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Roxy Palace Refusing £3000 payout

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by jim509, Nov 26, 2014.

    Nov 26, 2014
  1. jim509

    jim509 Newbie member PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Cleaner contractor
    Location:
    UK, England
    ... Based on two hands of blackjack one of which i lost!

    opened an account with Roxy Palace and deposited £200 and received a bonus of £150.* I contacted support to ask them to remove the bonus but was told this was not possible as I had already made wagers.* I understood this.

    I wagered on slots and blackjack until the bonus was played through.* I then continued to play wagering’s thousands on slots and blackjack. I have requested two withdrawals £1400 and £2000.* This morning I received an email saying they would not pay.

    "* I phoned Roxy Palace support and was told that the transactions were on European Blackjack and the following:-
    *
    "On Transaction 9 you spit the hand thereby increasing the bet and therefore exceeding the bet limit."
    "*"
    "On Transaction 12 the bet has exceeded as well."
    *
    *The wagers were capped by the Casino at £37.50 maximum, by wagering this on**blackjack the casino still permitted**an additional bet by doubling if I had a total of 9, 10 or 11 in my hand.* I had no reason to believe this was breaking any rule as it was permitted by the casino.* If by doubling would have voided then entire bank balance and any subsequent winnings it should not have been permitted just as a maximum bet of over 25% of the bonus (£37.50 in my case) was not permitted until the bonus had been totally played through.


    *My winnings were not dependent on doubling or splitting the hand on blackjack.* Even if I had not have doubled or not played any blackjack at all I would have exceeded the wagering requirements relating to the bonus on slots alone.


    *I am a genuine player who has never engaged in bonus abuse of any kind.* It feels as though Roxy Palace**"Risk Management Team have gone through my account in desperation to try and find any reason not to pay-out to a genuine player..

    What should i do next? Any input appreciated. J

    P.s. Sorry for any mistakes in typing. Dodgy smartphone.
     
  2. Nov 26, 2014
  3. bigjohn

    bigjohn Meister Member MM PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Swimming Pool Serviceman
    Location:
    Northeast Coastal USA
    Did any of your bets exceed 37.50, including after doubling up? If they did then you broke the terms and you are at the casinos mercy. Also, it doesn't matter if you won on the larger bets or not, the term deals with the size of the wager not if you won or not.

    As far as what you should do next...make sure that if you take any bonus that you follow the terms for that bonus and you should have no problems.
     
  4. Nov 26, 2014
  5. Googobucs

    Googobucs Meister Member

    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Florida, USA
    There is probably not much you can do if you broke the bet limit terms. Since your playing with a deposit and if your a regular customer, they may be willing to compromise with you to some degree. It never hurts to ask (politely). The worst they can say is no.

    At the time of your wager that broke the terms had you already completed the WR for the bonus? If so, I might explain that you did not realize splitting and doubling of your initial wager in black jack violated the max bet rules and ask them to restore your balance to the time when you broke the term. It's better than nothing if they are agreeable.
     
  6. Nov 26, 2014
  7. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    As splitting and doubling are part of the game, and cannot be predicted until the cards have been dealt, they should not be using this against the player as in effect they are saying the player should have deliberately used a worse than optimum strategy when faced with a suitable hand.

    If it's such a problem, they should not allow Blackjack with the same max bet rules as other games, but either prohibit the game, or set a lower max bet percentage to take into account the fact that the cards dealt can lead to a split or a double.

    Maybe a flat £10 max chip rule should be used, which should cover doubling and splitting.

    As they have a UK licence, they also have to obey UK consumer laws when it comes to dealing with a UK player. It would be worth looking at the application of this term under the "fairness to the customer" criteria in the act, as opposed to it's absolute interpretation.
     
    4 people like this.
  8. Nov 26, 2014
  9. jim509

    jim509 Newbie member PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Cleaner contractor
    Location:
    UK, England
    Thanks. I will try the gentle approach and ask nicely. Not sure how far it will get me though.

    Very frustrating to have 3000 removed as i bet £12.50 too much on two occasions out of thousands of bets.

    Thanks again. J
     
  10. Nov 26, 2014
  11. catapultaudio

    catapultaudio Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Computer Programmer
    Location:
    Leeds, UK
    Sorry but this is scandalous, as VWM states, splitting and doubling are part of the game, and each action is effectively a seperate bet anyway!

    Do Roxy have a rep here at CM this guy can contact? I really hope crap like this will not be tolerated now that casinos are regulated here in the UK, it's just outright theft in my view... as ever, you can bet your life they would not have returned his deposit if he had lost.
     
  12. Nov 26, 2014
  13. Googobucs

    Googobucs Meister Member

    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Florida, USA
    There is absolutely nothing "scandalous" or vague about the term. In fact they even underline the part about single round of play so that it stands out in the statement.
    It's not like they hide it in the fine print of page 327.

    If you want to take advantage of splitting, doubling in Black Jack or the gamble feature in video poker then it's up to YOU to bet appropriately to not break the 25% rule.

    12.The maximum stake per bet will be 25% of the bonus amount on a single round of play while the wagering requirement is being met. For example if the bonus value is £100 the maximum bet permitted would be £25."
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Nov 26, 2014
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The problem is that whilst this term is clear, it may not also be "fair" in all circumstances, which under UK law could be a problem for them.

    A player could stick to the rule, but then get dealt a pair of cards where they really HAVE to split as not doing so presents a significant disadvantage and could negatively impact their chance of winning the hand. With doubling, the outcome is not affected by the player's choice, so they may well have a case here. The player has to decide on the bet BEFORE they can know whether or not they will have to split the hand, which is where the "fairness" aspect of the UK laws comes in. Is it "fair" to expect a player to "throw" a hand because to play it properly (split) would be a breach of a term. This is not the situation when it comes to doubling, whether on a hand of Blackjack, or an outcome from Video Poker or slots.

    If the term is deemed "unfair", it is struck out and all other terms remain. This is not only how the UK works, but there is even a provision for this in the casino general terms and conditions which cover what happens when an individual term is struck out due to a conflict with the consumer law of the players' country.

    It's worth pursuing for £3000, and this should probably be done through the UKGC sanctioned arbitration services, rather than a third party "offshore" service like the PAB here, as the outcome would only apply to UK players. Elsewhere, it would depend upon local consumer laws and how casinos are licenced.

    If this fails, £3000 is low enough for the small claims court procedure to be used, which is much less expensive than chasing a claim for a larger amount through a full court process. I would hope that UK solicitors would have begun to take an interest in this aspect of consumer protection now that we have a regime that forces such cases before UK courts, rather than requiring players and their solicitors to take action in an offshore jurisdiction.

    Such cases are how the level and scope of the new UK consumer protections will be worked out in practice. What we have so far is theory, that by bringing online casinos fully within the scope of UK consumer protection laws the UK player will end up being better protected than they were under the earlier whitelist system where complaints were ultimately decided by the likes of the LGA and GRA.
     
  16. Nov 26, 2014
  17. Googobucs

    Googobucs Meister Member

    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Florida, USA
    I don't know who told you that life is fair but you should ask for a refund.

    The term is clear and IMO fair. So now lets waste the time and tax $$$'s of the people of the UK for someone to go to court over something ridiculous that is spelled out in black and white right in front of your eyes and could not be any more obvious. The OP wont win this case and will just become another statistic of people who waste the courts time.

    I suggest the OP appeal to the casino; as I mentioned before and see if they are willing to show some flexibility.
     
    3 people like this.
  18. Nov 26, 2014
  19. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    DRATT - (Didn't Read All The Terms)

    As has been said, you rely solely on the good will of the casino here. The max bet terms do include 'doubling up' which by splitting you do, just the same as if you gamble for example a win on a slot with the 'red-black' card choice like BDBA. As soon as that win you gamble exceeds the limit you fall foul.

    Despite the constant clamouring on here for casinos to integrate 'idiot-proofing' into their games which automatically warn or prevent over-bets when under bonus rules, the onus remains with the player to remember the rules.

    P.S. I use the term 'idiot-proofing' as a description of having the software nanny us all and NOT in reference to any poster on this thread or any other!

    P.P.S. Before talking of laws and courts or PABs PM the rep and point out it was a mere 2 bets and see if they'll get the WR increased to reflect those bets, thus giving you another chance at their discretion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2014
    3 people like this.
  20. Nov 26, 2014
  21. jim509

    jim509 Newbie member PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Cleaner contractor
    Location:
    UK, England
    Thanks guys. I am taking this all in. I sent a polite reasoned email to the casino stating a few points you have made and asking them to rethink. I would like to include the rep object here but doing this all via a smart phone is making it difficult.

    Thanks again. J
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Nov 26, 2014
  23. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Maybe in the US, but over here we have consumer protection laws that recognise that there is an inherent imbalance between consumer and business from the outset, so even crystal clear terms can be struck out as being "unfair". This can even be done "after the fact", despite the defence that the customer "agreed to them". This is because there is not the usual "negotiation of a contract" as would happen between two equal parties, something you would see in a B2B contract. The business gets to write the contract, and the consumer has zero say in it's content. The law takes over to give the consumer the right to be bound to a balanced and fair contract.

    Someone must live in fairy land if they think an average consumer is just going to walk away from £3000. It's peanuts to a business, but it's a hell of a lot of money for an ordinary person, so if they have an avenue for fighting it, they should go ahead.
     
  24. Nov 26, 2014
  25. jim509

    jim509 Newbie member PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Cleaner contractor
    Location:
    UK, England
    You are right weatherman . Not sure about the US Googo but in UK you dont get far just quoting terms and conditions. You have to show that the terms have been correctly and fairly applied. Otherwise a team of lawyers could own the arse of every consumer via terms n conditions.

    It would not cost a tax payer anything. For a small sum i could file a claim online. Then Roxy have to prove their terms have been fairly applied.

    1) the terms are there to stop abuse of the bonus. It is clear i did not abuse the bonus, i wagered more than i needed to and even requested they remove it.

    2) I did not set out to wager more than 25% bonus, the site did not let me if i wanted to, i simply split a hand that was permitted by the software.

    3) Their action is not proportional. For wagering 'apparently' £12.50p too much on two occasions they remove over £3000 .

    They would have hard time showing their actions are fair and reasonable.
     
  26. Nov 26, 2014
  27. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Were the "over bets" before or after you finished the WR?

    If after, then I don't see how the casino can impose the bonus rules on these bets.
    Even if it was during WR, it still seems more than a little harsh to confiscate all the winning in these particular circumstances.
    It it were me, I would:
    1. Try to get a compromise from the casino.
    2. If that fails (if the wagers were after WR), Pitch-A-Bitch
    3. If that fails - lodge a dispute with the UKGC and see what they say.

    KK
     
  28. Nov 26, 2014
  29. Googobucs

    Googobucs Meister Member

    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Florida, USA
    The US has consumer protection laws as well. I'm just not a consumer lawyer so I would not attempt to quote consumer law to anyone.

    I assume in the UK, you can get a free legal consult with an attorney? I would suggest that before filing a claim so you know what your getting yourself into. These things can get messy and costly if handled poorly.

    If you do file a claim, please be sure to let us know how it goes. It will be a good learning process for others.
     
    2 people like this.
  30. Nov 26, 2014
  31. jim509

    jim509 Newbie member PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Cleaner contractor
    Location:
    UK, England
    Kasinoking it was before the WR .

    Googo Hopefuly it won't get to legal rangling. Hoping Roxy Palace will be reasonable. If not I will have to refer to refer to licensing authority first.

    Thanks to you both.
     
  32. Nov 26, 2014
  33. stokes

    stokes Experienced Greenhorn

    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Springfield
    I think there are two types of casinos when it comes to the payment of winnings.

    1. Who check every details in T&C to find any minor deviation to be able to deny the winnings.

    2. Who check the play logs against T&C and they would not reject any winnings based on minor deviations.

    An example for the second type of casino (maybe not even minor deviation).

    I chose a bonus for my deposit at 18bet, but I did not realize that it was only for Haloween types of slots (DRATT as dunover would put it).
    So I played different slots and I was pretty lucky doubling my deposit and bonus when I was called on my mobile by the casino explaining that it was a special type of bonus and reminded me to play those games allowed.
    They did not remove my winnings and playing the allowed games I was actually able to cash out 1000 USD (my deposit was 100) without any hassle. They did not start to accuse me with bonus abusing, just paid me within 48 hours (with verification).

    So, I prefer to play at the second type of casino.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2014
  34. Nov 27, 2014
  35. jim509

    jim509 Newbie member PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Cleaner contractor
    Location:
    UK, England
    Just had an email from Roxy Palace basically saying .....'yeah yeah yeah whatever. We can do what we want. If you have an issue tell Ecogra'

    My blood is boiling! £200 deposit and £3200 winnings wiped out because of two bets on blackjack they claim were £12.50 over the bet limit out of thousands of bets I placed. Two bets that were splitting hands which the software offered, whereas the software did not permit over-betting when first placing the bet, leading me to believe I was placing an additional bet, not over wagering.

    Would Ecogra ever look at the case on a fairness bases? Or just say 'no! Terms and conditions apply' ? I really need to think how to best approach this.

    Does anyone have any experience with Ecogra dispute resolution? Do I stand a chance in hell?

    Thanks again for all your input. Now going to try and take some deep breaths and sleep.
     
  36. Dec 2, 2014
  37. jim509

    jim509 Newbie member PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Cleaner contractor
    Location:
    UK, England
    Bizzar! £2000 turned up in my bank account. Roxy Palace arbitrarily* paid one casout request but not the other for £1400.

    Obviously I am happy, but it is very odd. If they are going to throw the book at me and feel justified in not paying me why pay some winning but not all?

    I am grateful. However to me it shows this matter is not clear cut. Roxy Palace should at worst remove bonus and winnings from the hands of blackjack in question. But i don't believe they have any business in removing legitimate winnings.

    J
     
  38. Dec 3, 2014
  39. jshort

    jshort Experienced Member MM PABaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    Bus Driver
    Location:
    Canada
    You are one lucky lucky son-of-a-gun! I know you deserved it all, but not getting anything more than your deposit back in this scenario is the norm. Other players have done far worse in your situation!
     

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