Royalvegas confiscated 8000 Euros - fraudulent claim

[rampaco3]

Before I play at any casino I check in the Casinomeister to see if the casino in the Rogue list.

I can see they are now there but I don't remember they were there when I played, could it be or am I dreaming ? I played duringSeptember. The rougue list cotain coule of sections so I might have missed it but I could not remember it was there.



They confiscated the winnings for now reason. They referred me to a term that concerned pattern of play they were not happy about.

I did play in a an aggressive pattern but this is the way I like to play.

Not only that, they lied to Ecogra knowing that game pattern won't be enough in order not to pay a winner.

While they told me the reason was a specified term (mentioned in the email they sent) , they told Ecogra that I have multiple accounts.


I have only a single account in Royalvegas, having a multiple account is a totally different term that they never mentioned before but did mentioned that to Ecogra

The sad story is that Ecogra probably does not check and does not care and just believe the casino in a case they decided to take for themselves legitimate winnings.

in a nutshell you can see the story thru the emails:

This is what they told me, it is so easy to find the big lie to ecogra and ecogra to me


Hi L



Thank you for your e-mail.



Leonidas your winnings were forfeit as they were generated from prohibited play, for bonus play through purposes, which is in contravention with the Terms listed in the Casinos Terms and Conditions.



More specifically your play has been found to be in contravention with Term 27. For your reference I have included both the Term itself and the URL to all of our Terms.



Outdated URL (Invalid)



27. Before any withdrawals are processed, your play will be reviewed for any irregular playing patterns e.g. playing of equal, zero margin bets or hedge betting, which all shall be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes.
Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance, where the majority of that balance is made up of bonus balance. The Casino reserves the right to decide in its sole discretion which activities constitute irregular play for bonus play-through requirement purposes from time-to-time and to withhold any cash-ins where irregular play has occurred to meet bonus play-through requirements.



Leonidas the decision to refer this matter to ECOGRA is yours to make, but I can assure you that we are acting within the parameters set out by ECOGRA. We are confident that we have acted appropriately and are willing to justify our actions to ECOGRA if necessary.



Our stance remains, your purchase amount will be returned and the winnings have been seized by our Player Security Company.



Kind regards



John



Floor Manager


And this is what ecogra told me, totally different reason.

Ecogra also lied saying they checked, if they had checked they would have found the truth.

Dear L,



We have investigated your query with the casino and have made the following findings;



Your account has been linked to a number of other accounts at the casino through identifiers.


We have reviewed these identifiers and are satisfied that the operator has acted according to their Terms and Conditions in locking your account at <Approved Site>. For security reasons we are not at liberty to disclose the nature of the identifiers.



The casino has refunded your initial deposit of 100 to your NETeller account on the 26th of September 07.



Bearing the above in mind I must inform you that we find your dispute to be invalid.



Regards,

Tex Rees

 

[Casinomeister]

Let me guess, you placed a single bet with your entire balance on VP, BJ, or slots.

Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance, where the majority of that balance is made up of bonus balance. The Casino reserves the right to decide in its sole discretion which activities constitute irregular play for bonus play-through requirement purposes from time-to-time and to withhold any cash-ins where irregular play has occurred to meet bonus play-through requirements.

These rules were there when you signed up, and by accepting the bonus you agreed to these rules. You should have not taken the bonus.

The sad story is that Ecogra probably does not check and does not care and just believe the casino in a case they decided to take for themselves legitimate winnings.

Sorry, but this is far from the truth. They are privy to the casino records. If fraudulent activity has been detected - then that's about it.

My guess is that you probably don't have more than one account, but you are sharing your computer (or identity) with other users. Do you share your computer with anyone else?

 

[rampaco3]

the casino said the reason was game pattern then ecogra said multiple accounts or shared computer, don't U see the discrepancy?

I don't share any information in my computer.

Second point. This kind of term that says, the casino reserve the right to decide what game pattern is something he likes AFTER play and what game pattern he does not like is not acceptible and was not acceptible for years.

Using these terms casinos did very bad things like not paying a whole country in the past.

Look what the term says

The Casino reserves the right to decide in its sole discretion which activities constitute irregular play for bonus play-through requirement purposes from time-to-time and to withhold any cash-ins where irregular play has occurred to meet bonus play-through requirements


how can you support such a term , even if I accept it and then the casino decide to confiscate winnings, it is bad bad bad.

Having multiple account is totally different, it is you trying to steal bonuses you are not deserve.

I played 200 a hand each hand I played and I PLAYED TRI CARD POKER.

The reason I played 200 a hand is because this was the max allowed and not because i wanted to use the deposit and bonus in a single hand.

Think about it, am I stupid or what ? why would I bet the deposit and bonus if I came to take advantge of the bonus ? Isn't it better to grind it in better games like Videopoker or Blackjack as you said using their autoplay betting small.

Even I wanted to be aggressive and take advantage of their bonus why would I continue to bet high after I win, isn't obvious that after I win I reduce the bet to make sure I am cashing out big.

I played the SAME each hand not raising and not decreasing the bet.

Again the reason it was 200 is because it was the max bet allowed.

I like to bet max hands if it is up to 2000 a hand, this is th way I play.


They can't tell me at the promo page, any game you wish to play , feel free to play and then after you play it they send you to a term that says, if you do that but not limited to this certain "that", and we might do that if we decide, this is again very bad and actually not a casino behaviour but a rgue operatin behaviour that should not be protected by any honest person.


Reg Ecogra, I am not exaggerating, they know thwy haven't checked.

The casino also know that, if not how can you explain the two different reasons mentioned for the no pay ???

 

[Stanford]

the casino said the reason was game pattern...

...how can you support such a term , even if I accept it and then the casino decide to confiscate winnings, it is bad bad bad....

rampaco3,

The industry is hurting with the loss of US players. Casinos are going to be running gambits to pull in players, but they are also going to be looking for reasons not to pay off. You really have to be careful.

If you are sharing your computer, there isn't much you can do. You will look like a fraudster. Assuming you are not a fraudster, you still have to be careful. Very careful.

Look at this rule:

“16. For any wager made, the wager is deducted from your Cash Balance first. If there is no cash available, then the wager is deducted from the Bonus Balance. This effectively means that credits in the Player's bonus balance are only played if there is no cash balance. “

If I read this correctly, all the lost money comes off your cash first. Only after you lose all your cash do you get to the bonus money.

Then you have:

“27. Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance, where the majority of that balance is made up of bonus balance. The Casino reserves the right to decide in its sole discretion which activities constitute “irregular play” for bonus play-through requirement purposes from time-to-time and to withhold any cash-ins where irregular play has occurred to meet bonus play-through requirements.”

To tell you the truth, I don’t know what rule 27 even means in light of rule 16. I guess you have to make smaller and smaller wagers. At some point, you may not have anything but bonus money left. So you make a $50 bet and most of that is bonus money and that is irregular play – I guess. Who knows?

And you aren’t supposed to know. That’s what all that “sole discretion” mumbo jumbo is about.

If anyone wants to play this promo, PM me and we can discuss a strategy. You will need a big bankroll because you need to play this with some variance. But even if you score, you still might not get paid. Irregular play is just code for bonus abuse which is just code for smart play. This promo with its escape clauses is the Internet version of 3 Card Monti.

Last time in LV I watched a guy running 3 Card Monti on the sidewalk. One guy won to make it look legit. He was the accomplice. But the others lost at $100 a pop. That’s what this promo is like. And eCOGRA? – that would be the accomplice. Like FL told you, eCOGRA isn’t going to care. They are just there to make the game look legit.

Really, my advice is to learn to play poker. You won’t get scammed and it is a lot more fun. And if you want to play at a casino – don’t pick Fortune Lounge. And if your play is smart, don’t be surprised if the casino reneges. You are not really suppose to win you know.

Stanford.

 

[gmblpdam]

Casinomeister,
Why is it that you instantly jump on the back of the casinos? Especially a BS operation like Fortune Lounge. You are saying that he abused the bonus betting 200 a hand on 3CP? When he runs his balance all the way up to 8000 on a 100 bonus, how can he be abusing the bonus? He was clearly just doing some high stakes gambling, and that would seem like just the kind of person a casino would want playing at their operation. What isn't bonus abuse? Betting .25 a hand on keno until your balance is dwindled away? Or is that still a little abusey for you?

Quite honestly its a load of crap that a casino can do business in this manner and you are right behind them, backing them the whole way. If you aren't going to do anything about it, tell him that FL is a bunch of crooks and he shouldn't be playing there. But certainly don't blame him for abusing the bonus. Those rules in the T&C are a catch all, "we can do whatever we want" clause. It seems like 3/4 of the microgamings out there are rogue, and no one is doing anything about it. Not eCogra, and not you, the "watchdog" and "player advocate".

Brian, you did some great work in the past and I really think you were in it to help the players. But in the recent months it doesn't seem like you have done anything but take the side of the casino and sit back and collect your affiliate revenue. What changed?

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Those rules in the T&C are a catch all, "we can do whatever we want" clause. It seems like 3/4 of the microgamings out there are rogue, and no one is doing anything about it.

I agree (and chose in July 07 to never play another Micro. or RTG again,ever)......That is an option at least for those educated by reading this forum, granted the general public (non-reader's of this forum) per se may not realize this option. I am content with my choice given the entire current nature of these software platforms and their licensed/white-labeled casinos.

 

[lojo]

Wow... remember when the rules were the black letters on the white page and there was nothing in between? FL didn't have all the black filled in so they filled in the blanks, created terms as clear as any in the market today, and they're still called rogue when they enforce them?

We readers do not have all the info here. Mistakes happen, new information comes to light ~ somebody's right and somebody's wrong; casino or OP. Time will tell.

The other black letters on a wheat page... I don't see Bryan taking any side here, simply supposing and asking for clarification, and then asking another question. Does gmblpdam read into the fact he hasn't replied in the open forum yet, after digesting the responses of the OP, that he is in a casino's pocket? That's nuts.
And before you know it people will be responding to whacked out suppositions as if they're the facts of the matter and it all turns into a load of crap.

If OP is sincere in his understanding of events, and PaB, why would anyone think it wouldn't be sorted and settled according to the T&C?
I challenge anyone to find an issue that CasinoMeister hasn't handled, in the final analysis, as fairly as humanly possible and if you do, I'll tender my name in green.

 

[Cargal]

Casinomeister,
Why is it that you instantly jump on the back of the casinos? Especially a BS operation like Fortune Lounge. You are saying that he abused the bonus betting 200 a hand on 3CP? When he runs his balance all the way up to 8000 on a 100 bonus, how can he be abusing the bonus? He was clearly just doing some high stakes gambling, and that would seem like just the kind of person a casino would want playing at their operation. What isn't bonus abuse? Betting .25 a hand on keno until your balance is dwindled away? Or is that still a little abusey for you?

Quite honestly its a load of crap that a casino can do business in this manner and you are right behind them, backing them the whole way. If you aren't going to do anything about it, tell him that FL is a bunch of crooks and he shouldn't be playing there. But certainly don't blame him for abusing the bonus. Those rules in the T&C are a catch all, "we can do whatever we want" clause. It seems like 3/4 of the microgamings out there are rogue, and no one is doing anything about it. Not eCogra, and not you, the "watchdog" and "player advocate".

Brian, you did some great work in the past and I really think you were in it to help the players. But in the recent months it doesn't seem like you have done anything but take the side of the casino and sit back and collect your affiliate revenue. What changed?

In just the last 3 threads on this board regarding Casino Rewards, Breakaway and this post it is apparent that Bryan is stressed out or not feeling really like a player advocate. It at least looks like Bryan needs a hug. It must be incredibly frustrating when the people who pay you become more and more of a chore to make look good or even legitimate for that matter, while all of the players that use them are getting stolen from and taken advantage of. I know this is his board and that its rude to suggest but gmbpldam has more than a valid point. It appears to the common reader that Bryan does jump immdiately on the side of the casinos that he promotes and not to the side of the players.

Cases in point:

You got your deposit back - wtf? You are not out a cent of your own pocket.

Worthless reply? How much did you pay me to take the time out to chase these guys down to find out what happened? Zilch - nada.

I could have been playing ball with my kids instead of dealing with thankless players like you. See what happens if you PAB again.

I'm finally getting to this issue now.

Just goes to show - if you are going to play with a bonus, don't do unusual stupid shit.

If the player hasn't violated the Ts & Cs, then the player should be paid. But if there has been a transgression of the rules - tough titty.

You should have known better than to pull this crap off anyway. It's a stupid way of playing.

She pointed out the terms and conditions that are clearly posted on the casino's website that state the following:

So what are you complaining about? You broke the terms and conditions and you were aware of this. I wish players wouldn't waste my time with this stupid shit. I should ban your account for being such a crybaby.

He violated #13 - the casino states that they don't want this sort of bonus play. They have a right to withhold winnings. These guys should have read these terms. Obviously they didn't and thought they could pull a stunt like what happened at Fortune Lounge last Spring.

If you want to play like this, then DON'T use a bonus.

And please spare me the "I only play with bonuses" nonsense. Bonus play limits what you can and can't do in most cases.

One question - why did you fail to read their terms and conditions, and then come here complaining when your winnings were confiscated? You fully knew you were in the wrong, and I don't appreciate you and your non-reading T&C buddies wasting my time.

Don't forget that the Sci-fi group is a member of this forum, and he can probably walk and chew gum at the same time. No one needs a "blackbook" to figure out that Reynier is a problematic player. So in essence, Reynier has created his own very "public" blackbook.

Rules need to be clear-cut.

So now these casinos have included these terms, and it's still not good enough for you?

This is BONUS money and not your money. The casino has every right to dictate how this can be played out. If you don't like it, move on to something else.

And as far as I know, eCOGRA does not write the terms and conditions for casinos. I do know that if Ts and Cs are considered unfair or muddled, then eCOGRA will investigate.

Casinos have a right to protect their businesses, but they need to do this in a fair manner. To turn this thread into another <yawn> eCOGRA bash, gets us nowhere. If you really want to do something beneficial, quit sniveling about what you think is unfair, and contact eCOGRA in a businesslike manner. I'm sure they would be receptive to this.

And actually, I'm not siding with anyone - the casino stated that the player didn't respond to emails sent during the period that they allotted him, and the player says he never received the emails. It's one person's word against another. What am I supposed to do, invest x amount of hours to get to the bottom of this dark mystery??

The guy got his deposit back - I never claimed that this was because of what I did. I just mentioned this because he is not out of pocket. If they confiscated his deposit, that would have been a whole 'nother story.

Let me guess, you placed a single bet with your entire balance on VP, BJ, or slots.

These rules were there when you signed up, and by accepting the bonus you agreed to these rules. You should have not taken the bonus.

My guess is that you probably don't have more than one account, but you are sharing your computer (or identity) with other users. Do you share your computer with anyone else?

One last point:

Why is it bad to point out the obvious about ecogra and tex reese being worthless? Clearly they have shown that already. Many players were allowed to be stolen from based on playing style before it was a rule. Now the rules are totally subjective and a joke - apparently so is tex and ecogra since there is no player protection. Instead of saying what you may not be able to do they should spell out exactly what you CAN and be specific about it. Subjectivity in these cases is a joke. No terms are being broken.

 

[lojo]

Cargal, I just glanced those examples and almost all of them rang a bell... maybe I should scan them better before chiming in a gain... but don't you really think (edit: that if he's tired) what he is tired of is working his ass off for players and most of the work is turning out to be for bonus manipulators who are out to 'work the system' and them come crying to him when they get their peepees whacked? It's like he's their last part of the system to exploit if they can.

Not all of the examples are that, I agree. But enough of what we see here in complaints is, imo.

That's what I'm seeing, but I'm not speaking for him. That's just what I see.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

most of the work is turning out to be for bonus manipulators who are out to 'work the system' and them come crying to him when they get their peepees whacked? It's like he's their last part of the system to exploit if they can.

L J, do you put any blame at all on the platforms/casinos for putting the "system" (which is first and foremost a marketing tool for the casino I am refering to) in place such that FU clauses must exist. Is the casino manipulating the player or the player manipulating the casino????????

 

[Cargal]

Cargal, I just glanced those examples and almost all of them rang a bell... maybe I should scan them better before chiming in a gain... but don't you really think (edit: that if he's tired) what he is tired of is working his ass off for players and most of the work is turning out to be for bonus manipulators who are out to 'work the system' and them come crying to him when they get their peepees whacked? It's like he's their last part of the system to exploit if they can.
Not all of the examples are that, I agree. But enough of what we see here in complaints is, imo.

That's what I'm seeing, but I'm not speaking for him. That's just what I see.

You may very well be correct Lojo. I really can't put myself in his position but it is obvious that it is wearing on him. I guess I was looking more at the aspect of assuming the player to be in the right. So, in essence, they play at a casino, risk money and win, but are told sorry - no soup for you (based on some crazy FU term). Then they go to ecogra and are told too bad, then here and told too bad. All of this and the BIG picture here should be to show that these are legitimate casinos and if a player loses it was fair and if a player wins then he/she will get paid. That is not at all what is happening in the industry right now and nobody including ecogra and seemingly CM (forgive if I am wrong but that is the appearance) is able to or wants to do anything about it. It is a lawless, pointless industry. Why should anyone risk money trying to win if they will have all winnings stolen?

And on the other thread where there are multiple issues with Breakaway it is just perposterous to think that all of us should not be paid. There is no valid reason and one would think that the rep should HAVE to respond in a logical manner in order to be a member here. He addressed rainer but not gaydave or myself and his response to Rainer was ridiculous and not valid as was pointed out by others too. Somebody ON THE PLAYERS SIDE need to stand up and be strong if this is even possible because the whole industry is swirling down the perverbial toilet right now as these thieves steal from winning players.......................

 

[lojo]

L J, do you put any blame at all on the platforms/casinos for putting the "system" (which is first and foremost a marketing tool for the casino I am refering to) in place such that FU clauses must exist. Is the casino manipulating the player or the player manipulating the casino????????

We can look at it with broad eyes, but for me to understand it (and for anyone to do anything about it) I have to look at the constituent parts:
Casino
Affiliate
Player
(overly simplified, I know)

If we can look at particular cases, the big picture will iron itself out, I think. It is hard to put the whole picture into simple statements; rational or subjective.

I'm going to keep it simple and say some people want something for nothing.(Are you kidding? I worked my ass off jumping through hoops and filling out those welfare/dole papers and putting up with those s.o.b.'s down at the office)

Welfare/Dole is there to cover the needy (or in the case of casinos to promote their businesses) but in the end we all pay when it is abused.

I'm not saying that if there is a shortcut to the river we shouldn't take it, but if too many people follow the same path, the landscape gets messed up, erosion occurs, the river gets muddied, and we all end up drinking dirty water.

There are too many casinos, especially since they started forming groups (in part for economic survival in the face of 'trail abuse')

So yes, absolutely, it is ultimately the Casino Industry's responsibility to write the terms and fashion a new marketing paradigm; but for now we are stuck in a weird world online. And if we weren't wasting our energies on loafers, we could focus them on helping the casinos market in a logical fashion, if we chose.

I'm really not looking forward to government regulated casinos, for my own reasons, and they aren't rogue reasons. But that is an aside.

I 'blame' casinos for not having the foresight to stay ahead of the curve they created.

I 'blame' people who want something for nothing.

I blame most affiliates for not being advocates of the players who sign up through them so that we would never have to see the sagas occur here unless they are very important issues.

And until there is a more openminded, rational, and contributing member base here, I will 'side' with reason, or balance, whatever mood I might be in or not and if that comes down as casinosided, that's cool with me.

 

[lojo]

You may very well be correct Lojo. I really can't put myself in his position but it is obvious that it is wearing on him. I guess I was looking more at the aspect of assuming the player to be in the right. So, in essence, they play at a casino, risk money and win, but are told sorry - no soup for you (based on some crazy FU term). Then they go to ecogra and are told too bad, then here and told too bad. All of this and the BIG picture here should be to show that these are legitimate casinos and if a player loses it was fair and if a player wins then he/she will get paid. That is not at all what is happening in the industry right now and nobody including ecogra and seemingly CM (forgive if I am wrong but that is the appearance) is able to or wants to do anything about it. It is a lawless, pointless industry. Why should anyone risk money trying to win if they will have all winnings stolen?

And on the other thread where there are multiple issues with Breakaway it is just perposterous to think that all of us should not be paid. There is no valid reason and one would think that the rep should HAVE to respond in a logical manner in order to be a member here. He addressed rainer but not gaydave or myself and his response to Rainer was ridiculous and not valid as was pointed out by others too. Somebody ON THE PLAYERS SIDE need to stand up and be strong if this is even possible because the whole industry is swirling down the perverbial toilet right now as these thieves steal from winning players.......................

I have my own opinions when it comes to conflicts involving bonuses. But I have yet to see a case here where a player followed the terms and the Advocate sided with the casino in the final result. If you look at the FL debacle of early this year, you'll see a well thought out progression: open - astounded - group removed from favor - group rogued - group payed all players due and changed their terms - group moved to bungles (within the rogue section) They changed their terms in that progression and there is no reason to believe they won't honor them.

I think little things are getting blown out of proportion. And I would suggest to any player, that if they don't want problems, take the first step and don't play with a bonus! If they can't do that, let them call it something other than gambling.

Personally, I'd rather see someone in The Casino Meister's position applying his efforts to watching the gambling operations of the industry and arbitrating favorable conclusions for gamblers, not expending his energies on bonus issues.

I'm sure the Breakaway/Scifi issue will be resolved. It is the first two tenents of accreditidation are:

• They must be able to take care of any player issue swiftly and professionally
• They must adhere to their own Terms and Conditions

So what's to worry about?

 

[NASHVEGAS]

We can look at it with broad eyes, but for me to understand it (and for anyone to do anything about it) I have to look at the constituent parts:
Casino
Affiliate
Player
(overly simplified, I know)

If we can look at particular cases, the big picture will iron itself out, I think. It is hard to put the whole picture into simple statements; rational or subjective.

I'm going to keep it simple and say some people want something for nothing.(Are you kidding? I worked my ass off jumping through hoops and filling out those welfare/dole papers and putting up with those s.o.b.'s down at the office)

Welfare/Dole is there to cover the needy (or in the case of casinos to promote their businesses) but in the end we all pay when it is abused.

I'm not saying that if there is a shortcut to the river we shouldn't take it, but if too many people follow the same path, the landscape gets messed up, erosion occurs, the river gets muddied, and we all end up drinking dirty water.

There are too many casinos, especially since they started forming groups (in part for economic survival in the face of 'trail abuse')

So yes, absolutely, it is ultimately the Casino Industry's responsibility to write the terms and fashion a new marketing paradigm; but for now we are stuck in a weird world online. And if we weren't wasting our energies on loafers, we could focus them on helping the casinos market in a logical fashion, if we chose.

I'm really not looking forward to government regulated casinos, for my own reasons, and they aren't rogue reasons. But that is an aside.

I 'blame' casinos for not having the foresight to stay ahead of the curve they created.

I 'blame' people who want something for nothing.

I blame most affiliates for not being advocates of the players who sign up through them so that we would never have to see the sagas occur here unless they are very important issues.

And until there is a more openminded, rational, and contributing member base here, I will 'side' with reason, or balance, whatever mood I might be in or not and if that comes down as casinosided, that's cool with me.

Thanks for the response, agree on some points in your post (the blame goes full circle), disagree and/or possibly can not grasp (BLAME MOI<LOL) on others, hopefully we are in agreement that the root and causes for blame in the industry as it currently stands must be corrected via an acceptable means to all parties.

 

[lojo]

Thanks for the response, agree on some points in your post (the blame goes full circle), disagree and/or possibly can not grasp (BLAME MOI<LOL) on others, hopefully we are in agreement that the root and causes for blame in the industry as it currently stands must be corrected via an acceptable means to all parties.

Yeah, I'm rambling a bit

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Yeah, I'm rambling a bit

been there,be there,done that,do that.........................K, back on subject matter as this is an important issue,my bad

 

[Stanford]

Edit for double posting

 

[Stanford]

Heads They Win - Tail you lose

Wow... remember when the rules were the black letters on the white page and there was nothing in between? FL didn't have all the black filled in so they filled in the blanks, created terms as clear as any in the market today, and they're still called rogue when they enforce them?

They are not clear at all. Certainly not clear as others. On another board a player makes the point about Cryptos who give a bonus every month. But no complaints in recent history. He says Wagerworks also has no bonus complaints.

This is a scummy operation. It used to not be. They had the bonus abuse clause but no one tried to enforce it.

These guys are not just reneging on a bonus. They are taking the winnings. That's a serious matter. They shouldn't be accepting the bet in the first place. If they really wanted to void play - do it win or lose. Most of the time a guy that starts with a bank of 200 and bets 200 a hand will bust out. Would they give the money back?

eCOGRA makes it worse.

Follow me to Las Vegas for a minute. Now pretend we go into a casino with a coupon good for 2 for 1 blackjack for one hour for bets up to $25. I have actually played this promo. Now suppose I go in and play it for one hour and at the end, the pit boss reads the fine print and determines the coupon is out of date. Do you think they would refuse to cash my chips? Clearly outside the bonus terms. But they amended those terms when they allowed the play and accepted the coupon. I am going to get paid. The Gaming Commission wouldn't go for a renege and they are not excactly player friendly.

What if another Pit Boss shows up and says "Hey, that guy played the same type coupon yesterday. He is abusing the coupons." Same thing. They cash my chips.

Shows how much worse eCOGRA is. The only reason this play is voided is because the guy is a big winner.

imho,
Stanford.

 

[cyprean]

My 2 cents.

For each player who gambles his 100 to 8000 there are 80 players who lose their 100 . When Royal Vegas uses their FU Clause (we don't like that you won) the house edge for all of these players is suddenly 100%.

Not a very fair and appealing at all. Avoid Royal Vegas and other Fortune Lounge casinos at all costs. There are plenty of other operations who play it fair.

 

[happygobrokey]

my one cent.

casinos should not be allowed to be vague like this.

when casinos are vague like this, right now talking about "irregular play", what keeps the players from asking more specifically what types of play are considered irregular, or reveal what pattern of play they will use and ask whether that is something which might be considered irregular? they shouldn't have to, but where ambiguity or grey areas exist, why not take the time to seek confirmation/clarification in exchange for peace of mind?

what is irregular is that the player can manage to win. it's true. if everyone grinded the play with small bets, each loses some back. if everyone bets huge, many players bust and a few win big. the casino gets a take no matter what. they shouldn't need to renege on any winnings that don't violate the terms.

there is no pattern of play that couldn't be considered irregular by some onlooker. when the norm was to grind because the ev predicted a profit, that's what players did. some casinos then ruled against this being allowed. casinos also changed their terms to make grinding less profitable. then the bonus chasers developed a new strategy, that being to double up early and slow down/grind from there. so casinos rushed to eliminate that as a possibility. now this player bets max every time, virtually begging to give his winnings back to the house and its edge, and still can't cash out. so you can't bet big, you can't bet small. either way these days, the bonuses are conceived such that they aren't very +ev, so how can the casino come down with new interpretations after the fact for the few people that happen to do well? i hate it.

i haven't gone looking for sign-ups to play since i had my fiasco with [casino i'm too embarrassed to admit having played at]. before that i had won off no deposits at scifi group and got paid, i played stickies at wager21 group and got paid, bet big on some mg clearpays, cashing out early with nice profits, and got paid. so after i had to pitch a bitch, i decided it isn't worth "doing the rounds" of sub's any more. every new casino you go to is one more chance to have a bad experience and get pissed off and start a fight over. bonus play just isn't worth the hassle it creates anymore. my advice is to stick to the 32red's, the will hill's, the inetbet's, etc, who offer decent bonuses regularly, and are clear as to what games and how much wr to play, and don't care what amount you bet.

the whole industry is just too crammed full of crap. gambling is less than fun anymore. bonuses are too dangerous to attempt to take; you are so restricted in what/how you can play. even without bonus play, you are increasingly limited in how you can deposit and withdraw. it's so lame. it blows. i rarely play any more.

okay, that was more like a nickel's worth. i didn't plan it that way.

 

[chuchu59]

I dont know what the actual reasons for disallowing the winnings are ie bonus abusing or multiple accounts. The casinos offer bonuses to attract people to play and they hope that the players will play a large number of hands with reasonably-sized bets. The typical abuser is after the bonus and will try to keep it intact thru grinding out the WRs so this accusation is not valid. As for multiple accounts, this is also associated with bonuses but if this player bets big and furious, he is after much more than the bonus itself and can be regarded as a true player. It's as if he used the bonus as a springboard to propel him to bet at higher levels immediately.

I really want to know what kind of players the casinos had in mind when offering bonuses. Unless there is more to it, this is just a simple case where the player was offered a bonus and with the house's money he bet big and won. The only thing is he didnt have to double up after his first bet of 100 and could start with 200 bets right away.

 

[Casinomeister]

Casinomeister,
Why is it that you instantly jump on the back of the casinos? Especially a BS operation like Fortune Lounge. You are saying that he abused the bonus betting 200 a hand on 3CP? When he runs his balance all the way up to 8000 on a 100 bonus, how can he be abusing the bonus? He was clearly just doing some high stakes gambling, and that would seem like just the kind of person a casino would want playing at their operation. What isn't bonus abuse? Betting .25 a hand on keno until your balance is dwindled away? Or is that still a little abusey for you?

Quite honestly its a load of crap that a casino can do business in this manner and you are right behind them, backing them the whole way. If you aren't going to do anything about it, tell him that FL is a bunch of crooks and he shouldn't be playing there. But certainly don't blame him for abusing the bonus. Those rules in the T&C are a catch all, "we can do whatever we want" clause. It seems like 3/4 of the microgamings out there are rogue, and no one is doing anything about it. Not eCogra, and not you, the "watchdog" and "player advocate".

Brian, you did some great work in the past and I really think you were in it to help the players. But in the recent months it doesn't seem like you have done anything but take the side of the casino and sit back and collect your affiliate revenue. What changed?

I'm taking a few moments tonight to respond to your post.

Number one: If you had bothered to actually read my original response, I was pointing out to the OP why the casino probably closed his account. I was not siding with anyone.

Another thing, apparently this guy is being accused of fraud. I am not privy to his account or why his account was closed. I stated that eCOGRA is privy to these things. If the guy PABs via here, I can see if I can check this out myself. Bit honestly, I would probably be wasting my time.

Another thing, I was one of the most outspoken persons concerning the FL fiasco last Spring, and probably the first webmaster to remove them from a major website. To imply that I am just sitting around here not giving a damn or not doing a damn thing is probably the stupidest comment I've read in a long time. Obviously you haven't a clue to what I am all about.

I don't side with a player just because he's a player. It's a shame that a number of you can't get past this, but it's always been this way. If a player fails to read the terms and conditions, or decides he is not going to abide by them - then he is pretty much SOL. I don't make the rules, the casinos do. It's up to the player to abide by these, and if a player does not understand why he/she has been locked out, then I will try to explain why - like I did here.

Apparently, you understand this as me taking sides. Perhaps you should read my posts a bit more carefully before jumping to conclusions.

The bottom line is players who commit fraud or purposely break the casino T&Cs deserve no pity. And I should make it clear that they won't get it here.

 

[Casinomeister]

In just the last 3 threads on this board regarding Casino Rewards, Breakaway and this post it is apparent that Bryan is stressed out or not feeling really like a player advocate. It at least looks like Bryan needs a hug. It must be incredibly frustrating when the people who pay you become more and more of a chore to make look good or even legitimate for that matter, while all of the players that use them are getting stolen from and taken advantage of. I know this is his board and that its rude to suggest but gmbpldam has more than a valid point. It appears to the common reader that Bryan does jump immdiately on the side of the casinos that he promotes and not to the side of the players.

Cases in point:
One last point:

Why is it bad to point out the obvious about ecogra and tex reese being worthless? Clearly they have shown that already. Many players were allowed to be stolen from based on playing style before it was a rule. Now the rules are totally subjective and a joke - apparently so is tex and ecogra since there is no player protection. Instead of saying what you may not be able to do they should spell out exactly what you CAN and be specific about it. Subjectivity in these cases is a joke. No terms are being broken.

Most of these cases involve casinos not even listed here, so why do you imply that this is affecting me monetarily?

Casino Rewards has never been listed here
Fortune Lounge was removed last Spring because of a similar problem
The Scifi casino group has never been listed here.
The Bellerock group is listed here - and has been here for years

So what's your point? Do you not understand that I am explaining the casino rules? If a casino states clearly "...placing single bets using your entire or the majority of your account balance, where the majority of that balance is made up of bonus balance..." that this will cause problems, how is this subjective?

I have always been a player advocate, but a casino avocate as well. You need a balanced playing field, not one that is slanted one way or the other. Obviously, the advantage players want me to see their way regardless of whether or not they are breaching the casino terms and conditions. Sorry, that won't happen. If a casino states that you are not to play with bonus funds in a certain way, then don't play that way.

This is not rocket science, it is very plain and simple: if you accept a bonus, abide by the terms and conditions. Don't come here jumping my shit because I am telling you something you don't want to hear.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

So I assume CM disagrees with Stanford. I do not want to rush to judgement as it is not 100% clear to moi,yet. Would appreciate some clarification when you get the time CM.

 

[Casinomeister]

So I assume CM disagrees with Stanford. I do not want to rush to judgement as it is not 100% clear to moi,yet. Would appreciate some clarification when you get the time CM.

You mean whether or not the OP should be paid? If the OP is a fraudster, then obviously he should not be paid - and he should be banned from the forum. If he violated the terms and conditions, then the casino has the right to determine whether or not the winnings should be honored. Hopefully early this week I can take a look at his PAB (he submitted one on Friday) and try to figure out what happened.