rtg and max payout cap

pinkfloyd

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Location
aus
seen a few good screenies lately from rtg ,tho even tho they are nice wins both players should have got way more due to max payout cap.

i think in both of them 12500 should have been 30000 and 1000 should have been 4000

i dont have a rtg installed but im trying to work out

is it possible to hit a rtg advertised payout for 5 wilds or top prize during a feature ?
or is it just blatant false advertising ?

if it is the latter , why would you want to play at a casino where you know if you hit big you cant actually hit whats advertised , especially during a feature ?

i mean if a site advertised "one million dollar jackpot " and had maxpayout as 10000 coins we would be up in arms with pitchforks and torches , yet time and time again we see people not get paid whats advertised on rtg and are happy that their win was "good enough anyway"

thats my 2 cents **


** terms and conditions max payout of 2 cents capped at 1 cent between the hours of 12:01 and 11:59
 

Zoozie

Ueber Meister
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Location
Denmark
There is a whole thread in which the subject you bring up has been discussed seriously in several threads. Check

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/online-casinos/42671-real-time-gaming-capping-max-wins.html

and
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums...watched-free-spins-today-1-5-hours-bodog.html

The short version is that for "Rain Dance" it really does make sense to have this cap, or the slot would never be able to offer 100 freespins (5 scatters) with retriggers (only 3 scatters) for another 100 freespins. It would simply have payout over 100% because of the massive wins from 5 scatters with the current paytable.
For "Count Spectacular" it also seems a to be a fair rule or 5*wild payout must
be reduced drastically. But for most other RTG slots I do not see the reason for the maximum payout!

I found it very interesting that the maximum pay is calculated from LINE BET for each line. Which means that play 1line at 1c for a total of 1c you will have the same
maximum win as playing 20 lines at 1c for a total of 20c. When I play Rain Dance I
always only play 5 lines... Still havent hit the 5 scatters though.
 

pinkfloyd

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Location
aus
hi yer i know its been discussed a bit , i guess those last 2 big hits and especially the 5 scattered stacked crown screenshot got me irked up a bit.

i guess im wondering why people still bother playing these sites when the advertised paytable is null and void. i guess i should have made the heading why do people still play rtg with a cap .


could u imagine walking into casino , putting $1 on no 21 on roulette , it comes up and the cashier hands over $20 and says sorry sir/madame we have a max cap of 20 lol
 

Nate

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
Cyberspace
This is exactly what I do not get:

You are allowed to play at the Maximum and Lose. You are not allowed to Win the Maximum.

You are allowed to deposit as much as you like. You are not allowed to cash out as much as you like...

Remains true for RTG...

Nate
 

asghan

Experienced Member
PABaccred
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Location
Poland
This whole max cap rule makes that I avoid playing Lucky Tiger. With 88 lines there is only 568 max per bet, that really sucks for high variance slot like Lucky Tiger. How this rule affects Lucky Tiger RTP?
 

loren

Experienced Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Location
vancouver island
There is a whole thread in which the subject you bring up has been discussed seriously in several threads. Check

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/online-casinos/42671-real-time-gaming-capping-max-wins.html

and
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums...watched-free-spins-today-1-5-hours-bodog.html

The short version is that for "Rain Dance" it really does make sense to have this cap, or the slot would never be able to offer 100 freespins (5 scatters) with retriggers (only 3 scatters) for another 100 freespins. It would simply have payout over 100% because of the massive wins from 5 scatters with the current paytable.
For "Count Spectacular" it also seems a to be a fair rule or 5*wild payout must
be reduced drastically. But for most other RTG slots I do not see the reason for the maximum payout!

I found it very interesting that the maximum pay is calculated from LINE BET for each line. Which means that play 1line at 1c for a total of 1c you will have the same
maximum win as playing 20 lines at 1c for a total of 20c. When I play Rain Dance I
always only play 5 lines... Still havent hit the 5 scatters though.

thanks for the post
 

Stovetopp

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Location
On the Beach
Zooie I dont know what massive payout in Raindance you are speaking of.

Couple weeks ago I got the 5 scatters for 100 freespins. Well after a long day I had 1100 free spins I had to call and ask what to do since I had to run out with about 700 spins to go. But at the end of the day, after at least 1100 free spins and playing 80 cents per spin all I won was about 1200 bucks That sucks.

Couple years ago I did get 5 scatter but that was within a 3catter free spin. I did not get 100 free spin and brought it up here and Doggiboy was kind enough to explain the rules to me
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
The effect of max cap is less than 1% of total RTP on most games.

It supports two points of view:

1. Why have the cap if the effect is so small?

2. Why should players complain when the effect is so small?

Both are valid based on the information above.
 

kidice

Experienced Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2011
Location
Carmichael, CA
yeppers, those were my crowns, pinkfloyd. reducing ones bet amount doesn't help increase payback percentage- it's 50,000x line bet maximum; however, reducing the number of lines bet does enable a player to realize the max return without sacrificing payback percentage (In my case 5 lines). The part that really steams me is the fact i lost my remaining feature spins, and I still had most to play, when the rule states 50,000 x bet per spin. Apparently, 10 free feature spins means only 1 spin with nine payable breaks in between. :what:

As for why I play RTG slots? well, in my opinion RTG software is the most entertaining available. another reason- I'm from USA. Every slot has a unique personality and provides chance for handsome returns on any spin. The big payouts seem to be quite random and I've hit big on back to back spins often enough to support that. I've had long azz dry spells too, but after a big hit, I don't feel compelled to quit playing the slot. Other software seems to go consistently dry after hitting big.

That covers the software side of RTG. Conversely, I'm ready to give up on RTG permanently due to their (mis)management policies, such as continuing to allow rogue operators to fleece unsuspecting players. By not taking action against these casinos, they become part of it. It stands to follow that through patronage, I contribute to the problem as well.

* unique experience. your experience may be different. casino playing involves risk of loss. Kidice LLC makes no claims and any return on investment is neither expressed nor implied. Not FDIC insured. Always seek the advice of a professional before investing.
 

De Beuker

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Location
Netherlands
The effect of max cap is less than 1% of total RTP on most games.

It supports two points of view:

1. Why have the cap if the effect is so small?

2. Why should players complain when the effect is so small?

Both are valid based on the information above.

The effect on the total RTP of the game may be small, but it is that part of the RTP that you can actually cashout.
By far the biggest part of a games RTP is in the lower wins, the small ones that just keep you going but wont get you anywhere.
And when you finally hit that monstah, you only get paid a part of what it should pay..:(

So the effect may be small for the the games total payout, but an individual player will still feel kinda screwed..
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
The effect on the total RTP of the game may be small, but it is that part of the RTP that you can actually cashout.
By far the biggest part of a games RTP is in the lower wins, the small ones that just keep you going but wont get you anywhere.
And when you finally hit that monstah, you only get paid a part of what it should pay..:(

So the effect may be small for the the games total payout, but an individual player will still feel kinda screwed..

I agree.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
RTG is trying to hide behind the excuse 'effect is less than 1 % rtp' because the question as to why there is a max cap remains unanswered. I think this is for the protection of smaller operators with a small player base who just require one or two 'lucky players' to send them tumbling down. Commercially speaking, they are doing the right thing in protecting their clients just as they were involved in dubious operations like 'safebet', 'hastings' and 'cds' although these are even more ethically wrong. This gives rise to suspicions that rtg will do all in their power to secretly lower the rtp of all games. Actually, I can see no reason why wins should be capped especially when we are talking of high-variance games where the accumulated losses by a majority of players should more than cover the wins of a precious few.
 

refre

Senior lurker
PABnonaccred
PABnoaccred
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Location
.
Greatly put by De Beuker!
Edit: And chuchu too ;)

I have a feeling this cap was put in place to protect casinos on a tight budget.
You know, the ones with maximum withdrawal of $X,000.00 per week or month.

But still they gladly offer stakes of up to $125 or more per spin. Go figure.

A wise rep once told me, when I asked about the (relatively) low bet limits at their casino, that they wanted to make sure that they would be able to pay every win in a timely fashion. They have since raised their limits, still pay fast though lol.

Freddy
 

Papa-ya

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Location
USA
One of the things that having a max cap rule creates is an obsessive compulsive behavior in some players, I have been experiencing this, so this is why I say it.
In all the discussion of the max capping, I have come to the conclusion that it won't matter what anyone thinks of the double paytable rule where one voids the other.
It's obvious to me this secondary rule is to minimize RTG's loses from games they create that have the potential for monsterous wins and I really don't have a problem with the casinos protecting themselves from to many massive wins.
But they create the game with the first payout rule as an enticement to this potential big payday mindset as the players will see it. They know this is how players will perceive the game will payout, so it is a false and misleading payout rule in the first place when there is a secondary rule added on the second page at the very bottom.

Okay fine, now I understand how it works, since having hit the five Counts during the 4 re-spin feature and the win was $499.85 as I had already won 0.15 cents on the first spin. The four re-spins counted as one spin so if I had already won say $300, the counts would have only paid $200, playing at the 0.01 cent bet per line.

Another poster suggested playing at less lines in order to acheive what the win should have been and I have been doing that ever since my 5 count win dissapointment. But what I have been seeing playing from 5-10 lines at 0.05 to 0.10 bet per line is that the majority of wins will nearly always be on all the lines you are not playing and the counts will become so rare, that one would think they have been removed. In playing less lines, you have to choose them in numbered order and can't pick the lines you want, thus limiting the ability to have a choice in what lines you want to play. I have been playing like this several times a week for the last few months and have to say that if you use a different strategy, the game seems to create a different strategy to adjust to yours, so to speak. I know this is an rtp configuration, but is it automatic when you change how you play? That's why I would like a better understanding on the mechanics of rtp per individual game versus overall.

If RTG truly wanted to offer a game with no deception then as one poster stated, they should just change the paytables, thus having one paytable rule and not two.
They also should consider if they are going to continue to cap wins, to just cap what the highest amount a game will payout in total and not penalize the low rollers for having that one grand win.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
One of the things that having a max cap rule creates is an obsessive compulsive behavior in some players, I have been experiencing this, so this is why I say it.
In all the discussion of the max capping, I have come to the conclusion that it won't matter what anyone thinks of the double paytable rule where one voids the other.
It's obvious to me this secondary rule is to minimize RTG's loses from games they create that have the potential for monsterous wins and I really don't have a problem with the casinos protecting themselves from to many massive wins.
But they create the game with the first payout rule as an enticement to this potential big payday mindset as the players will see it. They know this is how players will perceive the game will payout, so it is a false and misleading payout rule in the first place when there is a secondary rule added on the second page at the very bottom.

Okay fine, now I understand how it works, since having hit the five Counts during the 4 re-spin feature and the win was $499.85 as I had already won 0.15 cents on the first spin. The four re-spins counted as one spin so if I had already won say $300, the counts would have only paid $200, playing at the 0.01 cent bet per line.

Another poster suggested playing at less lines in order to acheive what the win should have been and I have been doing that ever since my 5 count win dissapointment. But what I have been seeing playing from 5-10 lines at 0.05 to 0.10 bet per line is that the majority of wins will nearly always be on all the lines you are not playing and the counts will become so rare, that one would think they have been removed. In playing less lines, you have to choose them in numbered order and can't pick the lines you want, thus limiting the ability to have a choice in what lines you want to play. I have been playing like this several times a week for the last few months and have to say that if you use a different strategy, the game seems to create a different strategy to adjust to yours, so to speak. I know this is an rtp configuration, but is it automatic when you change how you play? That's why I would like a better understanding on the mechanics of rtp per individual game versus overall.

If RTG truly wanted to offer a game with no deception then as one poster stated, they should just change the paytables, thus having one paytable rule and not two.
They also should consider if they are going to continue to cap wins, to just cap what the highest amount a game will payout in total and not penalize the low rollers for having that one grand win.

1. What "double rule" are you talking about? The paytable contains the amount paid for each combination, limited only by the capped winnings rule. I don't see two "rules" anywhere.

2. The way RTP is changed in RTG slots is by adding or removing symbols. You are suggesting the slot is "adjusting" to the bet you are using, using the fact that you "don't see as many counts" as usual as your basis. Unless you have some kind of data collected over time, then it doesn't really hold water.

3. You say that "the majority of wins will nearly always be on all the lines you are not playing". Well of course they are......you are playing 5 or 10 lines on a 25 line machine i.e. you aren't even covering half the payout possibilities....so you will most definitely see more wins on other lines.

4. The slot does not "change it's RTP settings" to match your strategy - it doesn't have to, as you are increasing the variance by playing less lines. It is this that most probably makes it appear that the slot has "changed". Playing less lines means less line wins, but when you do win they are bigger....and of course so is the max cap. If players are going to employ this strategy they have to accept that the "play" will be different and they will not have the same hit frequency as playing all lines.

5. Your OCD or whatever you described is not created by RTG or the games. If it stated at the top "Win 1,000,000 coins!!! PLay now!!" and then had a max cap rule of 500,000 at the bottom I could understand.....but it doesn't. A player's behaviour is their own responsibility IMO.
 

Papa-ya

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Location
USA
1. What "double rule" are you talking about? The paytable contains the amount paid for each combination, limited only by the capped winnings rule. I don't see two "rules" anywhere.

2. The way RTP is changed in RTG slots is by adding or removing symbols. You are suggesting the slot is "adjusting" to the bet you are using, using the fact that you "don't see as many counts" as usual as your basis. Unless you have some kind of data collected over time, then it doesn't really hold water.

3. You say that "the majority of wins will nearly always be on all the lines you are not playing". Well of course they are......you are playing 5 or 10 lines on a 25 line machine i.e. you aren't even covering half the payout possibilities....so you will most definitely see more wins on other lines.

4. The slot does not "change it's RTP settings" to match your strategy - it doesn't have to, as you are increasing the variance by playing less lines. It is this that most probably makes it appear that the slot has "changed". Playing less lines means less line wins, but when you do win they are bigger....and of course so is the max cap. If players are going to employ this strategy they have to accept that the "play" will be different and they will not have the same hit frequency as playing all lines.

5. Your OCD or whatever you described is not created by RTG or the games. If it stated at the top "Win 1,000,000 coins!!! PLay now!!" and then had a max cap rule of 500,000 at the bottom I could understand.....but it doesn't. A player's behaviour is their own responsibility IMO.


1. On page one of the payout table of Count Spectacular for instance, the counts for 5 lined up is said to pay 10000 x bet per line, at the bottom of page 2, it has the cap win rule.
Thus perceived as a double rule where one voids the other.

2. I wasn't actually meaning to "suggest", it but it seems that way, was asking if it does adjust as the mechanics of the rtp is sometimes hard to understand, especially when playing less lines.

3. Agree

4. That's what I was asking, thank you.

5. Again, there is the first page payout rule and second page has the additional rule at the bottom.

Thank you for your response.

Additional note, the OCD is because I would like to see the 5 count hit one day while playing 5 lines at 0.10 bet per line, nothing strange about that.
 

Cleveland

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Location
Texas
Question: Does all of this mean that if you are playing 25 lines @ .01 bet per line the most you can win outside of actually hitting a jackpot would be $ 500.00?

So would that mean spinning with hopes of actually hitting that :eek: amount will never happened unless you're betting more than .01 per line or you hit a jackpot?

edit: I think i understand now....
 

kidice

Experienced Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2011
Location
Carmichael, CA
The effect of max cap is less than 1% of total RTP on most games.


One percent is huge!- Particularly if youre a long term kinda player. I'm constantly exploring for a half percent here, a quarter percent there. Haven't found any yet (exception: tournaments) but I'm always lookin! Unfortunately i keep discovering ways I'm getting a fraction of a percent taken away, and then tryin to plug the leak. I know, it's the same- just depends on perspective.

Agreed Nifty, the player bears the burden of reading the fine print. Even when it's slipped in at the end of the last page as a: "oh... by the way.....there's just this little max payout thing we forgot to mention back where it would seem appropriate...."

We can be sure of this: If the max cap rule wasn't in place, RTG would get that money another way.

To Papa-ya: I feel your frustration with the 5 line play and the seemingly missed payouts. Rest assured, your percentages should not change and if anything, they'll improve- providing you hit that capped payout that would have been exceeded by playing more lines. Those missed payouts most likely would never have happened if you played max coins anyways. a zero pay is a zero pay is my thinking here. (it's doubtful that's accurate, but it's a comforting way to think of it)

Cleveland: yeah, that seems to be about the jist of it. 50,000 times line bet on Realm of riches, for example, no matter how you get there. This applies to ALL the spins in total during a feature, at least on my win anyways. RJ pays in full- you prolly won't COLLECT it in full, but it'll pay in full!
 
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