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Responsiblity?

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by bb28, Sep 12, 2009.

    Sep 12, 2009
  1. bb28

    bb28 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    US
    There is a thread here at CM that brings up some things that asks some questions as to what responsiblity lies with a casino when a poster has publically admitted a gambling problem. It is this thread here that brings this up.
    First I'm not picking on you Heidisue, this post is more aimed at questioning responsiblity of the casino mentioned. :)

    In that thread Heidisue complained of non response of management and of not receiving what she felt was adequate compensation for her losses. She stated in her post that she had lost $15,000 betting pennies. When I first read her post, some alarm bells starting ringing about a possible gambling problem due to the content of this and her other previous posts.
    Part of what I'm going to say next is partly assumptions but I feel it does make sense. I think management see's Heidi as a big PIA, which explains the lack of response to her emails and the other issues she complained about. It seems to me that they should also see some yellow flags about a possible problem due to her playing style, amount of deposits, ect.. but yet they have kept her account open and continued taking her money. I ask.....isn't there something wrong with this? Shouldn't a casino be more responsible? Granted Heidi didn't admit a problem until later in the thread but come on......I saw the flags and surely they are a lot more schooled in seeing them than I am.

    To me......this just smells really, really bad.
     
    10 people like this.
  2. Sep 12, 2009
  3. GGW Laurie

    GGW Laurie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Self Employed
    Location:
    In the Beautiful South !!
    Good post Bonita, i still feel the casino is not taking any actions what so ever in trying to answer the players questions, lets face it 15k would rake up alot of comps, thats my main issue, where's the comps, kinda like that old commercial " where's the beef", TIV has yet given any explanation and if the shoe was on anyones elses foot, they would be livid, i know i would be ..........laurie
     
    2 people like this.
  4. Sep 12, 2009
  5. bw2006

    bw2006 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Outside Sales Representative
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Wow - I am completely blown away at this topic. I too saw those flags when reading the earlier posts and you are probably exactly right about why the casino is not returning any emails. There is no excuse for this. I love to play online and there have been a few times when I had to pull myself back and take a look at how I was playing for fear it was getting a little out of hand. No, it is not the casinos responsibility to watch my gameplay but if they have a customer who has deposited and lost $15,000 in one month and even with complaints against the casino goes and deposits more, this is a sure sign of something and the casino by all means should recognize and take action. I know that online casinos have to close your account if you ask them to but do they have any other guidelines they have to follow if they suspect someone is in trouble?
     
    2 people like this.
  6. Sep 12, 2009
  7. just play

    just play closed account

    Occupation:
    Director of Home Operations
    Location:
    USA
    But how do you know she doesn't have millions and millions of dollars, and this is what she does with her free time?

    I'm not saying one who gambles that much does have millions, but no one knows her or anyone elses situation, including the casino. I can't believe how much some of you spend on online gambling, it really blows my mind, my husband and I talk about it quite often, asking ourselves what do these people do for work?

    People where I live use "I'm addicted" very loosely...it doesn't mean one is actually "addicted". I remember a thread a while back where someone mentioned he was "addicted" to a particual casino in their chat, and they locked his account, and he was using the term loosely as people around my parts do.

    Onto the casino, how does that casino know what kind of money she has? And I agree with Laurie 100% on this...
    Why haven't they answered her emails is really strange? I thought they were one of the good guys, so to speak?
     
    4 people like this.
  8. Sep 12, 2009
  9. bb28

    bb28 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    US
    As to why they haven't answered, that provides a clue in itself, they don't want to deal with her, but yet at the same time, they sure don't mind taking her money. Also......why would a player keep going back and depositing when she feels so mistreated? That's another sign of a problem and the casino turning a blind eye to it.
     
    3 people like this.
  10. Sep 12, 2009
  11. GGW Laurie

    GGW Laurie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Self Employed
    Location:
    In the Beautiful South !!
    This is true Bonita, but isnt it up to the player to make that choice for themselves? It shouldnt be up to a casino or forum members to say unless she comes right out and asks for help point blank, we are not in her shoes, so we cant know what she is thinking.

    There are many on this forum, who have quit, on their own and i admire that, yet there are others here who like to" talk the talk but not walk the walk". You cant understand someone till you have walked in their shoes and if she needs help, there are many here who will help her.

    I admire you for taking a stand on getting the casinos to quit turning a "blind eye" but doubt them doing anything imo...........laurie
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Sep 12, 2009
  13. just play

    just play closed account

    Occupation:
    Director of Home Operations
    Location:
    USA

    That's what is VERY strange!!! Why DON'T they want to deal with her? They have a big time depositer but don't want to acknowledge her? Unless she is telling them to go blow or something, it doesn't make sense?

    I can answer the second question for myself (not speaking for anyone else) but I always think I have deposited X amount of dollars, I would have to hit sometime, so I keep depositing at that particular casino.


    What is your opinion to why they aren't answering her emails? (you said it was a clue) I don't like to talk about people when they are not in the conversation, so maybe we can ask Heidisue what she thinks the reason is? Besides them being a-holes to her. :D
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Sep 13, 2009
  15. jas2587

    jas2587 Ueber Meister

    Occupation:
    none
    Location:
    FL
    wether they be a whale or a $25 a week depositer an addict is an addict an they have stated they are an those issues need to be addressed by TIV instead of what kind of bonus can she get an letting them continue to deposit
    this is rogue behavoir on TIV part if that OP was infact honest

    Cindy
     
    4 people like this.
  16. Sep 13, 2009
  17. bb28

    bb28 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    US
    I'm not here to be hard on the poster at all and I'm not judging her. When I read her original complaint in the other thread, I was pissed at the casino not her. They have taken advantage of her, that's clear as the sun in the sky.
    I wanted to bring it up so people could discuss it and hopefully it would be nice to have some input from some reps as to what are the criteria for their warning flags. I'm hoping but not expecting that.
    Things won't change unless we talk about it. Some places need to wipe the $$'s out of their eyes and remember that they are dealing with real people, not just $'s.
     
    4 people like this.
  18. Sep 13, 2009
  19. GGW Laurie

    GGW Laurie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Self Employed
    Location:
    In the Beautiful South !!
    I just have a problem with telling someone they are an addict, when we dont know the whole story and facts behind it, this almost seems like outing someone, as she was trying to chase a loss, now how many are guilty of that? may be a whole lot of addicts on Casinomeister:D, its not for us or the casinos to police the forum looking for out of control gamblers imo unless they say i have a problem and need help.

    I really dont like the fact of crossing threads and putting Heidi's name out there, so now she will be seen as a problem gambler, not cool at all imo...........laurie
     
    8 people like this.
  20. Sep 13, 2009
  21. bb28

    bb28 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    US
    Laurie...I didn't say it, she did and it's already out there, so come on, don't make this about me outing her. That isn't fair. Again.....I am not here to hurt her or embarrass her, and I apologize to her that it's turning into this :eek: which just puzzles the hell out of me. It's not about judgement of any individual, it's about the responsiblity of a casino and the discussion of that topic. It's not about us as a forum policing anyone or deciding who is an addict or not, it's about a casino's responsiblity in dealing with a possible addict.

    IMO.....your above post just magnified all that stuff that doesn't belong in this thread.

    Now can we get back on the topic??
     
    4 people like this.
  22. Sep 13, 2009
  23. JHV

    JHV <a href="http://www.casinomeister.com/meister_awar

    Occupation:
    Losing a Poker Bankroll on House Edge
    Location:
    Perennial Traveler
    As I'm sure everyone posting in this thread is already aware (at least, on some level); this is an incredibly complex and hazy issue we're discussing. As someone who's been on the 'embarrassing' (addiction / lack of self-discipline) side of it, I'm probably going to surprise some people with my arguments.

    Which simply are: I don't think the casinos can be expected to go out of their way to help people who are clearly problem gamblers. It's simply not their job - actually, their 'job' is to target that very market.

    Online casinos should not be held to Mother Theresa standards. It's both unreasonable and illogical. To use a really crude example, it would be like a fast food chain deciding to turn away any customer who (for example) has a BMI over 29. Like, people have to take a level of personal responsibility for their actions. Some are able to, some are not. We should not ridicule those that cannot - addiction is very complex and real issue that I doubt anyone in the world TRULY understands fully. The human brain is complex in ways the smartest of us can not even begin to fathom, imo.

    Here is what I expect online casinos to be held accountable for - in terms of minimal ethical standards of behaviour (when faced with this specific issue):

    1. No lies. Ever. Full-stop. Never misrepresent, never twist or spin your language - just clear, direct, no-nonsense approach.

    2. Targeting these players with promotions is ok and ethical, imo. And it's good business. So long as the promotions are fair and honest and don't include complicated 'strings attached' or 'fine print' (*that* would be unethical).

    3. It is not the casino's job to involve themselves in the personal lives of their customers. They are selling some products that, by their very nature and spin limits, are targeted at problem gamblers (unless we're all multi-millionaires and can afford $200 Spins at 4/sec autoplay - I know I do not fall into this category, and know VERY few people who ever would). It's illogical to expect a casino to block a perfectly suited customer from their product. All we can hope for...all we can try to demand...is honesty in their delivery of that product - the rest is up to the player, their family and their social networks.

    4. Cashout rules nonsense. Every casino is guilty of this to some degree. And online poker room. With the exception of Full Tilt. There is no reason why your funds should not INSTANTLY land in your payment processing account like Moneybookers or NETeller. Stalling on payouts is unethical. LYING to players about payout "problems", "complications", "delays", "limits", "ID requirements", etc etc etc - ALL very unethical. Anything that's in place to prevent any casino player (whether they have a problem or not) from withdrawing their money fast and easily - or any measure in place designed to stall or otherwise frustrate the player attempting to withdraw - is unethical. Hugely unethical, imo.

    --------

    In summary:

    * Ensure your games are 'fair' - in terms of how they operate and house policies should there be server disconnects or obvious player errors should be clear and logical and standardised and "in the spirit of the game" - if a player does $6,000,000 in wagering ALL at Max Coin, then the server disconnects, he logs back in some time later and does a single spin at Min Coin (1 spin) - and the casino refuses to pay him at the coin he OBVIOUSLY intended to spin on that ONE spin - that's unethical.

    * Make sure your promotions are not littered with unethical 'hidden' clauses or fine print or unnecessary complexities or misleading language usage. T&C's are required, advantage players are a serious threat, but these T&C's must be clearly written, everything clean and "face-up" (so to speak)

    * When a player wants to cashout...LET THEM. Process their cashout fast. To stall in any way, shape or form is unethical. To directly lie to your players, either to stall for longer or to directly frustrate them, is the height of unethical behaviour, imo. That's just pure evil right there, in so much as I personally define 'evil'.

    -------------

    Online casinos who do not adhere to the above MINIMUM ethical standards in the conduct of their operations should be dragged publicly through the mud for being shameful.

    Expecting online casinos to block players who haven't self-requested blocking, is both inappropriate and unreasonable.

    But by Jove and all the gods, when a player requests a self-ban, you act and you act fast - any delay is unethical.

    -------------

    That's pretty much a quickly written summary of my objective opinions on the matter.
     
    5 people like this.
  24. Sep 13, 2009
  25. bb28

    bb28 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    US
    Thank you for your response JHV. I don't agree with all you said but the discussion of the topic is what is important. :notworthy
    I don't have time to elaborate but I think casino's should have some responsiblity in monitoring players and looking for signs of a problem and then shutting that account down if certain criteria are met. It would be nice to hear from a rep what guidelines they use if it comes to that.


    Since Enzo is a respected rep around here, I'd like to hear what guidelines they use. Enzo?
     
  26. Sep 13, 2009
  27. GGW Laurie

    GGW Laurie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Self Employed
    Location:
    In the Beautiful South !!
    Very sorry M. Bonita, i understand this is something you feel strongly about and i respect that..........side note: to Enzo and my other casinos, im not a problem gambler, i just love your casinos:D

    Im still upset with TIV and that to me shows a poor ran casino and staff...........laurie
     
    2 people like this.
  28. Sep 13, 2009
  29. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    The responsibility lies on the gamblers shoulder, totally, not the casino. The casino is there to make a buck, not babysit grown adults and having to play nanny to them when it fits the gamblers agenda....

    But if one should ask to be banned, then the casino should honor this request. Period.

    .
     
    4 people like this.
  30. Sep 13, 2009
  31. bb28

    bb28 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    US
    I appreciate your response and your opinion silcnlayc. Clear and to the point. :thumbsup:
     
  32. Sep 13, 2009
  33. De Beuker

    De Beuker Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Production
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I don't think a casino has any responsibility monitoring for problem gamblers, its their business, and it would cost them loads of time and money.
    The larger casino's have thousands of players, they would have to hire qualified personell for it.
    I also think many people would feel insulted if they were labelled as an addict/problem gambler by a casino and take their business elsewhere.

    I remember reading an old thread a while ago, can't find it unfortunately, about SlotoCash, they had closed someone's account due to excessive gambling, well, the person was not at all happy with that to say the least..

    You cannot help an addicted person until that person admits he/she has a problem and needs help.
    So if anyone asks a casino to close account, they have to do so immediately, don't think we can expect more.
     
    2 people like this.
  34. Sep 13, 2009
  35. vegetagirl2008

    vegetagirl2008 Mafia Wars Level 472

    Occupation:
    No Job Here..
    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York, United States
    I really don't think she openly admitted she has a problem. Only people in denial will not mention that fact. She stated she lost 15,000 in playing the penny within a months time which is astounding. Now she wants to find out what happened to the comps and bonuses she was suppose to receive. Luckily they didn't close her account. But when the switch is off it stays off. I'm gathering they labeled her as a problem gambler.
     
    1 person likes this.
  36. Sep 13, 2009
  37. bb28

    bb28 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    US
    The poster's direct quote from here, " Stupid gambling addiction. "

    So yes she did state that, and I did not start this thread until after she made that post out of concern for her. Again my concern here is not the matter of whether or not she is or not, but I started this thread in hopes of a discussion about the responsiblity that a casino should have when dealing with someone who displays signs of a problem. I'm the first to admit that I don't know what signs they look for but as I've said before I'd like to hear it from an official rep of a casino.
    Again.....this thread is going somewhere else instead of talking about an issue.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2009
    1 person likes this.
  38. Sep 13, 2009
  39. vegetagirl2008

    vegetagirl2008 Mafia Wars Level 472

    Occupation:
    No Job Here..
    Location:
    Brooklyn, New York, United States
    Yup your are right she did admit this. But I think the casino is just a vehicle for her entertainment and yes the casino should oblige her in this case. Sorry for the derail I didn't see the second page of the thread. But she should not deposit there until she finds out whats going on. If she can afford to play then so be it. She know the risks of gambling. All we can do is advise her.
     
    1 person likes this.

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