no doubt are anticipating this to come about since in fact European Countries are presently in talks about real regulation. I’m also certain they hope the USA will eventually pass legislation and then also come on board.

The EU countries that legalized online gaming gave all these 3rd world countries plenty of time to get their act together and clean it up. Instead they brought online gaming to an all time low. I do understand there are some good and honest operators out there, but my trust and faith in other people instead of fact when it comes to my money, comes with a line in the sand.

I only hope my visions are correct here, and maybe soon we’ll be able to read every month like land casinos what the real RTP’s are.

What doesn’t surprise me (well maybe a little) is GLI openly admitting that online casino operators / software providers have the power to run tampered versions of games. Which confirms what I’ve been saying all along - with no regulation and no regulation enforcement why bother even playing?

In this post I’m only talking about cheating RTP’s, excluding all the other crap taking place online. Online gaming is in dire straits and never needed regulation more then it does now. People with power in this industry (advocates and affiliates) should be busy using their clout pushing regulation and stop shopping for bonuses to sign up more suckers.

I can't believe how many people here who you would think know better, are constantly talking about RTP's being in the 90's. Snap out of it...

 

[chuchu59]

OK question for you guys. I deposit $100 and get a $100 bonus. It comes with a 20x (D+B) WR. The final outcome is 95% RTP on reaching WRs. What balance have I got left?

 

[bryand]

I wonder whether these settings have included the 1.5% for contributions to the RJs.

I have been trying to make a broader point in other RTP threads. The question is: What is included in RTP besides actual slot line wins and random jackpots? Nothing else like comps and freebies? How can a casino return 95% to player and give comps and freebies, pay affiliates, give RTG a cut and pay overhead plus account for losses from fraud and chargebacks? The numbers don't add up to me.

 

[darkpixie]

I image it simplified thus:

Say you are betting $1 a spin. Every time you hit spin you pay the Casino 5 Cents. And 95 cents of that goes into the kitty to payout to players.

So deposit $100 make 100 spins at $1 each and the casino keeps $5 and theoretically you get $95

So now you have $95 make 95 spins, the casino keeps $4.75 and you are left with $90.25 and so on....

Continue on and you have paid the casino $100 or so whether you manage to cash out or not. This is especially true when you consider bonuses and wagering requirements. Consider that you have deposited $50 and gotten a $50 bonus with 20X play through of $2000. $2000 * 5cents is $100!!! The casino has just paid itself your $50 and you have generated income for them off that bonus removing the 5cents every spin from the overall payout!!!

It gets even juicier if for some reason they get to confiscate your winnings from regular play. No one every mentions where that money goes. (not referring to Random Jackpots here)

Makes me wish I owned a casino

Again this is just a theory I have, but if you think of it, its mathematically sound over the long run. I could put it in far more eloquent terms but its late and I am at work.

 

[KasinoKing]

OK question for you guys. I deposit $100 and get a $100 bonus. It comes with a 20x (D+B) WR. The final outcome is 95% RTP on reaching WRs. What balance have I got left?

You have exactly $0.
Unless it's a Phantom bonus, in which case you will have -$100...

KK

 

[chuchu59]

You have exactly $0.
Unless it's a Phantom bonus, in which case you will have -$100...

KK

Exactly KK. I just want to bring out a point that we could be experiencing an average RTP of 95% and not much lower as some people tend to believe. This could already kill you

 

[4 of a kind]

OK question for you guys. I deposit $100 and get a $100 bonus. It comes with a 20x (D+B) WR. The final outcome is 95% RTP on reaching WRs. What balance have I got left?

Let's say I deposit $2,000.00 dollars with no bonus. I never have a balance more then my deposit and only last 30 minutes playing $5.00 a hand before I go bust. I play a total of 610 hands.

What is my RTP???

 

[KasinoKing]

Let's say I deposit $2,000.00 dollars with no bonus. I never have a balance more then my deposit and only last 30 minutes playing $5.00 a hand before I go bust. I play a total of 610 hands.

What is my RTP???

34.42%.


(You wager $3050 and lose $2000, or in other words you wager $3050 and your return is $1050. 1050/3050x100 = 34.42%)

KK

 

[lost2much]

I just experimented with my Inet monthly bonus to see if anything has improved and guess what?? Received an $80 bonus, played at 40 to 60 cents per spin. I got less than ten features and only cleared $464 of the $1200 to win anything. This after being told by Alan (the CSR) that I should try to hit the cash out button more often. HAHAHAHA Alan, that really is funny!! HAHAHA, you know what is even funnier?? That my money won't be going to you guys....Isn't that hilarious?? HAHAHAHAHHAAHA!!! How funny is it now that my $750 in the last two weeks won't be coming in again in the next two weeks. HAHHAHAHA!! Don't worry Alan, I'm laughing at you (oops, I mean with you!!)

 

[Nifty29]

What is my RTP here:

I deposit $50

I wager about $500

I cashout $1250

= XX%??

(P.S. I hope its clear to everyone from this thread how dramatic the effect of taking a bonus can be on your ability to come out ahead. As KK will tell you, bonuses are only +EV up to a certain point - and even that doesnt gaurantee you will win. The common denominator in many cases of players not being able to cashout in 100 deposits etc is that they take bonuses, and that is a clue to changing your gambling behaviour in terms of making better bonus choices or just not taking them at all)

 

[KasinoKing]

What is my RTP here:

I deposit $50

I wager about $500

I cashout $1250

= XX%??

I don't know if you want me to answer this, as you obviously know I can.
Or whether you would like others to have a go... so I've hidden my reply!

Spoiler

Wager $500, win $1,200; RTP = 1200/500x100 = 240%

KK

 

[Nifty29]

Yup Thanks KK

It happened to me yesterday - nearly 3 times the advertised RTP.

So its quite plausible that sessions of 1/3 of RTP (i.e. 30%) can happen also... in fact, it almost has to otherwise the big wins cant happen.

AFAIK the RTP advertised includes the RJ contribution - so the base game is more like 93-94%.

All I know is that if I could find a land based gaming machine with an RTP of 90%+ near me I would be there in a flash. As it stands, the statutory RTP here in Australia is 84-86% depending on the area. Shame really, as there are 3000+ slot machines within 45 mins drive from my house.

 

[4 of a kind]

Yup Thanks KK

]It happened to me yesterday - nearly 3 times the advertised RTP.

So its quite plausible that sessions of 1/3 of RTP (i.e. 30%) can happen also... in fact, it almost has to otherwise the big wins cant happen.

AFAIK the RTP advertised includes the RJ contribution - so the base game is more like 93-94%.

All I know is that if I could find a land based gaming machine with an RTP of 90%+ near me I would be there in a flash. As it stands, the statutory RTP here in Australia is 84-86% depending on the area. Shame really, as there are 3000+ slot machines within 45 mins drive from my house.

Sometimes I wonder based on 100% of your posts here Nifty29, if your presence at this forum is nothing more then a hired shill in disguise to support online gaming rogue tactics in present use.

It happened to me yesterday - nearly 3 times the advertised RTP.

The fact that you had a session with results of winning three times the alleged advertised RTP mean nothing, and is nothing more then the saying that even a blind squirrel finds a nut. I’ve had winning sessions online in the past of 40 times my initial deposit amount of 1K. We’re talking about billions of dollars changing hands annually and even my winning session is nothing more then comparing a gallon of water against the Atlantic Ocean.

AFAIK the RTP advertised includes the RJ contribution - so the base game is more like 93-94%.

How in this statement did you conclude or why did you assume that the base game is more like 93-94%? Were you privy to reviewing actual technical software data you may not have mentioned? Should online gamers now play with confidence that this is fact because you say so?

All I know is that if I could find a land based gaming machine with an RTP of 90%+ near me I would be there in a flash. As it stands, the statutory RTP here in Australia is 84-86% depending on the area. Shame really, as there are 3000+ slot machines within 45 mins drive from my house.

I can’t speak for Australia, but here in the USA I could actually read in print the RTP’s confirmed by regulators monthly what they are before I even set foot in them. They may range anywhere from 85% minimum to over 100%. All machines are not set at one RTP, it’s the combined average of each denomination of all machines calculated that determine the overall RTP. Maybe your statement that all machines in Australia are set at a statutory 84-86%, are the minimum their allowed to be set at. How did you conclude that in fact all machines in Australia are at that setting? And for arguments sake lets say in fact they are all set at the lowest statutory percentage of 84%. If I know this is fact, then I have the unbiased privilege of making an upfront decision if I would want to risk my money at those odds.

As far as RTP settings presently being alleged for online gaming, they cannot be confirmed without reasonable doubt one way or the other. Nothing can be confirmed as fact what’s so ever in any shape or form when it comes to online gaming in its present condition.

Analysis of online RTP settings presently being printed from personally hired testing facilities by online casinos as fact is complete bullshit, and should be considered as being nothing more then bait and switch tactics by the online casinos. These online testing labs results may be fact but are only based on analyzing a compilation of selected data sent to them from the casinos. If they were testing the complete hard drive data on location I might have more respect for their conclusions. But without any real regulatory body in place with actual meaning or power, even that information would be up for debate.

Bryan's request here Quote:
On a side note - and I've mentioned this before - post a list of questions in a separate thread and I'll see what I can do putting together an FAQ of sorts. RTG, MGS, Wagerworks, etc.

Of course Bryan's intentions and efforts getting answers to questions we might have from assorted casino operators would be interesting. If questions were dedicated to rogue behavior such as rogue T&C's, payouts, etc.etc.etc., maybe some good could come out of it. At least we would let them know that everyone playing online is not a complete fool. Yet, technically meaningless if questions were directed towards games and software issues, since any answer would unfortunately just fall under the umbrella of reliable sources / trust & faith…

Under present conditions with online gaming, sites like Casinomiester provide the only option for players remotely of having a chance of getting a fair game. It’s a shame that Bryan and company and only the players that participate in forums like this combined are the only ones that can at least expose the known crooks that are stupid enough to get caught.

Remember if it wasn’t for the players that caught the online poker scandals, those sites would still be having their way with us. Those scandals were a perfect example of the online regulatory agencies that issued them their licenses at their best and evidence that they only exist by name.

If the EU nations do in fact impose real regulation country by country, what would happen to all these watch dog web sites? Would bonuses and the entire sticky rogue T&C’s be forced into the dumpster? Would affiliates turn to seeking out only high rollers?

If real regulation were to be put in place and all authorized online casinos were being forced to abide by the same rules, it would be interesting to compare the difference to what is being shoved down the throats of gamers that want to play online today with only trust and faith in getting a fair game.

CAN’T WAIT…..

 

[Nifty29]

Sometimes I wonder based on 100% of your posts here Nifty29, if your presence at this forum is nothing more then a hired shill in disguise to support online gaming rogue tactics in present use.

Wow, that is really pathetic. I must be the longest serving, highest paid shill in the business. So who is hiring me? RTG? A casino? An aff manager? Kermit The Frog???

Seriously, get a grip.

It happened to me yesterday - nearly 3 times the advertised RTP.

The fact that you had a session with results of winning three times the alleged advertised RTP mean nothing, and is nothing more then the saying that even a blind squirrel finds a nut. I’ve had winning sessions online in the past of 40 times my initial deposit amount of 1K. We’re talking about billions of dollars changing hands annually and even my winning session is nothing more then comparing a gallon of water against the Atlantic Ocean.

So, in the same way someone who loses 100 deposits in a row also means nothing? Actually, it shows that both situations CAN happen and WILL happen even when a game is 'fair'. I must admit to not really knowing what your point is here - except to shout down someone who is providing evidence contrary to your own.

AFAIK the RTP advertised includes the RJ contribution - so the base game is more like 93-94%.

How in this statement did you conclude or why did you assume that the base game is more like 93-94%? Were you privy to reviewing actual technical software data you may not have mentioned? Should online gamers now play with confidence that this is fact because you say so?

Before I go on - AFAIK = means As Far As I Know. I didnt say it was gospel and I didnt say I was privy to anything (except the information provided by Dogboy who actually IS privy to such information....although Im sure he is just another shill....). At no time did I say this was a fact.

However, based on what information we DO have courtesy of some casino managers over the years and Dogboy, the statement I made is pretty accurate IMO. It has been stated that the RJ contribution is from 1-2% of RTP i.e. that 1-2% of RTP is NOT actually being returned to the player but being placed in the RJ pool. Therefore, the actual RTP you experience is 1-2% less than the set RTP of the game (unless you win the RJ of course)

Maybe your statement that all machines in Australia are set at a statutory 84-86%, are the minimum their allowed to be set at. How did you conclude that in fact all machines in Australia are at that setting? And for arguments sake lets say in fact they are all set at the lowest statutory percentage of 84%.

Well for a start it is posted on the machines in most venues, but the following information is publicly available:

The minimum legislative requirement for Return to Player is as follows:

NSW VIC SA QLD QLD Casinos WA ACT TAS NT NT Casinos NZ NZ Casinos


85% 87% 87.50% 85% 90% 90% 85% 85% 85% 88% 78% 87%

So, actually, you got me there. It is higher than I remember but there have been amendments to the Act over the past few years and I havent been so wouldnt know.

Considering that out of the 100% that goes in, approx 4% goes the machine owner (machines are not owned by the venues), 4% to the Government and 4% to the venue itself, it doesnt take a maths teacher to figure out what the RTP is set at. (n.b. Im talking about Victoria my state and the profit distribution varies by state as some states allow the venue to own the machine)

If real regulation were to be put in place and all authorized online casinos were being forced to abide by the same rules, it would be interesting to compare the difference to what is being shoved down the throats of gamers that want to play online today with only trust and faith in its present form.

CAN’T WAIT…..

Well its kinda the point I was making that along with regulation comes cost. Operators wont just be able to get away with paying the software provider and a flimsy licence fee in god-knows-where...they will have to pay a nice slice of the RTP to the Government PLUS a licence fee PLUS software fees.....and of course those who end up in front will be liable for taxes in the USA. You may also find that your choice of software is restricted to 'certified providers' and even 'certified owners' the variety and choice you have today may disappear.

Of course, there will still be a way to play offshore and you can bet some of them will be offering some pretty attractive sweeteners to get your play.

All Im saying is that while regulation will mean no more payout problems etc, (although Ive never had that problem anywhere but thats another issue), and will mean the player has legislative protection, is also has its pitfalls in terms of what you have in your hand at the end of the day. One thing you can bet on is that the US Gov and the casino monopolies will take as much money off players as they can get away with - and you can take that one to the bank.

 

[4 of a kind]

Well its kinda the point I was making that along with regulation comes cost. Operators wont just be able to get away with paying the software provider and a flimsy licence fee in god-knows-where...they will have to pay a nice slice of the RTP to the Government PLUS a licence fee PLUS software fees.....and of course those who end up in front will be liable for taxes in the USA. You may also find that your choice of software is restricted to 'certified providers' and even 'certified owners' the variety and choice you have today may disappear.



One thing you can bet on is that the US Gov and the casino monopolies will take as much money off players as they can get away with - and you can take that one to the bank.

I don't care what the costs are for the casinos to operate on the up and up. As long as I could read factual RTP settings at least I'll be in a position to make an educated decision and except my outcome as being fair.

As far as paying taxes on winnings, when I'm in a land casino that problem is always a welcomed one. Unfortunately, in most cases during any given year my losses exceed my winnings and result in not paying anything.

In response to your last comment stating that "US Gov. and casino monopolies will take as much money off players as they can get away with", are you insinuating that online casinos don't? The whole premise of operating a casino is to extract all the money they can from people, with the rare hopes of riches. And the few that do strike it big, that money certainly didn't come from the casinos pockets. At least with regulation in place the process of extracting ones money is done legally and with protection. A lot better then getting mugged in cyberspace.

Every player should know up front what their getting into before eventually and inevitably finding out if they could afford the risk. Trust and faith don't carry much weight when gambling is involved.

 

[Simmo!]

Sometimes I wonder based on 100% of your posts here Nifty29, if your presence at this forum is nothing more then a hired shill in disguise to support online gaming rogue tactics in present use.

Quite what insulting someone achieves in the context of this debate is beyond me. Please debate sensibly or not at all.

 

[4 of a kind]

Quite what insulting someone achieves in the context of this debate is beyond me. Please debate sensibly or not at all.

Please except my apologies for letting my emotions overrule logic.

I'm sorry Nifty29........

 

[takethemoney]

If the 97% setting truely exists for RTG, why wouldn't some of your larger reputable casinos like Rushmore group set it there then advertise the hell out of it? They could get the lions share of the business, especially in a down economy where some casinos are struggling to survive.

And, btw, does anyone know a casino where the slots are set at 97%?

 

[4 of a kind]

And, btw, does anyone know a casino where the slots are set at 97%?

I could show you what the RTP's settings are with land based casinos in the USA, here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/b-m-payouts.36710/

As far as online goes my guess would have to be considered as good as anyone else, and I would have to guess around 80% today on the optimistic side.

I also find it strange that a testing lab (GLI) admits there are proven technologies that could ensure that only approved versions are running live, openly admitting that online casinos have the ability to run illegal unapproved programs, and not one seasoned casino rep, affiliate or advocate have a word to say about that.

When all these advocates, affiliates, and casino reps. stay clear of a thread, (although actively reading it) usually is an indication of not having a leg to stand on in defense and will just stay on the sidelines waiting for the thread to fade away.

Amusing when their credibility is being challenged with irrefutable justification, there just no where to be found. Even Dogears pulled out of here sensing the heat was to much to take.

 

[takethemoney]

I could show you what the RTP's settings are with land based casinos in the USA, here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/b-m-payouts.36710/

As far as online goes my guess would have to be considered as good as anyone else, and I would have to guess around 80% today on the optimistic side.

I also find it strange that a testing lab (GLI) admits there are proven technologies that could ensure that only approved versions are running live, openly admitting that online casinos have the ability to run illegal unapproved programs, and not one seasoned casino rep, affiliate or advocate have a word to say about that.

When all these advocates, affiliates, and casino reps. stay clear of a thread, (although actively reading it) usually is an indication of not having a leg to stand on in defense and will just stay on the sidelines waiting for the thread to fade away.

Amusing when their credibility is being challenged with irrefutable justification, there just no where to be found. Even Dogears pulled out of here sensing the heat was to much to take.

There are trade secrets that will go to the grave. I don't believe the settings are as advertised, but nobody has absolute irrefutible truth, only our own gut to go by, which, if you are experienced, you just know. I think the casinos have some bonus settings too, like a method of breaking a hot player's stride. We'll probably never know, unless someone tackles the task of analysing 100s of millions of spins.

 

[4 of a kind]

There are trade secrets that will go to the grave. I don't believe the settings are as advertised, but nobody has absolute irrefutible truth, only our own gut to go by, which, if you are experienced, you just know. I think the casinos have some bonus settings too, like a method of breaking a hot player's stride. We'll probably never know, unless someone tackles the task of analysing 100s of millions of spins.

The bottom line remains that a computer is just a computer.

com•put•er
Also called processor. an electronic device designed to accept data, perform prescribed mathematical and logical operations at high speed, and display the results of these operations.


It will do whatever it’s programmed to do. Does anyone here realize how many different technicians actually have access to the assorted software’s being used for online casinos?
Just like the exposed poker scandal which was nothing more then adding a few lines of corrupt data to view other player’s cards. Or just like Ron Harris a technician who added a few lines of corrupt data to hit slot machine jackpots in Las Vegas. Of course as a result of that particular case with Ron Harris, casino regulators put in place additional regulations to try and prevent it in the future, backed up with serious penalties.

Maybe the select few of whale online casino players who seem to be hitting time and time again ridicules Jackpot after another, and are gambling like they own all the oil in the middle east, are just colluding with a connected rogue technician. If real regulation comes about and happens, it would be interesting to see if that list of the same big name constant winners always in the top ten, month after month stay the same.

Although the above may be to the extreme, it is possible. The casino operators might not even be aware of rogue data since it all could simply be done by the software providers themselves, keeping them out of the loop.

GLI obviously is aware and admits that rogue software could be used by online casinos. Until online regulation is put in place and enforced by law, every single platform offered by online casinos, acquired the rights to be open for interpretation, ridicule, and doubt.

On a different view let's say a casino operator wants to prove to all of us that in fact their giving us a fair game. Funny thing about this is where could a straight up operator possibly go for this confirmation? There's nothing in place where they could even get confirmed. I wonder if the gaming regulators in the USA are limited to certain jurisdictions.


Personally the more I go on with these discussions of probabilities the sicker this whole thing is making me.

 

[takethemoney]

The bottom line remains that a computer is just a computer.

com•put•er
Also called processor. an electronic device designed to accept data, perform prescribed mathematical and logical operations at high speed, and display the results of these operations.


It will do whatever it’s programmed to do. Does anyone here realize how many different technicians actually have access to the assorted software’s being used for online casinos?
Just like the exposed poker scandal which was nothing more then adding a few lines of corrupt data to view other player’s cards. Or just like Ron Harris a technician who added a few lines of corrupt data to hit slot machine jackpots in Las Vegas. Of course as a result of that particular case with Ron Harris, casino regulators put in place additional regulations to try and prevent it in the future, backed up with serious penalties.

Maybe the select few of whale online casino players who seem to be hitting time and time again ridicules Jackpot after another, and are gambling like they own all the oil in the middle east, are just colluding with a connected rogue technician. If real regulation comes about and happens, it would be interesting to see if that list of the same big name constant winners always in the top ten, month after month stay the same.

Although the above may be to the extreme, it is possible. The casino operators might not even be aware of rogue data since it all could simply be done by the software providers themselves, keeping them out of the loop.

GLI obviously is aware and admits that rogue software could be used by online casinos. Until online regulation is put in place and enforced by law, every single platform offered by online casinos, acquired the rights to be open for interpretation, ridicule, and doubt.

On a different view let's say a casino operator wants to prove to all of us that in fact their giving us a fair game. Funny thing about this is where could a straight up operator possibly go for this confirmation? There's nothing in place where they could even get confirmed. I wonder if the gaming regulators in the USA are limited to certain jurisdictions.


Personally the more I go on with these discussions of probabilities the sicker this whole thing is making me.

Which brings up one of my questions again, which has never been answered or I have missed it. Who has care, custody and control of the computer servers where the casino software resides? I think that's an important question because if you want to maintain absolute fairness, you have to make sure the code stored on the servers cannot be rewritten to contain a gaff. So, who's watching over this..... or better yet, who's watching over who's watching over this? Is the Fox allowed in the Hen house?

 

[Casinomeister]

I could show you what the RTP's settings are with land based casinos in the USA, here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/b-m-payouts.36710/
...

Thanks for that - I missed that posting. Good info!

If the 97% setting truely exists for RTG, why wouldn't some of your larger reputable casinos like Rushmore group set it there then advertise the hell out of it? They could get the lions share of the business, especially in a down economy where some casinos are struggling to survive.

Please keep in mind that to change the RTP, they (the casino operator) would have to request this from RealTime Gaming. I'm not sure that RTG would consider marketing 97% slots as a legitimate reason to make a change. In fact, they may look at that as being too risky. Just a thought.

 

[chuchu59]

OK so casinos with settings at 97.5% should be accredited, 95% good to go and those at 91.5% should be stuck with warnings eg proceed with care/caution.

 

[takethemoney]

OK so casinos with settings at 97.5% should be accredited, 95% good to go and those at 91.5% should be stuck with warnings eg proceed with care/caution.

I like this idea. You are a genius!