River Belle bullshit

[thelawnet]

I have just gone to make a cashout at River Belle and in order to get my withdrawal I have to click a checkbox with the following notice

DISCLAIMER: As part of a promotional offer, we may elect to pay your winnings to a PaySpark ATM card. The card will take 3-5 days to arrive at the address you have specified above. Once you have activated your card online, you will be able to withdraw you winnings via any ATM. Future winnings can be paid to your PaySpark ATM card within 2 hours! No more waiting for checks to arrive and clear! The personal details I have provided are correct and I accept that incorrect details entered may result in my check being delayed or lost. A cancellation charge of 25 will be levied if my check is lost due to incorrect details being provided.

I refuse.

I do not want a Payspark ATM card.

I have no interest in a Payspark ATM card. Belle Rock can stick their useless Payspark ATM card up their behinds. I have a perfectly ATM card already from my bank, which is reputable and capitalised to the tune of billions of pounds. I do not know who or what Payspark is and I have no interest in finding out. I do not expect to be told that I might have to cashout to some crappy Payspark ATM card.

I want a cheque. I can take a cheque to my bank, hand it to the cashier, and the money will be in my account.

End of story.

And to make matters worse, I have gone to their site at www.riverbelle.com, clicked on the link for support and found that they have ditched their live help (probably because you could wait for hours and not get answered).

Fine, so I call their free phone number. Please enter your account number ---- cuts out.

Ring back.

'Welcome to Belle Rock. Please enter your account number followed by the hash key.'

Ok, enter account number.

'The other caller has cleared'

WTF?

They can't run their phone line properly.

This is not good enough.

Other people are unhappy about these worthless crappy Payspark cards as well:

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'I've just been advised by Belle Rock that as a limited time offer they have opened a payspark account for me and paid my winnings into the account rather than send me a cheque. Supposedly this allows me to receive the money faster, and I can then withdraw from ATM's - BUT they charge 2.25 per withdrawal, so it would seem to be an expensive privilege compared to receiving cheques, which in my experience have always been fairly quick.
Has anyone else used Payspark? Does it give extra bonuses for its use in casinos? In fact is there any advantage at all? Or would I be better to fire into Belle Rock and request a cheque as they were originally supposed to provide? '

...

'payspark charge you if your account is 'inactive' I think after three months? so don't leave money in there!'


...

'I guarantee they are making money out of this.

Payspark rang me tonight ! They have my name, address, email, phone number ! They may have more i guess they have everything they normally require to open an account so thats probably DOB too'


Sort it out Belle Rock. The glossy magazine I received this morning was very nice, but lose the bullshit 'payspark' card that I didn't ask for. If you want, feel free to send me spam about it, but don't force me to tick a checkbox in order to receive this piece of shit.

 

[caruso]

I have just gone to make a cashout at River Belle and in order to get my withdrawal I have to click a checkbox with the following notice

They could reasonably ask this BEFORE you accept the promo. After, they cannot. They are holding your money hostage. Hopefully, the Bellerock rep will stop by and explain this extraordinary turn of events.

I hope other MG casinos don't start pulling this.

 

[thelawnet]

They could reasonably ask this BEFORE you accept the promo. After, they cannot.

i didn't accept any promo

 

[scrollock]

I want a cheque. I can take a cheque to my bank, hand it to the cashier, and the money will be in my account.

if they are desperate for us to be recieving our winnings from an atm, why cant they pay them back to my bank account which they have done in the past or pay it back to the bank card i have used, which they have also done in the past.

i think this is very bad form from bellerock, theres lots of issues here.

but the major one for me, not only them using my personal details to open up an account on my behalf, but that my personal documents will have to be handed over to satisfy any anti-laundering laws or rules payspark has to abide by.

if that is the case, then i thinks theres a good chance that there is legal impications for BR doing this.

 

[Pinababy69]

Personally, I use nothing but Payspark for online gaming, for me it is convenient. But it may not be that way for everyone, and for the casino to insist you take your winnings this way, and especially to provide Payspark with all of your personal info, is totally unacceptable.

 

[elscrabinda]

I put my foot down and insisted on a cheque withdrawal. Eventually they seemed to agree to it but i'll keep an eye out for the card. Must be some hefty commision they're on!

 

[gmblpdam]

I just cashed out a nice chunk from River Belle, and they credited my Neteller within like 2-3 days I have nothing but good experiences with them.

 

[jetset]

Must be some hefty commision they're on!

That was my thought, too - why go to these lengths (and risk pissing off your clientele with an unwanted and almost enforced T&C) to promote a payment system that has been around for quite some time but does not seem to have really caught on. Is Carmen Media perhaps part of the ownership?

Either way this is unacceptable practice in my opinion - and the fact that Payspark has apparently been provided with the personal details of players without their permission or knowledge is very, very worrying in a privacy sense.

 

[satori]

I am not sure about the relationship between Belle Rock and Payspark but a couple years ago (when I became an affiliate for the Belle Rock group) they automatically signed me up for a Payspark card and sent it to me. I never made any affiliate income (am a very, very small affiliate). At the time I was told that Payspark was somehow related to Microgaming.. which is why you can't use it to deposit at non-Micro casinos. I have had both good and bad experiences using Payspark... some cashouts have taken more than a week to post, while others occur within 1 day.

 

[Casinomeister]

DISCLAIMER: As part of a promotional offer...

I'm guessing this is Bellerock's and not thelawnet's, correct? You stated you didn't use a promo when you played. So there shouldn't be any buried terms somewhere.

The folks at Bellerock have been notified about this thread, and I'm sure they'll be sorting this out soon. Payspark should be an option available to players, not force-fed to them.

 

[bellerock]

Hi All,

The use of the Payspark card is something we have been testing and encouraging to make the receipt of funds withdrawn from the casino simpler for our players. It is something that has been around for a while and has a proven track record, and no we don't own it Jetset.
That said however the manner in which we have gone about doing this has been clumsy and will be addressed. Should you not wish to receive or make use of a Payspark card you can opt out of receiving the card. Further to this the we are not providing Payspark with any more information than would be required for the issuing of a check during the promotion period, and I can assure you, you will not be receiving mail or other communication from Payspark.

I apologize for any confusion this may have caused, and emphasize that better service for our players is the driving force behind testing this product, and that a Payspark card will not be forced on you. If you have any further concerns or queries feel free to contact support, or PM me. Please note I may only get a chance to respond to your PMs on Monday.

Have a great weekend.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

 

[jetset]

Thanks for the clarification, and for again coming into the lion's den to give it, BelleRock!

Perhaps next time the manner in which this sort of thing is presented to the player community should be run past your more practised eye?

 

[thelawnet]

Hi All,

The use of the Payspark card is something we have been testing and encouraging to make the receipt of funds withdrawn from the casino simpler for our players. It is something that has been around for a while and has a proven track record, and no we don't own it Jetset.
That said however the manner in which we have gone about doing this has been clumsy and will be addressed. Should you not wish to receive or make use of a Payspark card you can opt out of receiving the card.

How? You still have to click the 'I accept having a Payspark card' in order to cashout. I can't see why this clause was not removed straight away.

It's just a web page, and could have been done immediately....

 

[scrollock]

Hi All,

The use of the Payspark card is something we have been testing and encouraging to make the receipt of funds withdrawn from the casino simpler for our players. It is something that has been around for a while and has a proven track record, and no we don't own it Jetset.
That said however the manner in which we have gone about doing this has been clumsy and will be addressed. Should you not wish to receive or make use of a Payspark card you can opt out of receiving the card. Further to this the we are not providing Payspark with any more information than would be required for the issuing of a check during the promotion period, and I can assure you, you will not be receiving mail or other communication from Payspark.

I apologize for any confusion this may have caused, and emphasize that better service for our players is the driving force behind testing this product, and that a Payspark card will not be forced on you. If you have any further concerns or queries feel free to contact support, or PM me. Please note I may only get a chance to respond to your PMs on Monday.

Have a great weekend.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

HI bellerock, can i just ask have you checked out the legal position on this, i'm no expert on gibraltan laws, but i am on uk laws, as far as i know UK laws count in GB unless they have been amended by the GB legislative (apparently called ordinaces,webcas or any other GB experts please intercede).

so the the two major concens i have is the data protection act

and whatever act it is that puts the most constricive controls on people opening up a bank account, something which has become infinitely difficult since 9/11

with gibraltar being one of the UK's last colonies and military outposts in the world, i somehow cant see that it would be so easy to open what is essentialy a bank account, let alone do it on someone elses behalf.

if this the case that this is perfectly legal, then beleive me in the world now with the shit that is going on it will soon be changed.

i'm sorry BR, as you know i keep my feedback to you privately, but if this true that you are opening up accounts on other peoples behalf then you are bang out of order.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Payspark

I received a "free" Payspark account and checked it out. I believe it is not that appropriate for non US players, and the fee to withdraw the winnings rather than redeposit them is a deterrent to its use. I have also been allowed a Payspark account in Dollars, and an ATM acount in GBP. Since I use GBP at MG casinos, the dollar account is no use at all. The measly 5 promotional amount paid to the ATM Card (again BelleRock), can be neither withdrawn nor deposited. I have decided to allow it to "wither on the vine" so to speak.
BelleRock did not force me to accept withdrawal via Payspark at the time, and I hope they realise this promotion is simply not appropriate for many non US residents who are easily able to use bank accounts and debit/credit cards (unlike US residents). I expect the reason behind this is to cut the cost to them of sending a cheque. If they are prepared to comp for the 2-25 withdrawal fee all well and good, but I think they only comp for redepositing the funds back into a BelleRock casino.

 

[bellerock]

Hi All,

Thank you for the feedback regarding Payspark. As a result of your input we have decided to pull down the test that we have been running completely until such time as we can offer a more complete solution that includes an opt-out option up front. At this point we will communicate more clearly with the players and those that do not wish to participate can easily opt-out without delaying their withdrawal.

Thanks again for the feedback and I hope this did not inconvenience anybody.

Jetset, thanks for the vote of confidence.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

 

[PeggyTez]

Hi All,

Thank you for the feedback regarding Payspark. As a result of your input we have decided to pull down the test that we have been running completely until such time as we can offer a more complete solution that includes an opt-out option up front. At this point we will communicate more clearly with the players and those that do not wish to participate can easily opt-out without delaying their withdrawal.

Thanks again for the feedback and I hope this did not inconvenience anybody.

Jetset, thanks for the vote of confidence.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

Wow, even though I've not had this problem, I am impressed that you are taking this so seriously to make this kind of decision. I've always like BelleRock casinos and this makes me like them even more. Kudo's to Bellerock for truly listening.

 

[mary]

I'm glad Belle Rock backed down, but I want to emphasize:

This is a completely unacceptable violation of a player's privacy.

It boggles my mind that they think they have any right (never mind thinking that it's a favor) to sign up anybody with a financial transaction service of any sort without that person's express permission.

This is a shocking attitude to take. You deposit money at an online casino, boom, they'll sign you up for credit cards and foreign baniking accounts, no regard for your privacy, for the tax and legal implications you may incur in your home jurisdiction, the money-laundering reporting, etc. etc. etc. US citizens are obliged to report all foreign bank accounts to the IRS: this can trigger an audit: they can be fined for *failing* to report such an account.

How comfortable should any US player feel if online casinos all over the world happily create such accounts as a *favor*?

 

[tryme1]

I can kinda understanding the original thinking behind this promo. After all, it is in the online casinos interests to see lots of payment wallet type solutions succeed. It's in players interests also.

However, the critical phrase that causes concern here is 'opt-out'. Businesses (of all types, not just online casinos) should encourage, incentivize (bribe ?) customers to OPT-IN to promotions. They shouldn't be relying on their customers to OPT-OUT as this ultimately causes resentment, bad feeling and so forth.

If you can't give reasons why your client base should opt-in to a promotion, then - to be honest - you shouldn't be running the promotion at all. Either it has value or it doesn't. Opting people in by default isn't a solution.

Indeed, under current UK law, opting someone in to a mailing list or promotion by default is actually illegal. I'm aware it's not illegal in the US and many other countries.

Conclusion: give players positive reasons for playing at your casino. Don't take them for granted.

 

[jetset]

However, the critical phrase that causes concern here is 'opt-out'. Businesses (of all types, not just online casinos) should encourage, incentivize (bribe ?) customers to OPT-IN to promotions. They shouldn't be relying on their customers to OPT-OUT as this ultimately causes resentment, bad feeling and so forth.

If you can't give reasons why your client base should opt-in to a promotion, then - to be honest - you shouldn't be running the promotion at all. Either it has value or it doesn't. Opting people in by default isn't a solution.

Indeed, under current UK law, opting someone in to a mailing list or promotion by default is actually illegal. I'm aware it's not illegal in the US and many other countries.

Conclusion: give players positive reasons for playing at your casino. Don't take them for granted.

Good post, TryMe1 - I agree, and I hope Bellerock and others take this on board. It also has resonance when it comes to spamming lists. Player privacy is an absolute right that is non-negotiable; especially on the Internet.

 

[twiddles]

I'm glad Belle Rock backed down, but I want to emphasize:

This is a completely unacceptable violation of a player's privacy.

It boggles my mind that they think they have any right (never mind thinking that it's a favor) to sign up anybody with a financial transaction service of any sort without that person's express permission.

This is a shocking attitude to take. You deposit money at an online casino, boom, they'll sign you up for credit cards and foreign baniking accounts, no regard for your privacy, for the tax and legal implications you may incur in your home jurisdiction, the money-laundering reporting, etc. etc. etc. US citizens are obliged to report all foreign bank accounts to the IRS: this can trigger an audit: they can be fined for *failing* to report such an account.

How comfortable should any US player feel if online casinos all over the world happily create such accounts as a *favor*?

The fact that the casino responded is very admirable, we should all be hopefull that other casino's address players concerns. I understand your stance on security and agree with you, the issue has now been resolved. Well done Belle Rock.

 

[tombomb]

LOL

Wow, even though I've not had this problem, I am impressed that you are taking this so seriously to make this kind of decision. I've always like BelleRock casinos and this makes me like them even more. Kudo's to Bellerock for truly listening.

now thats funny! do a search of my posts and read about my experieces with bellerock.It will give you a good picture of their customer service.By the way I am no longer a customer of theirs.

 

[twiddles]

now thats funny! do a search of my posts and read about my experieces with bellerock.It will give you a good picture of their customer service.By the way I am no longer a customer of theirs.

Situations can change, I am sure that the bad experiences you had were not encouraging. But like I said situations can change, maybe they took your posts and used the information constructively?

 

[sripal32]

Opt-out or Opt-in ?

Hi All,

At this point we will communicate more clearly with the players and those that do not wish to participate can easily opt-out without delaying their withdrawal.

Thanks again for the feedback and I hope this did not inconvenience anybody.

Instead of opt-out, wouldn't it be better if you have a Opt-In policy?

Players who want to cashout through payspark would opt in and it would leave the rest of us to play the way we do without additional effort.

 

[scrollock]

Hi All,

The use of the Payspark card is something we have been testing and encouraging to make the receipt of funds withdrawn from the casino simpler for our players. It is something that has been around for a while and has a proven track record, and no we don't own it Jetset.
That said however the manner in which we have gone about doing this has been clumsy and will be addressed. Should you not wish to receive or make use of a Payspark card you can opt out of receiving the card. Further to this the we are not providing Payspark with any more information than would be required for the issuing of a check during the promotion period, and I can assure you, you will not be receiving mail or other communication from Payspark.

I apologize for any confusion this may have caused, and emphasize that better service for our players is the driving force behind testing this product, and that a Payspark card will not be forced on you. If you have any further concerns or queries feel free to contact support, or PM me. Please note I may only get a chance to respond to your PMs on Monday.

Have a great weekend.

Best regards,

Belle Rock

nice one bellerock, as always you listen to the public and do the right thing