Rivals dropping like flies

[felicie]

The problem was that this "noise" was not enough to counter the PR from the operator, and many players still got caught out.

I DID notice their dumping into the Rogue pit, and that was enough for me to strike them from my list of potential places to play. There didn't seem to be a continuing problem attracting continual new threads of complaint UNTIL it was too late, and they were effectively already bust.

I remember TUSK earlier, there WERE indications of problems when eCogra pulled their seals, but firstly eCogra could say nothing more in the way of clarification, and a TUSK rep came to the forum to assure players it was merely an "administrative issue", which would NOT affect players at all.

Even I was fooled, since after a week of caution, I could see nothing going wrong, and on my first withdrawals after they folded, I was paid promptly as normal using their "instant Neteller payment" option. They folded mere HOURS after my last payment, and I discovered this because MGS had disabled the cashier, and NOT because anybody from TUSK could be arsed to inform players.

Since then, we have to take even the slightest sign of things going wrong as a warning that a casino might be going bust, and Rival was spitting out PLENTY of such signs, and had been for months. Despite this, those that questioned whether Rival were OK were told they didn't really know what they were talking about, and operators assured players that funding was not an issue, it was just a run of "technical problems" that created this impression.

It seems there WAS a funding issue all along, now admitted to by the CEO of Rival, and this has lead to many operators pulling the plug, leaving Rival to underwrite the debts owed, which Rival said they will honour.

We still have to be sure that Rival are ABLE to honour all this bad debt, as this promise will be worth little if Rival themselves are forced under by the weight of debt from the failed White Labels.

Better protection for player deposits is something this industry needs to put in place, so that even if there are signs that a particular operator has funding issues, players can continue to deposit and play in the full knowledge that their balances are insured against operator failure. This could make the difference between an operator going under because players have been scared off, and managing to turn things around with help, and the continued support of their regular players.

I certainly would have thought twice about playing at absolute slots had I known they were going to disappear 2 weeks later? or change their name or whatever they did. There was a "Nathan' there also.

 

[vinylweatherman]

At Eurolinx/BetOnBet there was cashout requests made months before they folded that never were paid. And some players tried to contact MG when problems started in May 09.

And TUSK only paid 10k/week, so to cashout 6 figure rolls it took quite some time. Fore example Ozzy87 made a 500k cashout request in Oct 07 and was only paid 180k before they busted.

So usually when you see that something is wrong its too late. So far the licensing jurisdictions have failed miserabely in setting up anything that would protect players balances when a casino/poker room/sportsbook goes bust.

A reason why I almost exclusively play at PLCs

Despite this restriction, they became accredited, and earned the eCogra seal. There was a mere 2 weeks between the first real warning that something had gone wrong (eCogra pulled the seals), and them going bust. They WERE at least paying out on the 10K per week right to the very end.

The warnings about Eurolinx were knocking around, but they were dismissed as the ramblings of those who dreamed up "conspiracy theories" by the operator, and thus they were able to keep some players depositing and playing. Most of the complaints seem to have come from the Poker side, and casino players hardly noticed things were going badly wrong. Only when Bryan introduced a warning did the news reach me from a more credible source, and there was no way I would be convinced that an official CM warning was "the ramblings of a conspiracy theorist".

The problem now is that the rest of the industry is under more detailed scrutiny from players unwilling to be bitten again, or in some cases, for a third time. Even the slightest signs of funding stress has players worried, even though on many occasions the excuses given by the operators turn out to be true, rather than cynical PR to keep the deposits flowing in the hope of trading out of a "bust" position.

Rival would probably not have suffered as much from loss of player confidence had the high profile TUSK and Eurolinx failures not left players high and dry, with some nursing 6 figure losses.

The commitment from the CEO of Rival to honour outstanding payments due from failed white labels could well save Rival from total failure due to this crisis, since players know that their deposits are guaranteed by Rival, something which CANNOT be said of the other softwares, not even the mighty Microgaming offers protection of player balances.

Once the badly run white labels have been weeded out, the core of well run white labels, plus the independents, should be able to retain and recruit players.

 

[Tengil]

Despite this restriction, they became accredited, and earned the eCogra seal. There was a mere 2 weeks between the first real warning that something had gone wrong (eCogra pulled the seals), and them going bust. They WERE at least paying out on the 10K per week right to the very end.

The warnings about Eurolinx were knocking around, but they were dismissed as the ramblings of those who dreamed up "conspiracy theories" by the operator, and thus they were able to keep some players depositing and playing. Most of the complaints seem to have come from the Poker side, and casino players hardly noticed things were going badly wrong. Only when Bryan introduced a warning did the news reach me from a more credible source, and there was no way I would be convinced that an official CM warning was "the ramblings of a conspiracy theorist".

The problem now is that the rest of the industry is under more detailed scrutiny from players unwilling to be bitten again, or in some cases, for a third time. Even the slightest signs of funding stress has players worried, even though on many occasions the excuses given by the operators turn out to be true, rather than cynical PR to keep the deposits flowing in the hope of trading out of a "bust" position.

Rival would probably not have suffered as much from loss of player confidence had the high profile TUSK and Eurolinx failures not left players high and dry, with some nursing 6 figure losses.

The commitment from the CEO of Rival to honour outstanding payments due from failed white labels could well save Rival from total failure due to this crisis, since players know that their deposits are guaranteed by Rival, something which CANNOT be said of the other softwares, not even the mighty Microgaming offers protection of player balances.

Once the badly run white labels have been weeded out, the core of well run white labels, plus the independents, should be able to retain and recruit players.

They better honour outstanding payments as they run the whole payment processing among other things. They are basically in the role that TUSK was, if they hadnt gone under neither would the poker skins and the casinos have. So its not exactly the same as Linx Group which was independent and not a whitelabel of Microgaming. So if MG would offer whitelabel solutions in the same way as Rival does I dont doubt for a second that they wouldnt do exactly the same.
Worth to note that Rival doesnt guarantee balances for the individual casinos. So they arent different than any other software provider in how players balances are protected.

And some more OT about Linx Group. BetOnBet was aquired by Eurolinx in February 09 (or March). Most Finnish players for example played at BOB (a quick summary brought me +500k owed to Finns, mostly from BOB) and some didnt even know it was bought by Eurolinx. And there was never a single warning anywhere about BOB.

And its a bit exaggerating saying that there would have been warnings about Eurolinx before things started to south in late May 09 (even tough the problems not known by outsiders had started a year before).
As can be seen by a post made by WiltOnTilt who lost +200k: the whole thing is so disgusting...especially since as soon as we realized there were problems (late may), it was already much too late. It sounds like it was also too late for you the day you made him the loan, and of course you had no way of knowing any better either.
And players had succesfully cashed out six figure rolls after the incident here at CM.

So my point is that I dont give credit to Rival for doing something that is industry standard.

 

[BingoT]

Superalberto has been paid
Thank You 21grand.
~T~

Hy Bingot, Finally i was paid yesterday night!!!
Thanks for all....
Have a good time!
Bye!

 

[DiamondGeezer]

I see the Rival situation being quite different from Eurolinx. The big difference is Rival only operate casinos. If you operate poker and sports the situation is a lot more complicated.

If you take the Eurolinx situation (I am guessing now) but I presume there were a lot of very favourable rakeback deals going on. I mean there has to be a reason why elite players were keeping 500K balances there. I remember when BetonBet launched in the Uk the bonuses were so generous they became a standing joke. It was well known in the Uk it would only be a matter of when and not if BetonBet failed. But that was based on opinion of them as a stand alone operation.

Usually with these combined operations it's the sportsbook or poker that brings them down either through unsustainable rakeback inducements or a sportsbook getting arbed into oblivion. And when it is the sportsbook they won't find out until it's too late. It's incredible how fast it can happen if they take their eye off the ball.

Again it is pure speculation but you would think their core casinos would be highly profitable. Yes they have isues with the white labels but they should have a successful core business plus some very solid assets in the software.

I really can't see how they could be strugling unless there is a huge accounting black hole that has built up over years. But sometimes good business go down due to the banks/lenders. It's not always the bad guys that fail.

 

[jetset]

Some very good points made by Diamond Geezer here, imo.

Operators sometimes make disastrous decisions - often on issues like rakeback and promos, the latter especially when it comes to online casinos that should, as DG observes, be profitable.

Unfortunately these can obliterate a company and the poor bloody player is left suffering the consequences.