Rizk Source of Wealth Bullshit!

Hi Mouche12,

Payslips or a Bank statement showing receipt of latest salary income are acceptable.

Br,
Daniel.


What about bank statement showing regular funds from a partner ? As im in position similar to mimi26 I have no bills but no income other than an "allowance" from partner.

I agree with what others have said this is definitely going to make a lot of people give up online gambling, me included, maybe this is what the UKGC really want all along.

I must admit I have already stopped depositing at a lot of sites for fear of a SOW trigger, and TBH its saved me loads so maybe not a bad thing after all :)
 
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Rizk Casino is an award winning Accredited Casino here at Casinomeister
What about bank statement showing regular funds from a partner ? As im in position similar to mimi26 I have no bills but no income other than an "allowance" from partner.

I agree with what others have said this is definitely going to make a lot of people give up online gambling, me included, maybe this is what the UKGC really want all along.

I must admit I have already stopped depositing at a lot of sites for fear of a SOW trigger, and TBH its saved me loads so maybe not a bad thing after all :)

It really wouldn't shock me if that was true.
 
They must believe they are being professional and thorough and that their approach is beyond critricism and will keep UKGC off their back, but I think in reality they are simply shooting themselves with a 12 bore in both feet and will haemorrhage customers in the long term as a result.
The 'approved' documents relating to an inheritance highlight Videoslots lack of knowledge in this area.Many people executing a simple will can do so themselves without the need to involve a solicitor so the letter from a notary they refer to will not exist. As for the copy of the will which ''must include the value of the estate'',this is also wrong in most cases.It is the Grant of Probate,not the will which shows the value of a deceased persons estate. As far as this particular SoW goes,they need to brush up on their facts.
 
They must believe they are being professional and thorough and that their approach is beyond critricism and will keep UKGC off their back, but I think in reality they are simply shooting themselves with a 12 bore in both feet and will haemorrhage customers in the long term as a result.
The 'approved' documents relating to an inheritance highlight Videoslots lack of knowledge in this area.Many people executing a simple will can do so themselves without the need to involve a solicitor so the letter from a notary they refer to will not exist. As for the copy of the will which ''must include the value of the estate'',this is also wrong in most cases.It is the Grant of Probate,not the will which shows the value of a deceased persons estate. As far as this particular SoW goes,they need to brush up on their facts.
 
Well, as I dealt with my dad's modest estate back in 2008, I can say with some certainty that had my brother wanted to use some of his half to play online NOW, he would have no way to prove the source of his "wealth" to the likes of Rizk and videoslots as the documents they give as examples do not exist in such a situation, or at least not in the form they would like. No solicitor was involved, and it was "letters of administration" as he died without leaving a will. The main "official" document was this "letters of administration", but this is granted to the person dealing with the estate, not the beneficiaries. A beneficiary would have to ask the person dealing with the estate to provide a "paper trail" for the money, and in the case of a DIY distribution, this WOULD cause the need for casinos to demand third party information, some of which would be covered by the GDPR. Part of the money trail, for example, would go via the DIY executor, and would of course include their name and address on any statements showing the flow of money.

Now, if we look at people who have won significant sums, but not progressives, there would be no "media coverage" nor "certificate of winnings". All there will be would be the withdrawal from the casino hitting the player's account. This may not necessarily directly identify the source as most casinos use intermediaries to take deposits and pay withdrawals, and it will be these intermediaries that would show on bank statements.

Some players may well be using substantial wins made years ago on games that got pulled and from casinos that no longer exist, so how the Purple Lounge would Videoslots expect such a player to prove where they won £17,000 on a couple of slots just weeks before they went bust, although such a win would have been mingled with others, and deposited and withdrawn numerous times in the years since.
 
Also ,if funds originate from a UK bank or payment wallet like Skrill or PayPal , they are all FCA licensed .

So why aren’t the banks or payment companies liable instead ?

If they think you are laundering money they shouldn’t process the payment to the casino.

How many times do you get fraud checks when buying normal stuff online ? I have had my cards stopped loads , but every casino payment has gone through without a hitch.

Why don’t the casinos accept that the bank where the money originated from has to to their own checks otherwise they are liable for laundering?
 
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Don't forget, probate forms don't have full details of the value of estate either, only an estimate, in fact, from memory, the grant of probate doesn't even have that, as it is to allow the person granted probate to deal with the estate.

Nor does a probate show how or where the estate is distributed to. When I dealt with my mother's estate, only my name was on the paperwork, and I distributed the cash by way of bank transfers.

Maybe someone could withdraw a tenner from Rizk, then ask them for a certificate of winnings, just to see what the response is. If they ask for them for SoW then it stands to reason they should issue them. Hopefully they issue it in the correct name of course.
 
Well, as I dealt with my dad's modest estate back in 2008, I can say with some certainty that had my brother wanted to use some of his half to play online NOW, he would have no way to prove the source of his "wealth" to the likes of Rizk and videoslots as the documents they give as examples do not exist in such a situation, or at least not in the form they would like. No solicitor was involved, and it was "letters of administration" as he died without leaving a will. The main "official" document was this "letters of administration", but this is granted to the person dealing with the estate, not the beneficiaries. A beneficiary would have to ask the person dealing with the estate to provide a "paper trail" for the money, and in the case of a DIY distribution, this WOULD cause the need for casinos to demand third party information, some of which would be covered by the GDPR. Part of the money trail, for example, would go via the DIY executor, and would of course include their name and address on any statements showing the flow of money.

Now, if we look at people who have won significant sums, but not progressives, there would be no "media coverage" nor "certificate of winnings". All there will be would be the withdrawal from the casino hitting the player's account. This may not necessarily directly identify the source as most casinos use intermediaries to take deposits and pay withdrawals, and it will be these intermediaries that would show on bank statements.

Some players may well be using substantial wins made years ago on games that got pulled and from casinos that no longer exist, so how the Purple Lounge would Videoslots expect such a player to prove where they won £17,000 on a couple of slots just weeks before they went bust, although such a win would have been mingled with others, and deposited and withdrawn numerous times in the years since.

Maybe its a european/maltese matter of fact approach, but the requesting of documents relating to wills etc.. must be in bad taste, I find it very distasteful IMO, I mean how much more intrusive can you get. If somebody is deranged and addicted enough to be using their inheritance money on playing slots or roulette, they need medical help or counselling not to pass a SOW check with a casino so they can carry on.
 
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Maybe its a european/maltese matter of fact approach, but the requesting of documents relating to wills etc.. is in bad taste, I find it very distasteful IMO, I mean how much more intrusive can you get. If somebody is deranged enough to be using their inheritance money on playing slots or roulette, they need medical help or counselling not to pass a SOW check with a casino so they can carry on.

To be fair, no one said you had to spend it all. You might be pretty comfortably off without it, and it might not be a huge amount either. Pretty sure at least a couple of my cousins went to bingo when they got the big $172 CAD from my uncle's estate.

People's finances are in constant flux, and this overlap between money laundering and responsible gambling seems to be getting pretty blurred.

Is losing maybe on average $1K a month (that would be a pretty high roller, or someone who never withdraws perhaps) be any less "responsible" use of disposible funds than dining out and attending concerts?

Also, in the case of many estates, if not most, the executor (or administrator) is one of or the sole beneficiary of the proceeds of the estate.

If you inherited funds 10 years ago, are they going to want to see how it's been spent over the past 10 years?

If you can provide documents sufficient to satisfy the tax people of income, I don't think it's right for casinos to demand more.
 
Don't forget, probate forms don't have full details of the value of estate either, only an estimate, in fact, from memory, the grant of probate doesn't even have that, as it is to allow the person granted probate to deal with the estate.

Nor does a probate show how or where the estate is distributed to. When I dealt with my mother's estate, only my name was on the paperwork, and I distributed the cash by way of bank transfers.

Maybe someone could withdraw a tenner from Rizk, then ask them for a certificate of winnings, just to see what the response is. If they ask for them for SoW then it stands to reason they should issue them. Hopefully they issue it in the correct name of course.
Probate does show the value of the estate and details of the person who is appointed to administer the estate.What it does not show is details of the beneficiaries of the will.To find that out,you have to look at the will itself.Therefore if you were going down this route for proof of SoW,I guess the casinos would want to see both the Grant of Probate and the Will.However this particular avenue is now becoming somewhat ghoulish so probably best to leave it there.
 
Maybe its a european/maltese matter of fact approach, but the requesting of documents relating to wills etc.. must be in bad taste, I find it very distasteful IMO, I mean how much more intrusive can you get. If somebody is deranged and addicted enough to be using their inheritance money on playing slots or roulette, they need medical help or counselling not to pass a SOW check with a casino so they can carry on.
Really? Why is someone who uses an inheritance for online gambling any more deranged or addicted than someone who blows most of their salary month after month. An inheritance is a source of income and it is up to the individual to decide how to use it in the same way as any other source of income.
 
To be fair, no one said you had to spend it all. You might be pretty comfortably off without it, and it might not be a huge amount either. Pretty sure at least a couple of my cousins went to bingo when they got the big $172 CAD from my uncle's estate.

People's finances are in constant flux, and this overlap between money laundering and responsible gambling seems to be getting pretty blurred.

Is losing maybe on average $1K a month (that would be a pretty high roller, or someone who never withdraws perhaps) be any less "responsible" use of disposible funds than dining out and attending concerts?

Also, in the case of many estates, if not most, the executor (or administrator) is one of or the sole beneficiary of the proceeds of the estate.

If you inherited funds 10 years ago, are they going to want to see how it's been spent over the past 10 years?

If you can provide documents sufficient to satisfy the tax people of income, I don't think it's right for casinos to demand more.

Yeah I see where your coming from a couple of quid is maybe neither here nor there, I would class going to bingo as a bit of a evening out, something sociable and different to spending the $172 on bonanza or raging rhino. I know once the money from an inheritance goes into your bank account, it gets mixed with everything else, but if a say an aunt left me £30, I would try and buy something to keep, a book or put the money towards something else. I inherited a £1000 from my nan, and I paid it into my bank, they never asked to see her last will and testament.
 
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Really? Why is someone who uses an inheritance for online gambling any more deranged or addicted than someone who blows most of their salary month after month. An inheritance is a source of income and it is up to the individual to decide how to use it in the same way as any other source of income.
I didn't say they were more deranged than someone who blows most of their salary month after month, they too are badly addicted and need some help to stop, otherwise they could end up destitute and on the street . Also I wasn't intending the use of the word 'deranged' in the strict medical sense, and I think casinos emailing customers to request copies of wills is getting close to deranged. As a former customs officer, you may have a different viewpoint and see the casino's approach as just a thorough investigation, the equivalent of a customs officer putting on the blue vinyl gloves.
 
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Probate does show the value of the estate and details of the person who is appointed to administer the estate.What it does not show is details of the beneficiaries of the will.To find that out,you have to look at the will itself.Therefore if you were going down this route for proof of SoW,I guess the casinos would want to see both the Grant of Probate and the Will.However this particular avenue is now becoming somewhat ghoulish so probably best to leave it there.

I'm fairly sure it doesn't, from memory it says 'the gross value of the estate does not exceed £xxxxx and the net value does not exceed £xxxx'. Same with letters of administration. I know when I went to the court to get it I was told just to put an estimate on the form, and then when it was all complete, I had to complete a detailed form for HMRC, with exact amounts.
As probate is granted before any sale of property or anything it would be impossible to put an exact figure down, as you could put a house up for sale for £150k, but sell it for £125k.
I might be wrong though as it was a few years ago and may have changed since I last did one.
 
I didn't say they were more deranged than someone who blows most of their salary month after month, they too are badly addicted and need some help to stop, otherwise they could end up destitute and on the street . Also I wasn't intending the use of the word 'deranged' in the strict medical sense, and I think casinos emailing customers to request copies of wills is getting close to deranged. As a former customs officer, you may have a different viewpoint and see the casino's approach as just a thorough investigation, the equivalent of a customs officer putting on the blue vinyl gloves.


Just imagine the uproar if the blue gloves went on for EVERY passenger, not just the few that look like they might be smugglers. This is effectively what casinos like Rizk seem to be doing, putting on the vinyl gloves for EVERY player, which is why there has been uproar on the forum.
 
I didn't say they were more deranged than someone who blows most of their salary month after month, they too are badly addicted and need some help to stop, otherwise they could end up destitute and on the street . Also I wasn't intending the use of the word 'deranged' in the strict medical sense, and I think casinos emailing customers to request copies of wills is getting close to deranged. As a former customs officer, you may have a different viewpoint and see the casino's approach as just a thorough investigation, the equivalent of a customs officer putting on the blue vinyl gloves.
Morally I agree with you and in no way am I supporting the casinos in their approach.However the fact remains that some people will cite an inheritance as their Source of Wealth and as the casinos are asking for wage slips,bank statements,Paypal account details,etc. they are not going to turn round and say 'as this is a sensitive issue we will take your word for it'.Individuals will have to decide if they are comfortable with and happy to provide documentary evidence.
It is deeply uncomfortable that this whole issue has caused us to descend into these sort of discussions but I cannot see any way that it will ever be resolved.
Btw the blue gloves were very fetching.They matched my eyes:D
 
I don't expect the rep to answer this, but how exactly does a casino verify a wage slip without contacting the employer? How do they verify a bank statement without confirmation from the bank that they are genuine transactions?

I'm not aware of any 3rd party who can verify the documents, so what is to stop someone who's laundering money from simply creating a fake document?

You might end up in a bizarre scenario were money launders have fully verified accounts were as the honest members of the public don't because they simply don't trust the casino with their private information.
 
Morally I agree with you and in no way am I supporting the casinos in their approach.However the fact remains that some people will cite an inheritance as their Source of Wealth and as the casinos are asking for wage slips,bank statements,Paypal account details,etc. they are not going to turn round and say 'as this is a sensitive issue we will take your word for it'.Individuals will have to decide if they are comfortable with and happy to provide documentary evidence.
It is deeply uncomfortable that this whole issue has caused us to descend into these sort of discussions but I cannot see any way that it will ever be resolved.
Btw the blue gloves were very fetching.They matched my eyes:D

Looking at your posts and mine from yesterday, I think maybe I was being abit hasty to judge the casinos asking for copies of wills as simply wrong full stop, as you said if a customer cites an inheritance payment as a source of wealth that they have then used to gamble, the casino could be justified in asking for further details and proof etc.., [provided though the amounts in question were not small.]

With your experience and knowledge from being a customs officer [hmrc] how big a problem do we have in the uk with money laundering, proceeds of crime; is it coming mainly from the selling of drugs and in your view will these SOW requests and the ukgc guidance work to keep criminal money out of the gambling industry?
 
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Looking at your posts and mine from yesterday, I think maybe I was being abit hasty to judge the casinos asking for copies of wills as simply wrong full stop, as you said if a customer cites an inheritance payment as a source of wealth that they have then used to gamble, the casino could be justified in asking for further details and proof etc.., [provided though the amounts in question were not small.]

With your experience and knowledge from being a customs officer [hmrc] how big a problem do we have in the uk with money laundering, proceeds of crime; is it coming mainly from the selling of drugs and in your view will these SOW requests and the ukgc guidance work to keep criminal money out of the gambling industry?

A will doesn't prove anything though, it doesn't have amounts, or even prove someone has died yet!

Regarding ML, its not just that, it can be benefit fraud or even not claiming benefits, but working cash in hand for some hours and not paying tax on it. However, if the funds are coming from a bank account then people must be extremely stupid, as they have paid them in, therefore there is a trace of them.
If it can only be withdrawn to the same place it came from then it pretty much wipes out money laundering concerns. If it comes from a bank, then they should be the ones doing the SOW checks if there is any suspicion about the funds.

You can quite easily money launder through someone like Coral though. Pay £1000 into your account, cash instore.
Deposit £10 using your bank card.
Withdraw £1000 using your bank card.
Questions, yeah I won it at Coral, look, theres the deposit, next day I got my winnings.
I've left a couple of steps out that you need to be 100% sure you won't get caught, to stop anyone doing it ;) but thats the basic principle.
 
Unfortunately i am not really in a position to answer that as i had to retire from the job on health grounds twenty years ago.It was then a separate Department (HM Customs and Excise) but they then merged with the Inland Revenue to form Revenue and Customs.Under the old guise, Customs and Excise were responsible for administering VAT and i spent a lot of my career on that side.I was the dreaded VAT Man! I was based at Dover for about three years and the vast majority of seizures were from people smuggling alcohol and tobaccco although there were also significant drug seizures.However this was in the 1990's when i am not even sure the term money laundering was being used.Certainly we were never made aware or made links between organised crime and money laundering but things were very different in those days.
 
Looking at your posts and mine from yesterday, I think maybe I was being abit hasty to judge the casinos asking for copies of wills as simply wrong full stop, as you said if a customer cites an inheritance payment as a source of wealth that they have then used to gamble, the casino could be justified in asking for further details and proof etc.., [provided though the amounts in question were not small.]

With your experience and knowledge from being a customs officer [hmrc] how big a problem do we have in the uk with money laundering, proceeds of crime; is it coming mainly from the selling of drugs and in your view will these SOW requests and the ukgc guidance work to keep criminal money out of the gambling industry?
When some DEA agents busted a Mexican drug cartel, ten years ago, without consulting their colleagues at the CIA and FBI, it precipitated the exposure of the Wells Fargo Bank money laundering scandal, which in turn caused a sudden shortage of liquidity in the credit markets, which hastened the 'credit crunch' crisis of 2008.

The credit crunch was on the cards anyway, because of all the bad loans, but this inadvertent DEA bust brought it forward somewhat, and made it a real crisis, even for our controllers. The point I am making is that the international banking system relies on drug money to keep the machine rolling forward. They just don't want the little guy to grab a piece of the action, because they don't like competition, basically, it erodes their margins.
 
would there really be any serious money launderers who are not using bitcoin or some other crypto currency,
 
Unfortunately i am not really in a position to answer that as i had to retire from the job on health grounds twenty years ago.It was then a separate Department (HM Customs and Excise) but they then merged with the Inland Revenue to form Revenue and Customs.Under the old guise, Customs and Excise were responsible for administering VAT and i spent a lot of my career on that side.I was the dreaded VAT Man! I was based at Dover for about three years and the vast majority of seizures were from people smuggling alcohol and tobaccco although there were also significant drug seizures.However this was in the 1990's when i am not even sure the term money laundering was being used.Certainly we were never made aware or made links between organised crime and money laundering but things were very different in those days.

They were the good old days, wish we could back to those times, things have gone downhill in many respects. Everything is hi technology nowdays with cybercrime, terrorists, drug dealers, knife crime, motoped scroats, absolute chaos and disorder.
 

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