Rival & Canada

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Balthazar

The Governor
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Woodbury
So I've been looking for this story for the past 3 hours on Google and on CM (no joke). I know it's an old story for most of you but I'd appreciate if someone could tell me what really happened with Rival in 2009. I could find bits of infos buried in huge threads but couldn't find that single post or article that I was looking for with the whole story in it.

Here's what I could find:
-Some company in Montreal sued Rival (for what?) and claimed that a lot (most? all?) of Rival casinos were owned by the same group operating under different entities.
-Rival lost in court (several hundreds of thousands of $)
-Since then (I think?) Rival is no longer accepting Canadian players
-There's something with gambling laws in Canada that don't authorize Canadian casino owners to operate in Canada and to allow Canadians to play.

As you can see, there's still a lot of the story missing. :confused:

Thanks in advance.
 

Balthazar

The Governor
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Location
Woodbury
We can play. it's neither legal nor illegal; more, decriminalized. No, Canadians cannot play Rival. It's purely Rival being pissy amd disallowing Canadians.

We used to be able to play Rival and this whole story have something to do with the fact that we can't anymore. That's part of the reason why I'm asking details about what happened.
 

Balthazar

The Governor
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Location
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Did you read this thread (it has some links in it also...)...

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rival-casinos-pull-out-of-canada.29237/

Also, maybe send a PM to jetset, he's a writer for Infopowa. He may know where you can obtain the information you are looking for...

Thanks ksech. I learned that they banned Canadian players while they were still in court and if I read between the lines, they banned us in part because the software developer was in Canada (and accepting Canadian players could possibly cause them some trouble). Still don't know exactly why they were sued and what's the deal with the enigmatic "company 6300511 Canada Inc" (aka "Bonne Chance"?) owned by those 4 mysterious individuals.

I don't want to bother Jetset with PM's as I believe that if he or anyone else that is aware of the whole thing and wants to post it here he/she will do it.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
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Location
Ontario
I received some spam from Sunset Slots (a bonne chance company). They say they are accepting Canadians, but don't offer bonuses to Canada. Their website even sports a Canadian Flag as part of their language banner.
 

Balthazar

The Governor
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Woodbury
I received some spam from Sunset Slots (a bonne chance company). They say they are accepting Canadians, but don't offer bonuses to Canada. Their website even sports a Canadian Flag as part of their language banner.
That's pretty weird. Bonus banning Canadians but allowing them to play doesn't make much sense. More mysteries.
 

me_and_ed

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
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MM
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Location
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I received some spam from Sunset Slots (a bonne chance company). They say they are accepting Canadians, but don't offer bonuses to Canada. Their website even sports a Canadian Flag as part of their language banner.

These guys are idiots, they have absolutely no idea what they speak, this was posted months back, they do not accpt Canadians, there is not even a Canada option in the dropdown. I finally got to the bottom of it way back when, the manager finally respoded and told me no Canadians, even if they did I would not deposit a cent there.
 

Balthazar

The Governor
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Aug 14, 2012
Location
Woodbury
These guys are idiots, they have absolutely no idea what they speak, this was posted months back, they do not accpt Canadians, there is not even a Canada option in the dropdown. I finally got to the bottom of it way back when, the manager finally respoded and told me no Canadians, even if they did I would not deposit a cent there.

Went there and it's true, though. There's a Canadian flag and Canada is bonus banned but not country banned in the T&C. The site has probably not been updated since 2008. Scary.
 

me_and_ed

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
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MM
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Location
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Went there and it's true, though. There's a Canadian flag and Canada is bonus banned but not country banned in the T&C. The site has probably not been updated since 2008. Scary.

I hear ya, been down this road, I used to play Rival quite a bit and personally know the previous affililiate manager for Paradise, Cocoa, DaVinci's etc....They used to be good, run promo's and get paid in pretty quick time. I woud love to play Rival again.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Ya, I used to play the daily free spins at Sunset; then I was locked out. Went to live chat, they said no Canadians allowed.

Went to not so live chat the other day, it just appeared to end as soon as I submitted my question. But I received an email saying accepts Canadians, but not eligible for bonuses.

While I enjoyed playing Rival, I'm not willing to take a risk of having an Ooops, no winnings for you, here's your deposit back. Since they are Silverstone (owned by Bonne Chance), I can't see why they would have any different rules to be honest. Although I did read the terms and conditions and couldn't find an actual clause saying Canada can't play. They really mean no bonuses though, there's 13 separate clauses prohibiting us from various bonuses.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
This story goes back to January 2009, and was covered in Casinomeister News.

The Montreal company was T2 Marketing, which launched civil litigation in the Quebec Superior Court (Civil Division) on Case No: 500-17-046150-085 naming several allegedly known Rival associates, including Rival itself, Black Chip, Gaming Solutions and Unified Support Systems to a software outfit titled 6300511 Canada Inc and four specific Canadian individuals in, I think it was, Ottawa.

I can't recall seeing the results, but I do remember that a Rival exec denied that Black Chip was involved, and denied the allegations.

The case involved a contractual dispute, if memory serves.
 

Balthazar

The Governor
Joined
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Location
Woodbury
This story goes back to January 2009, and was covered in Casinomeister News.

The Montreal company was T2 Marketing, which launched civil litigation in the Quebec Superior Court (Civil Division) on Case No: 500-17-046150-085 naming several allegedly known Rival associates, including Rival itself, Black Chip, Gaming Solutions and Unified Support Systems to a software outfit titled 6300511 Canada Inc and four specific Canadian individuals in, I think it was, Ottawa.

I can't recall seeing the results
, but I do remember that a Rival exec denied that Black Chip was involved, and denied the allegations.

Rival had to pay nearly $500,000 to T2.

The case involved a contractual dispute, if memory serves.

Yes, the details of that dispute is what I'm still looking for but it's not easy to find them online. Not that it matters that much, because it appears that the banning of Canadian players is not directly related to this case.

While reading old threads, I noticed that no one linked the fact that Irish Luck tried to pull the bonus Progressive scam in the same time frame (a little earlier) than when Rival got ordered to pay a hefty amount of money to T2. While people linked Irish Luck ownership with Rival owners, no one seems to have linked those 2 stories together. They were the same people, and one side of the business needed a big sum of money, fast. To me, it was a bit of an elephant-in-the-room case, but I guess that's just me :)

Oh well, I'm a little late to come to the party with my tinfoil hat.

Thanks for the reply jetset!
 

me_and_ed

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
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Went to not so live chat the other day, it just appeared to end as soon as I submitted my question. But I received an email saying accepts Canadians, but not eligible for bonuses.

While I enjoyed playing Rival, I'm not willing to take a risk of having an Ooops, no winnings for you, here's your deposit back. Since they are Silverstone (owned by Bonne Chance), I can't see why they would have any different rules to be honest. Although I did read the terms and conditions and couldn't find an actual clause saying Canada can't play. They really mean no bonuses though, there's 13 separate clauses prohibiting us from various bonuses.

I had the same responses from them, the question is when you join there is no Canada country option, when I addressed this with them originally they said register through the flash site, no Canada in the drop down there either.
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
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Just a side note on Sunset Slots (Rival). USA player, signed up new in April or so. Took them 3.5 months and a jillion emails to pay out via wire transfer. No idea if they're out of the pickel that caused the mess (ye olde 'technical problems'), but I'm sure not going try them again to find out. ;) And I would dearly love to find a Rival that is dependable and pays out without a hassle and long wait, and takes USA players.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
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Location
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FTR: Rival people have contacted us and asked that this thread be deleted because it is "damaging to the companies named, factually incorrect, and therefore considered slander."

So reader beware, facts herein may be incorrect. I'll leave it to Bryan to take whatever action he thinks is appropriate.
 

Seventh777

RIP Roy
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Planet Tharg, dark side, where nothing grows.
FTR: Rival people have contacted us and asked that this thread be deleted because it is "damaging to the companies named, factually incorrect, and therefore considered slander."

So reader beware, facts herein may be incorrect. I'll leave it to Bryan to take whatever action he thinks is appropriate.

They are incorrect such as slander is defamation by spoken, libel is written :p.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
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FTR: Rival people have contacted us and asked that this thread be deleted because it is "damaging to the companies named, factually incorrect, and therefore considered slander."

So reader beware, facts herein may be incorrect. I'll leave it to Bryan to take whatever action he thinks is appropriate.
Typical Rival response. :(
They don't say exactly WHAT they are unhappy about - so how are we supposed to know which part of which post(s) is supposedly inaccurate? :confused:
If they are so worried about this, why don't they step up to the plate and issue a full statement of what the TRUTH is - then maybe people wouldn't feel the need to speculate.

And why do you need to say "Reader beware"? "Facts" in just about every thread on every subject in this forum may be incorrect - virtually nothing comes straight from the software suppliers or the casinos. Rival are by no means the exception to the rule.

KK
 

Balthazar

The Governor
Joined
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Location
Woodbury
FTR: Rival people have contacted us and asked that this thread be deleted because it is "damaging to the companies named, factually incorrect, and therefore considered slander."

Slander?
How about they step up and tell us what is "factually correct" instead of asking to delete the thread to sweep everything under the rug. Everything that I wrote in the OP, I found it on Google. I also asked if anyone could fill the holes because some parts of the story were missing.

It might or might not be true, but I didn't make anything up and everything can be found "out there".

Edit: after reading the thread again, I found that my irish luck comment could be deleted since it's pure speculation. I can't edit it though so if someone wants to remove it for me that would be ok.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
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Casinomeister

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I'm on the road at the moment, so my online time is quite limited.

As far as I am concerned this thread is a discussion - and it refers to other sources. No one from Casinomeister is making accusations (false or otherwise), thus this is protected speech.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
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Location
United Kingdom
If what is posted is true, it is not libel.

The USA also has some pretty wide ranging rights to "free speech", so much so that companies dread taking a libel action in the US because of the constitutional right to free speech defence being so strong.

One thing is FACT, Canadian players were suddenly booted out of Rival, yet US players were not only allowed in, but positively encouraged. The UIGEA was in force at the time, yet Canada had no equivalent laws, certainly nothing that could be even scarier than UIGEA and the single minded determination of the DoJ to do everything in it's power to shut down the entire industry.

Speculation surrounded what was so damn scary that Canadian players had to be dumped at once, and the only thing that seemed scary enough was the court case referred to in this thread. What happened in this case would be on court records, and would be accepted as fact, even if Rival disagree with the courts determination.

The impression gained is that Rival are trying to deny the "bleedin' obvious", so anything else they may say is also taken with a pinch of salt. Even if they came clean about the whole episode, there is still a chance not everybody will believe it.

Deleting a single thread on this forum is about as effective as the seizure of all data on Megaupload is in stopping piracy in it's tracks.

If Rival wanted to sue for libel, they would have to specify which content they consider libellous, and the defendant would merely have to prove it to be grounded in fact, or reposted in good faith from a source considered reputable. If it has been in Casinomeister news, it has been on Infopowa, and it would end up being Rival vs Infopowa. The last thing Rival surely want is to sue a bunch of journalists who will have to research this story some more in order to mount a defence, unless of course it really is a figment of some reporter's imagination, and nothing to do with the facts.
 

Balthazar

The Governor
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Woodbury
One thing is FACT, Canadian players were suddenly booted out of Rival, yet US players were not only allowed in, but positively encouraged. The UIGEA was in force at the time, yet Canada had no equivalent laws, certainly nothing that could be even scarier than UIGEA and the single minded determination of the DoJ to do everything in it's power to shut down the entire industry.

The law regarding online gambling in Canada is vague when the casino ownership is outside of Canada. If the casino operators are Canadians and they are operating in Canada, it falls under the regular gambling laws (just like land based casinos) and it's illegal.

So IF those 4 individuals are Canadians (and it appears that they are), and they own most/all of the rival casinos (this is where the speculation resides), they cannot operate in Canada. When T2 went to court with Rival, it seems that they revealed that those 4 people were behind the ownership of all the Rival casinos and Canadian players got the boot.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
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Location
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I believe that the court records stand as solid information in this case, but there are other sources.

As other posters have noted here, if Rival is throwing its own very general accusations around it needs to be far more specific than a shotgun accusation of inaccuracy.
 
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