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Robbed again

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Rusty, Jun 8, 2007.

    Jun 8, 2007
  1. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Well I have been ripped off again this time by good old William hill.
    Played the slots in freeplay woohoo features galore!
    Play the slots in real play.....erm where have the scatter symbols gone?
    Played that magic carpet slot which award 5 free spins for 3 adjacent scatters...wow was easy in free mode..hit 4 of them twice and retriggers...but suddenly it seems impossible in real money, well not impossible but strangely difficult and when i finally do hit them i get crap!
    Same with the frightmare slots, features galore in free mode not a one in real play.

    Now if I was a noobie then some bright spark could say
    "Tsssk you were just unlucky, that's variance"

    But since ive played 100,000's of spins on online slots and hardly ever been on the right side of variance I think I am qualified to say.

    WHAT A RIP OFF!

    I swear that in my last 20 deposits at various Casinos using different software I have not had better than a 65% return.

    Often much less and I doubt my previous 50 deposits went much better.

    My theory is that money is being siphened off from some slots and put into the progressive or other jackpot slots.
    Nice big headlines when it is won and maintain the overall payout %

    Of course that could be a wild accusation and the truth is that the Casinos are juct pocketing the money:eek2:

    If anybody catches me playing again or posting that I have played before this bent industry gets regulated then be kind and shoot me.
     
  2. Jun 8, 2007
  3. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Time for another break Rusty mate.

    Will Hills (real play) is not rigged.
    Well over $2,000 profit from just their $40 monthlies since 2001 proves that to me.
    Apart from the fact that Crypto software is just about my favorite.

    Fun play may well not reflect real play on many platforms - in particular Cryptos which use your own computers RNG for the games so they can be played off-line. I don't think any software providers publish claimed payout for fun play - so you can't really complain about it.

    If you really believe any online casino you visit is 'rigged' please stop playing now. What's the point of playing if they'll never let you win?

    KK
     
  4. Jun 8, 2007
  5. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Because I am a martar to the cause ;)

    Seriously though they should let me win once in a while it would save both parties some pain. :cool:

    Just played it on free play again and it is definately a high variance slot but I still did a lot better than for real money and hit a $80 win.

    Here is a challenge for you wise free players.
    Play magic carpet at 9 lines 10c a line and see if you can lose $150 in 30 mins.
    Also you are not allowed to be infront at any time.
    Apparently it is easily done in real mode :rolleyes:

    If a Casino's software does not play the same in free mode as real play then they are misrepresenting their product and obviously this would not be allowed if it were properly regulated.
     
  6. Jun 8, 2007
  7. Rettahs

    Rettahs Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Consultant
    Location:
    Saint Louis
    Heck Rusty, I have had a down few months so I just closed the accounts and don't play much anymore except one flash casino and just closed the rivals I was playing at. No sense in chasing a loss man, once it stops being fun it's time to find a new hobby is what I decided. Take care. :)
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Jun 8, 2007
  9. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It depends on whether the difference is simply down to using the PC RNG or whether fun mode is deliberately programmed to give an artificially enhanced experience.

    PC based RNGs are still essentially random, but run in a predictable cycle using an internal algorithm, and you may well be getting each number in the cycle in turn. With this, the play may seem different, but it should broadly be in line with real mode payout percentage over the long term, and certainly not wildly different.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Jun 8, 2007
  11. I<3Microgaming

    I<3Microgaming Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Canada
    1 person likes this.
  12. Jun 8, 2007
  13. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yes, this is a known issue of free play, but the base game should still behave much as it should in real mode, even though the random jackpots get silly. The non jackpot slots should NOT be streaking endlessly just because it is fun mode - this would be misleading.
     
  14. Jun 8, 2007
  15. Avatar73

    Avatar73 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Pilot
    Location:
    UK
    haha yeah... happy days.
    Never had so much mickey mouse money at one time!

    Until the next time, I won a hand of texas bonus and again won about 1M quid. hmmm, why does this error not carry over to the real casino :p
     
  16. Jun 8, 2007
  17. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    I see what you are saying and it is a valid point but there is no reason for such sloppy programming that it would allow a random sequence of numbers to be repeated when the game relies on its RNG.
    The point is though that freeplay should use the same RNG as real money mode and indeed this will have to be the case come regulation.
     
  18. Jun 8, 2007
  19. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    There should be no noticeable difference even with the PC's own built-in RNG. I still have not received a solution to http://www.casinomeister.com/forums...ssons-learned-cipher-thread-5.html#post144901 where one of the block is generated by a much simpler procedure than an RNG.
     
  20. Jun 9, 2007
  21. dealer wins

    dealer wins Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Finncial Controler
    Location:
    London the sh$thole
    You cannot lose on William Hill's slots in freeplay.

    If they ever used the freeplay percentages in reel play for just one day Hills would go bankrupt for certain.

    Its like playing a Las Vegas slot during a slot tournament LOL
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Jun 9, 2007
  23. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Even if the RNG of a PC were crude enough to be predictable, the slots should still pay near to the return in real mode, although clever players would see patterns. For the slot to pay far more in play, it has to be rigged to produce MORE wins than justified by the distributions of symbols on the reels, or the free play slot is not the same one as in real mode (different reels/symbols). This is misrepresentation of the product, as the product the casino want you to "buy" is a real money account, "free play" is the advertising, and by law should not misrepresent the product.
    This is not something a company based in the EU should get involved with. No doubt they have got away with it because no-one has thought to complain to the advertising standards agency. It is relevant, as they advertise the brand here, behind the urinals at Winchester Motorway services at present (all the Cryptos seem to take turns here:D, it was 888.com at Christmas, how fitting:D) Intercasino are more upmarket, sponsoring late night telly on channel 4, they also got a "product placement" on the documentary "sports dirty secrets" during a reconstruction of an incident at cartmel racecourse supposedly from well before the internet ever existed (sloppy continuity/editing my the documentary makers who went to so much trouble to shoot in black & white and make it all "scratchy", yet left the banner "intercasino" centre shot.:lolup:)
     
  24. Jun 10, 2007
  25. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    if i may, a lot of things advertised - such as cleaning products and weight-loss programs - show only the "winning" results in their ads.

    and if you are playing offline in fun mode, you have to recognize that inside your computer are only finitely many accessible values from which to generate a seed for the game's algorithm. some people don't even trust the randomness of the network when they are connected and the possible sources for random number generation are far more numerous.

    it could be argued that using the term "fun" when describing it changes the nature of it. assuming one is playing "for fun", i ask how many would enjoy losing all their play money when trying to have fun? they give you more winners so it's fun. reality hits when you enter real mode. a "fun" tool set is likely to be made from plastic and provide the user enjoyment and recreation without any of the usual risk of using proper tools and with no chance of anything productive resulting. a "real" tool set bears with it the risk of injuring oneself, and also the real objects are bound by physics and do what they are actually intended for and can produce concrete results etc.

    not saying i think it's okay for fun mode to pay differently, but it just isn't written in stone anywhere that it should or shouldn't, and those truly playing "for fun" probably enjoy that they win. the only con is that it creates an illusion of good luck or loose games in the real world. but i go back to what i initially said, which is that the advertising is only meant to show how great the product is, and not obligated to disclose any of its shortcomings. in the particular situation of casinos it does border on deliberate misdirection. but all i have heard about the "autocool" solar fan thing is that it does absolutely nothing and may not even dissipate enough heat to offset the heat produced by the turning fan. yet they continue to sell it to suckers and falsely show how it keeps an identical car in the same place at the same time 30F cooler than the one without the device. it's cruel, yes. it's not morally right. but it is normal in this day and age. the money is worth more than the product. mass production, capitalism and even agrarianism set the stage for this.

    i still believe that in my lifetime (ie this century) we as a people will transcend the current motif of greed and cutthroat ethics that teems in our world now. as resources are depleted and the environment decays, we will be forced into pooling our efforts, and giving up our xboxes and porsches for the greater good and for the promotion of man and civilization. along that note, open a door for a lady! it returns 10000% on the effort it takes if that lady is close to you, and it just propagates human compassion and courtesy in this eroding society when done for a stranger in public.

    if we could ration gas, food, etc for a war, why can't we start economizing and conserving for a viable future as a species?
     
    2 people like this.
  26. Jun 10, 2007
  27. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    If the watchdogs knew what they were doing, they COULD get the casino on this one because of the fact that where certain countries are banned from playing for real, they are ALSO banned from playing for fun. This makes fun play a method of trying before buying, not a separate "FUN" product such as the plastic toolset.
    If you went to a store and wanted to try a product you were interested in, you would want to see what the actual product was like, you would not want to be shown and try a far better model, and be told this is what you would be getting when you parted with your cash. You would, no doubt, be mad when you got home and opened the box.
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Jun 10, 2007
  29. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    I like your post and your sensibilities happy but I simply can not agree that this sort of misrepresentation is, in any way, acceptable.
    It is not the same as advertising a product as what they are actually doing is showing you one product but selling you a different one.
    A bit like giving you a test drive in a Farrari and selling you a Scoda.
    If you notice on TV adds such as ones for console games they have to inform you if the graphics are not in game. This is so that the game can not be misrepresented by the use of FMV.
    At the very least players should be informed that the games in fun mode and real mode play differently.
    As I say, UK regulated Casinos will not be allowed to get away with these sort of dirty tricks.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Jun 10, 2007
  31. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    :lolup::lolup::lolup:
    11 hours since happy's post and we post the same thing at the same time VWM.
    It's all in the airwaves mannnnn :cool:
     
  32. Jun 10, 2007
  33. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It's Sunday, after a hard slog at JF Tumbling Dice & slots tournaments - perhaps we both just got up and online late:)
     
  34. Jun 10, 2007
  35. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Ahhh, Happy, I love your idealism... when did I become such a cynic? So what if You must register/login in order to see the link. was shifted by the embargo games of the seventies, and the industrialized nations are in a predictable state of decline - corporate cannibalism and power consolidation is rampant, and play mode is not the same as money mode at some casinos. I could reawaken my optimism, I think I will :)

    I'm not kiddin bra, I'm going to accentuate the positive, I believe it's the only way the dream of which you speak can occur - at least in my life.

    Now if I could just get the RNG on my windows machine to quit acting like an AI when I play hearts on it, I wouldn't have to keep reverting to free-cell just so I feel like I'm getting a fair game.:thumbsup:
     
  36. Jun 13, 2007
  37. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    i own at hearts versus my comp! maybe it's slower and less intelligent than yours :p

    and i think when the ad for autocool shows the temperature inside one car as so much cooler, and this was not accomplished by using the autocool device, and then they sell you a thing which does not do what the ad illustrates, then it is the same thing. vwm makes a good point about restricting fun mode for certain locations.

    and i don't think it's acceptable to misrepresent a product. i just concede that such is life. i wish they wouldn't.

    and i see fun mode as a waste of time. like watching sports, there's no point other than to kill time, unless there's money on the line. like people who audit the roulette wheel before starting to play. waste of time. i can understand the utility of testing a casino's games for statistical purposes using fun mode, but imo this is not the intended use for the fun mode. it is meant to create an aura conducive to persuading you to spend money. whether you decide to play because "the games seem loose" or because you "have fun there", they want you to put your money there.

    but i don't think they offer the fun mode so that discerning customers can run simulations and derive statistics and make a calculated decision whether or not to play based on arithmetic results. and IF you can do all that stuff, you can likely tell when the fix is in and that the results are not random. so you wouldn't be swayed by a high-paying fun mode anyway. so why are you running the sims in the first place? to find a fun mode that operates satisfactorily randomly that pays better than expectation? the effort to me seems futile. but i don't have any CS classes, just a semester of game theory probability calculus stuff. and, i don't have effort to do much of anything, so when i say pointless to try it very well might not be to someone more ambitious. i just fail to see the reward in it.

    my best advice if you think a bj game is rigged: hit a 12-14 vs dealer 2-6. if the suckouts are dealt in advance, you can eat one card when you should stand, wrecking the order rigged according to basic strat, and you likely won't bust by hitting.
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Jun 14, 2007
  39. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Funny that, it seemed to work for a while at Boss - seemed like the dealer showed a ten more often than having one in the hole, it shouldn't happen, so I tried playing a dealer 10 as if they had a crap card in the hole, and stood on my 12 so the dealer got the other ten meant for me.
     

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