ROME Casino - Top Game Support disaster

[vinylweatherman]

This is how this ended:

Top game is the vendor - in other words they provide not only the software, but the customer support, payment processing, and the security which included player fraud reports.

The chat shift supervisor was reprimanded - I feel that he should be drawn and quartered - and it's a travesty that this chat session could have happened at ANY Top Game casino that uses their support (Gold Vegas does NOT use Top Game's support BTW). I've seen a chat session from another TG casino that (as I was warned) would "make your eyebrows fall out". So to point the finger at Rome Casino for this entire is a little off target. So I've changed the thread title from "ROME CASINO - as rogue as it gets?" to "ROME Casino - Top Game Support disaster"

Rome Casino's operator misspoke in a serious way when he accused the player of multiple charge backs. He was relying on the information given to him by Top Game. At the moment, there may be "one" charge back in question, but even this cannot be confirmed by me. Lesson learned - never publicly accuse a player of charge backs/fraud unless you are 110% sure.

So it's Top Game that should be held responsible for the most part. They've been placed into the Bumbling Blunders and Negligence section of the rogue pit.
https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

I hope this serves as a wake-up call and they are able to claw their way out before they slip further into the abyss.

This seems to leave nothing for the actual owners/operators to do, other than count their money.

This is on the homepage of the TopGame software I was looking at...

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)


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Since when did a SOFTWARE VENDOR become an affiliate. Worse, this is favouratism, they are ranking operators in a decending list of what could be interpreted as credibility, and leaving the majority of the Top Game casinos out in the cold.

Top Game have been promising to put up a website for ages, and all they have managed is what can only be described as a "banner farm" - even if it is only text and links.

To me, it looks like Top Game run the entire show, and are not mere vendors, but acting as owner/operators of at least these brands listed.

Microgaming list casinos using the software, but do NOT rank them, make claims about current offers, etc. Last time I looked, it was a simple list in alphabetical order, with links to the various casino websites - all done in an impartial manner.

If there really ARE Top Game casinos that merely license the software, but have their own support, payments, etc and have not yet made this known, they had better speak up now.

I find it VERY worrying how WRONG their so called security checks were. It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE for a player to appeal against the results of these checks when they flag fraud, and often they are not even told anything like as much as was volunteered by the Rome operator. Since the Rome operator indicated they were using outsourced agencies and "tools", there could well be other players who are victim to being wrongly flagged by these so called "100% accurate" fraudulent player detection systems, and who have unjustly lost thousands without ever having had the chance of a fair hearing.

I await an explanation from the Rome rep as to how first indications of "several chargebacks" could have been so wide of the mark, when only ONE seems to have been found, and even this is not certain.

 

[lots0]

I await an explanation from the Rome rep as to how first indications of "several chargebacks" could have been so wide of the mark, when only ONE seems to have been found, and even this is not certain.

The information about the chargebacks came from Top Game, the Rome rep was just relaying the info he was given.

The op also stated at least twice in this thread that he had made at least one chargeback in the past and hinted there may have been others.

this has already been explained.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The information about the chargebacks came from Top Game, the Rome rep was just relaying the info he was given.

The op also stated at least twice in this thread that he had made at least one chargeback in the past and hinted there may have been others.

this has already been explained.

The OP admitted chargebacks, but NOT at online casinos. It matters not whether Rome casino or Top Game did the investigation, it came back with the wrong answer that the OP was guilty of serial chargebacks at online casinos, which is classed as player fraud. Making a chageback because a company didn't deliver is perfectly legal, and here in the UK is a right enshrined in credit law. Making a chargeback because, for example, a shop sold you a dud computer, and then refused to replace it, has nothing to do with online gambling, and should NEVER appear on a fraud check of a player with regard to their past conduct at online casinos.

 

[thebescasino]

So I have been talking to Top Game a lot

and figured everyone here would love to hear some of the answers which I have received.

Now over the last few weeks there has been a lot of talk about our software provider Topgame. First of all let me say that all the majority of critisism has in my opinion been completely justified. Not only where/are there some serious Q&A problems at Topgame but the way that their official representative Jan Strydom has been acting can only be described as unprofessional in the extreme and to answer someones question yes Jan did not score any bonus points with me for his actions.

Having said that I did have high hopes of resolving all these issues with TG and have been discussing all the points that were raised by you and by ourselves. Uptil now our relationship with Topgame has been very good and I have been a firm believer in the fact that Thebes and the TG software would make a very worthwhile addition to the range of quality online casinos that are available to players around the world.

Now I have taken the libery of copying the major points from Rusty posts below and wil attempt to answer them to the best of my ability given the information I have received from Topgame.

No explanation as to why the Jackpot games were being tampered with.

There was no tampering with the games however there was an error with the update in May that caused problems. Yes this should have been picked up straight away and acted faster upon when the information came to hand. Dioblo 13 has been fixed and the other affected Jackpot games are offline till they are fixed.

No explanation as to how these changes caused the missing Wilds.

The missing wilds were not caused because of the changes , once the games were uploaded in May a technical problem caused the wilds not to be displayed on the reels. As with the above answer Dioblo has been fixed and the other affected slots are offline till they are fixed.

No explanation (If Pinababy's timeline is correct) as to why the Jackpot was removed before the games were removed because of the fault.

As far as I am aware the jackpot was not removed prior to the games being removed however I could be wrong here and this issue I still have to confirm. As TG have stated testing by TST is underway and we are eagerly awaiting the results.

No explanation as to how the RTP is calculated - are these Bingo slots where prizes are preselected and the slot reels merely a graphic representation of the result and not true slots?

I am informed that TG use the same system as Microgaming and Playtech here but will have this confirmed. Please note that I am not a technical person so I am not sure what system they use.

No explanation as to why the stakes need to be so ludicrously high to win a Jackpot - $45 and $65 a spin.

I can confirm that you can only win a TG progressive jackpot when betting the maximum amount that you can possibly bet whilst playing maxlines, ie on a 9 payline $5 max video slot you do need to bet $45 in order to win. Clearly this is something that we are not a very big fan of and we want it changed asap. Senior management at Top Game have confirmed this will be changed by August at the latest.

No explanation as to what 5 Wild symbols pay if the game is not played at $45 and $65 a spin. -It appears this may be nothing!

I am assuming that we are talking about 5 wild symbols on 1 active payline ? It does appear that this may be nothing, which is clearly not acceptable TG has confirmed that this will be changed let me get back to you with the exact date.

No explanation or mock screenshot provided of the 5 Wilds that a player hit on a 45c bet but only won under $5 from other combinations.

The screenshot which is normally very simple has now taken another week and I will probably not receive it till friday. Please note I never stated that the player did not get the 5 wilds on 1 payline, I stated I was not sure. And yes I totally agree that 5 wilds on 1 active payline should payout something, even though and as mentioned above it would appear that this does not.

No explanation as to when the Jackpot that was removed will be reinstated to the Jackpot game. (Just a promise it will)

Dioblo 13 has been fixed and that jackpot progressive is back on line, the other ones will be put back when the games are fixed.


Clearly the issue with support is also of major concern and this is precisely why we were the first Topgame powered casino to add our own support (but yes we do still have some shared support). However the fact that we have our own staff as well, coupled with the fact that both myself and other staff monitor the live support have meant that all player issues were detected and dealt with in a quick and satisfactory way. Only option here as far as Thebes is concerned is moving to 100% own support and this is what we will be doing.

To answer another open question, yes we do use Topgame for processing and player payments although we have almost completed the move to a dedicated account. Affiliate payments have been handled by us since day one.

Topgame have made some serious mistakes here and as many of you have stated things will have to change and communication for one is definitely going to have to improve as its simply unacceptable to take such a long time to explain things.

As others have mentioned it is good to see that Topgame have decided to compensate all players that played the affected games and have now got back to us with some of the answers.

I appreciate everyone's advice here and thank you all for taking the time to give it. I will not lie and say we have not had serious thoughts about moving to another provider however I think the real way to succeed is to deal with all these issues (as terrible as some of them have been) and do all that we can to make TG better and yes this will require them taking some drastic steps.

I personally have no problems with companies and operators making mistakes as long as they are dealt with in a professional way and hope that in the future this will be the case with our provider.

As always I will be available to answer any questions and take any TG related question up with senior management there. Any questions that have not been answered yet I will continue to follow up on.

Kind Regards


David

 

[Rusty]

Thank you for that excellent post David.
It is very unfortunate that a Casino manager indirectly involved with a lot of the problems and with no real technical knowledge should be left to do Topgames explaining for them.
They are fortunate to have such a good ambassador running One of their supplied Casinos.

I will try not to get bogged down in semantics - as to whether these unannounced and unexplained updates of the Jackpot games constitute tampering but there is still no explanation as to what the intention of these updates was and as to how this could possibly result in the removal of Wild symbols from Reels One and Two.
That requires a technical explanation so that it can be understood as to whether this error was completely innocent.

I appreciate what you are saying David but apparently the games functioned normally for some time before this mystery update was introduced and then for it to have a bug that rendered the Jackpot un-winnable and greatly reduce winning combinations is sure to raise suspicions, especially with those of us who have some technical knowledge.
Remember this was not simply a display bug, the Wild symbols were not only not displayed they were also crucially not available as reel stop positions on reels 1 and 5.

This leads us onto how the software actually functions and as to whether these games constitute real slots or bingo slot games.
This will be a fundamental part in determining whether such an error could come about without malicious intent.

Common ground:

It is an extraordinary design flaw to have a slot that pays nothing for 5 Wilds on active payline and we agree on that.

We also agree on the absurdity of having a minimum bet of $45 to be eligible for a Jackpot - made even more mind numbingly unfair when the same result that would yield a Jackpot on $45 would pay Zero on $44!

Also we agree on the response from Topgame being unprofessional and I thank you David for your response and also informing us that One of the Jackpots has now been reinstated.

I think most of this forum accept that new Casinos and providers can and do make mistakes and will wholeheartedly agree with you that it is the reaction of these entities to complaints and problems that tells us so much about their ability to improve and succeed in the future - I would take some convincing that Topgame have a good future though.

Ultimately it is better for the Player if there is more competition with Casinos and software providers.
It encourages innovation (Or at least it should) and should indirectly lead to the player getting a better deal.
So in that respect I am always happy to see a new provider come on the scene and give them a little growing space but that does not mean turning a blind eye or instant acceptance and forgiveness of some very serious issues.

I respect your decision to stay with Topgame and hope it pays dividends for you, your Casino deserves to succeed, from the perspective of professionalism at least.
I would also not tie myself to any long term contract with Topgame at this stage though either. There are still outstanding issues after all.

 

[jetset]

I have to agree with Rusty's comments on David's (Thebes Casino) explanation above; it is frustrating to see the real culprit here (Topgame) apparently hiding behind it's licensees.

However, the company does not appear to have anyone capable of representing it in a professional manner, and that may be the reason .

Whilst David's explanation on the astonishing events surrounding TG, Rome Casino et al is appreciated, the fact remains that such a review has taken far too long to be offered up. One has the perception that Top Game has had to feel the wrath of its licensees before it deigns to offer redress and explanations to the players who keep it in business.

Top Game will be under the microscope to ensure that it makes good on its promises to recompense affected players, so time will tell if that is carried out satisfactorily.

Hopefully they have learned a lesson from this. TopGame has boasted that it's management is rich in experience and talent, but the manner in which this issue has been handled suggests they may need a refresher course .

Top Game is clearly in damage control mode, albeit through it's licensees, at present. Over at 911 today Winward Casino is trying to ameliorate the situation in which this software provider finds itself - and as Casinomeister members know very well, Winward itself has a somewhat chequered past.

I hope that going forward the better Top Game licensees see the danger to themselves in this sort of situation and continue to pressure their software provider to (a) finalise this matter quickly, fairly and efficiently, (b) get its Support infrastructure sorted out - and probably their technical division as well and (c) start delivering a professional service instead of merely talking it up.

 

[tat00]

wow

i must say this has to be the best thread ever.
and no i did not skim through anything. it took 2 hours to get things straight but wow.

i cannot believe how bad that chat looked - in my opinion when a whale is presented to a casino that casino must deliver their promise otherwise they should not be in the bussiness( even if a chat host is representing that casino)

i wanted to say thanks for posting this thread it was very informative.

btw wanna sponsor me in the main event im a good poker player lol

 

[Rusty]

I am just wondering if One of the mods feels the posts from Thebescasino, Myself and Jetset should be in the "Topgame rogue software?" thread as they are directly related to events and previous posts there.
Is it possible to have them moved?

 

[lots0]

However, the company does not appear to have anyone capable of representing it in a professional manner, and that may be the reason .

I understand this maybe changing in the future.

BTW - I don't believe that Top Game is "Rogue" in the true sense of the word... What I see here is blundering, bad decisions and very poor communication skills... But no 'evil' intent. (However, I have stopped promoting all top game casinos till after this is all cleared up.)

Some of the casino/software Reps that don't have much experience in posting to forums, fail to realize that around here you have to have skin that is as thick as steel... and the one hard and fast rule is to never take the criticism of your casino or software as a personal attack.

 

[jas2587]

No explanation as to why the stakes need to be so ludicrously high to win a Jackpot - $45 and $65 a spin.

I can confirm that you can only win a TG progressive jackpot when betting the maximum amount that you can possibly bet whilst playing maxlines, ie on a 9 payline $5 max video slot you do need to bet $45 in order to win. Clearly this is something that we are not a very big fan of and we want it changed asap. Senior management at Top Game have confirmed this will be changed by August at the latest.




why not pull the progressives till you can lower the max cashout that is way to steep as they cant do anything about it till August look at all the people playing it as we type that doesnt even realize that they have to play at $45 to $65 per spin to have a go at the Progressives

very misleading on Tower gamings part

keep feeding it they wont notice a thing at all

We are not all Whales

Cindy

 

[jetset]

I understand this maybe changing in the future.

BTW - I don't believe that Top Game is "Rogue" in the true sense of the word... What I see here is blundering, bad decisions and very poor communication skills... But no 'evil' intent. (However, I have stopped promoting all top game casinos till after this is all cleared up.)

Some of the casino/software Reps that don't have much experience in posting to forums, fail to realize that around here you have to have skin that is as thick as steel... and the one hard and fast rule is to never take the criticism of your casino or software as a personal attack.

I would agree with that to some extent, but I also feel that there as been a serious underestimation of the intelligence, knowledge and determination of the player community, and the influence it can muster, and maybe more than a little arrogance in thinking this could be blown off easily.

Regarding placing reps in the line of fire in the forums, for professional managers it should entail a little research first, and choosing the right person for the job....and reps that are straight up are generally respected once they have proved themselves.

Finally, we still have to see whether Top Gaming lives up to its promises to reimburse players before we can make a judgement call on the management's integrity imo.

 

[RedAndi]

WOW!

This has been an entertaining Sunday night, this thread had me riveted.

One thing that never got asked here (that I saw) and that I am dying to know.... Is how you aquired your wealth JHV?
I noticed you said you used to be a casino dealer, so I assume you were not always in the position you seem to be in now.
Did you get to be so well off playing poker? And what is MSNL (I googled it but it brought me to forums and technical computer terms....nothing with just a CLEAR explanation of acronym).
If you do not want to give personal details here that is fine, I was just looking for some general info on how you did it.
Sorry for being nosy, I just thought I would ask....I am curious my nature.

Thanks!

 

[RedAndi]

Is this it?

MSNL- Mid Stakes No Limit??

 

[JHV]

This has been an entertaining Sunday night, this thread had me riveted.

One thing that never got asked here (that I saw) and that I am dying to know.... Is how you aquired your wealth JHV?
I noticed you said you used to be a casino dealer, so I assume you were not always in the position you seem to be in now.
Did you get to be so well off playing poker? And what is MSNL (I googled it but it brought me to forums and technical computer terms....nothing with just a CLEAR explanation of acronym).
If you do not want to give personal details here that is fine, I was just looking for some general info on how you did it.
Sorry for being nosy, I just thought I would ask....I am curious my nature.

Thanks!

Since my suspension was lifted, I have refrained from posting as I fear my posting style is not suited to this forum (which is very much a serious, valuable and much-needed forum playing a vital role in policing the Wild West nature of the online casino industry).

But I'll just post quickly to answer your question - MSNL = Mid Stakes No Limit (covers 3/6nl to 25/50nl or 600nl > 5000nl - usually Texas Holdem although PLO [Pot Limit Omaha] is gaining popularity fast).

I was playing Limit poker (very poorly) as far back as 2001 at Party and Paradise, but only starting doing very well in late 2006 when I started hanging out with some very successful online NL players and peaked late last year, when I all but broke a lot of regs on 2 networks playing HUSH (Headsup / ShortHanded) against all-comers pretty much. This year has seen a reversal of fortunes, where I seem to be sub-consciously determined to bankrupt myself - and would probably be considered "value" in games as low as 3/6nl if I played them. I've lost about $650,000 this year, and have basically stopped all gambling after Vegas as I'm suffering from a triple threat of being cursed, playing terribly, and being stupid gambling huge on house edge. Not sure what I'll do from here on in, maybe write or something - but boredom is an enemy more powerful than most realise.

Also, I'll clarify once again that I have never made an online gaming chargeback of any kind (*edit: until Rome locked me out of my account). And I challenge Top Game or Rome (I was unaware until just skimming through the last few pages of this thread that I was dealing with Top Game support and not Rome staff) to produce any "evidence" that I have ever done so.

I strongly believe that the claim in this thread that I had previously made multiple online gaming credit card chargebacks in the past was a boldfaced lie and a desperate attempt to save face on the part of the people making that allegation, and my personal opinion is that those who made those allegations (specifically Josh) have not received the lambasting and public shaming that is their due for having been caught out - but I'll leave it at that.

I would like to post more often on this forum, but I will attempt to refrain from doing so as to incur the wrath of Bryan pains me as I have the utmost respect for the role he plays in the protection of online casino players and the way in which he goes about it.

 

[Cassa]

I would like to post more often on this forum, but I will attempt to refrain from doing so as to incur the wrath of Bryan pains me as I have the utmost respect for the role he plays in the protection of online casino players and the way in which he goes about it.

That is a pity as I enjoyed your posts, you seem honest & tell it like it is.

 

[The Dude]

...I would like to post more often on this forum, but I will attempt to refrain from doing so as to incur the wrath of Bryan pains me as I have the utmost respect for the role he plays in the protection of online casino players and the way in which he goes about it.

All we ask is to post responsibly - that's all. Welcome back.

 

[lots0]

From what I have seen, Bryan is perdy hard to get real angry... unless you mess with him on a Monday morning... or his first day back from a nice long vacation.

JHV If your into writing about gambling PM me. We might be able to work out a deal.

 

[bb28]

I for one hope you hang around JHV.......I think you'll be a valuable asset to CM.

 

[RedAndi]

Thank You

Thanks for the answer JHV, sounds like you did pretty well for yourself. I can't even imagine amassing that kind of bank, it's like a dream!

Also sorry to hear you have had some rough times this year, I hope it turns around for you. I think we (at least I for sure) all know what boredom can do to a gambler, I have dumped way too much money into casinos for some excitement (and trying for that big hit). I am one of those kind of people who have to be very careful as the "thrill" can take me way farther than I want to go sometimes.
Anyway, Good Luck to you and don't blow it all!

 

[Jasminebed]

Thanks for re-entering the thread. I do hope you continue to participate, and we have many posters with many styles.

It was a valuable addition to pointing up real problems at Rome and Top Game, and I thank you for that.

 

[slotheadlizard]

JHV

Welcome back Scooter. I do hope you continue to contribute on the forum. Yours have been my fav. thread to date. That chat is a classic. Even if you chose not to post about your misadventures with "iffy" casino practices, please post. Since you once worked in a casino I'm sure you have some good stories about your dealing days, and what goes on behind closed doors of the casinos. Spin those yarns. You can change the names to protect the innocent

 

[The Dude]

Since this specific issue is pretty much over - I've moved the last few posts here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/gambling-addiction-discussion.32317/

and upgraded this one to closed.

If there are any further Rome issues, please start a new thread. Thanks!