1. By continuing to use the site, you agree to the use of cookies .This website or its third-party tools use cookies, which are necessary to its functioning and required to achieve the purposes illustrated in the cookie policy.Find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Dismiss Notice
  3. Follow Casinomeister on Twitter | Facebook | YouTube | Casinomeister.us US Residents Click here! |  Svenska Svenska | 
Dismiss Notice

Poll:Best Screenshot of the Month?



Candidates Revealed...Cast your vote!.
Dismiss Notice
REGISTER NOW!! Why? Because you can't do diddly squat without having been registered!

At the moment you have limited access to view most discussions: you can't make contact with thousands of fellow players, affiliates, casino reps, and all sorts of other riff-raff.

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join Casinomeister here!

RNG versus Program

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by lojo, Apr 7, 2007.

    Apr 7, 2007
  1. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Simmo!'s "What is Random" thread got me thinking again about something I almost have my head wrapped around.

    Assuming a random number generator is more or less unpredictable it has a job; to generate numbers.

    Now the program-

    Here's where I'm messed up. I thought i understood how RNG's and Programs inter-related based on Vegas (NGC et al) slots and my experiences with MG slots. But a lot of discussion here lately has me wondering...

    Be nice to see RNG's relationship to Program explained in less than 200 words in the classic example and then each SW platform's answer to that 'absolute'.

    No hurry:cool:
     
  2. Apr 7, 2007
  3. 3Dice

    3Dice I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    -
    Hmm not really sure what you are referring too, but I'm guessing the short answer to your question is the paytable.

    Lets assume video poker as an example. We'll do just the first hand to keep things simple. The game will start by generating 5 random nrs. The numbers generated are between 1-52, but with the added restriction that they must be different. Once you have these numbers, which are fully random, they are
    translated to cards. The most obvious way to do that is just start with the ace of any deck, thats '1', the two of the same deck is '2', up to the king which will be '12', the ace of the next deck is '13' and so on .. ending with the king of the last deck at '52' .

    That doesnt change anything so it's still fully random and each combination of cards has the same odds of getting 'selected'. Now all that needs to be done is map it to winamounts. That's of course where the paytable comes in. The paytable has the function of grouping the result into categories. E.g. all results that have 5 cards from the same deck we call a flush. And so on. Now the idea is that these groups all have a different number of combinations in them. For example if you write down all possible outcomes, there's only 4 royal flushes. But there are a lot more results that have a pair of jacks or better. For each of these groups a payout is set. The idea there is that the payout is slightly less than the odds of getting it .. e.g. 1/100 odds pays 98 which would mean a 2% house edge on that outcome.

    The same applies to slot machines. Numbers are drawn, these numbers represent a position on a reel. The symbols on these positions determine what
    group the spin ends up in and what the payouts are. The only notable difference is that for slot machines the player doesnt know what the reels look like, whereas that's pretty obvious in the case of a deck of cards.
     
    3 people like this.
  4. Apr 9, 2007
  5. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Thanks 3Dice,

    With your explanation it's easy to see how the 9,10,j,q,k,a show up on the reels relating to a deck. And how three aces will appear less frequently than three nines and thus be worth more when they do appear.


    Found this in my archive (from You must register/login in order to see the link.)

    So if the RNG is fair (unpredictable and not manipulated) and the program works like the example above: the program is simply fed a random number, and statistically every 15,503,906 numbers the program could produce the big win?

    Of course more simply is that every 15,503,906 spins, however distributed in time, I could hit it :D

    Sorry if I seem daft here...


    Zoozie, GM, pull my arse out of the fire here:D

    **************

    Maybe it would help others answer my question (which I'm not sure how to phrase) if I start by what I think I know so far:

    • The RNG feeds the program a number (most programs retrieve this at spin button being 'pushed')
    • Program has a mathematical formula based on longterm payout percentage that will, over time, payback 95% if house edge is 5%
    • Some symbols pay more than others because they are more rare
    • Low variance games give many small returns to achieve EV
    • High variance games give fewer but larger paybacks to achieve the same EV
    • RNG is not concerned with how many lines, how many coins, nor their denominations. It is not interacting at all with the program except to feed a number when called for.
    • A fair program is not concerned either, it will produce the same screen results when I bet one cent one line or $5 per line on all 15 lines.
    • The program only uses my bet size and lines wagered to calculate my payback

    *******************

    So I guess if what I think I know is true, I've answered my own question. This is, I assume, NGC standard. I always assumed it was Microgaming standard. Is it standard for any of the other online software?

    I'm not picking on 3Dice to answer this if others can't or won't. It would be nice to know as this is what I consider a fair slot. And as I've mentioned in other posts, I don't care if the payout is only 75% as long as its stated and and as long as it's fair. (I'm pretty sure I play 75% slots every time I go through an airport in Nevada, or play at a truckstop or restaurant or bar, whatever) :what: and probably far worse with the Oregon lotto 'slots'.

    MG
    GV
    Rival
    3Dice
    RTG
    Hype

    Anybody?

    Thanks.

    And if I'm all wet on my suppositions, anybody please enlighten me?
     
  6. Apr 9, 2007
  7. 3Dice

    3Dice I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    -
    Hey Lojo,

    I'll be happy to give you the answer in the case of the 3Dice software. I feel that informing players is a responsability of the casino, and although it would make sense to assume that all casino software works like this, I feel its up to the other sw companys to explain this to their customers when they see questions like this popping up.

    So, I wont go out of my way and claim that there is no reason that any sw provider wouldn't do things as described here, they can come and tell you themselves if they like.

    Correct.
    Correct. The 'formula' is that an occurance of 1/x pays (x*houseedge*betsize). In other words if a win category represents half the possible combinations, it pays out _nearly_ 2 times the betsize.
    Correct.
    Correct. Although better worded as low variance games have wincategories that on average contain more combinations. (and thus because of the previous rules, happen more often but payout less.)

    An extreme example would be a single wheel slot with 100 symbols (lets assume the nrs 1->100). A setup with a variance of 0 would mean we define only one wincategory. If its a number you win 0.95*betsize. This would mean you win all the time, but have to pay house-edge on each bet.

    It would be a high variance slot if we say there's one wincategory with one combination : e.g. the number '1' wins 95. Both setups have the same reels, symbols, RNG and houseedge.

    Interesting sidenote here is that a variance of 0 means you can not get lucky, and are simply paying for entertainment. A very high variance means you can get lucky, but as the sample shows, you'll still be paying the same amount for the entertainment.
    Correct. There is no need for a casino to do this. Since they get to choose the reel size, layout and wincategories, they have all the tools they need to get a specific percentage at the desired variance.
    Correct, once again no motivation for the casino to do anything like that. It doesnt make a difference for the maths. House-edge is house-edge.
    Correct.

    In conclusion, yes you have pretty much answered your own question, and in the case of 3Dice you can safely assume that this is the exact scenario.
     
  8. Apr 9, 2007
  9. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    Excellent! Thank you 3Dice. :thumbsup:

    Any other reps want to speak to this question?

    Should I just assume that Microgaming (still) runs a fair slot by this definition? There are many seasoned members questioning it in many ways. I want to believe!

    Some former employees of RTG have stated that though the payback percentages are adjustable by the operators, they don't fall to anything as low as 80%. Does RTG operate a fair slot by these standards? What is the absolute maximum the house edge can be set to? Does it vascillate? Is it manipulated periodically?

    GV?

    Rival?

    Hype?

    Playtech or Crypto or other propriety platforms?
     
  10. Apr 9, 2007
  11. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    I can not prove it, but from my experiences online I believe all of those softwares have genuinely random slots, except RTG.

    As 3Dice so eloquently described, the return is set by a mathematical calculation based on the number of possible outcomes & the pay table. RTG are known to be able to change the overall return = impossible on a truly random slot unless they change either the pay-table, the number of symbols on one or more reels, or the percentage return of the bonus rounds.
    None of these options sits happily with me. :(
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Apr 9, 2007
  13. EasyRhino

    EasyRhino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Analyst
    Location:
    San Diego
    lojo, you seem to pretty much have it.

    I'll even go so far as to say that RTG slots are fair, within the one limitation that virtually all slot machines have: you don't know the payout percentage that they are set to, by the manufacturer, at the request of the operator.

    There's a lot of variability possible. You already said that truckstop and airport slots are extra-stingy (they are). And slots used in tournaments are often set looser than regular slots. Even if they all just appear to be the same Red White and Blue slot machine.

    But, within those confines of slot payouts being both a) unknown, and b) varying from 70% to 99%, I'd say they're fair. Most controversies about slots in the semi-recent past has had to due with relatively minor issues, like "near-miss" programming several years ago that specifically dropped high-value symbols near the payline on losing spins. Gaming has said they don't allow this any more, although manufacturers can still manufacture an unbiased slot that still seems tantalizingly close to big wins.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Apr 9, 2007
  15. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    I still get too many of those 'near misses' on three reel slots... my last two trips to Reno anyway. Maybe I'm just that almost lucky:D

    Your response made me think of 'Par' onland where one or two slots can be even above 100% payback, and others as low as allowed (75%?) As long as the whole average meets 98% the casino can legally say their slots pay out 98%.

    I had never considered that possibility with online slots, but if RTG really is the only platform that can be adjusted by operator... well that doesn't matter if they don't publish audited payout percentages. Some do? I thought I saw that in the RTG thread, I'll check.

    Be well and win:thumbsup:
     
  16. Apr 9, 2007
  17. lojo

    lojo Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht

    Occupation:
    Tradesman
    Location:
    USA
    I haven't experienced anything that I couldn't attribute to luck/chance/variance... but there has been quite a bit of speculation and grumbling going on.

    As for RTG I'd just like to know if, when, and how they adjust them. I want the damn thing to be the same tomorrow as it was today, and if it isn't I want to know the bottom line so I can make a rational decision to play or not.
     

Share This Page