Your Input Please Responsible gambling and reversing withdrawals

LeanneP

Quit the forum
PABnoaccred
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Location
Ontario, Canada
No Worries On Reverses

My story is particularly sad, and I prefer to play to equally troubled crowd, so bow out if you are faint of heart..or "sober" as it is sometimes called.

I have lived my adult life from small job to manual labour to unemployment to temp jobs to disability...basically a life of near-poverty. In Canada, that's not impossible, and I have scrounged and put tips when I could get them, etc, onto my casino gaming hobby. I have vastly enjoyed watching the online casino industry grow. I was one of the first data entry operators in Canada, before internet, and it's vastly interesting.

I have "won" dozens of times; gone up in my balance, to over $50, to up over $1000 literally hundreds of times. I have tried to withdraw probably more than a couple of hundred times.

EVERY time, very few exceptions, I turn my withdrawal around. Once I had around $750 in 32Red. I flushed it, then reversed that flush, $10 at a time, until it was gone. No one has ever, nor until now that I read the concept at all in this forum, mentioned that that might not be the best idea, or that there could ever be any restriction to a flushed withdrawal.

Through thick and thin over ten years. I have likely bought at least a couple of very juicy BIG jackpots, with my own money. Nor will I ever take my purchase anywhere...not likely, anyway.

What's the point? A) Casinos, no matter how nice they are, how friendly, how 'honourable'...don't give a flying crap. and B) I feel like if I took the money, something bad would happen...that there's a hidden "drawback". Maybe it's the bizarre 'hints' in the subject lines of the spam e-mails I get. Maybe it's the 'prep' statements said out in the street "Some old guys think you're making a lot of money" (the rest of the sentence was 'on your paper route') ...! True or false, good, bad or ugly, that's how I feel. Kind of excruciatingly succulently amused; kind of doomed. But what a torture!

Cheers. :cheers: :drink::drink::puke:
 

plasticnote

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Location
Australia
I am slowly stopping playing these casinos with pending cashout.

These days, I spent my money at betsson, betsafe and some other places offering instant cashout.

Back to few years ago, there are many big groups with MG platform, FL, GNUF, JPF etc, then they all either disappeared or consolidated. Many of them introduces longer and longer pendings, remove flush to lift their bottom line, seems in long run, it does not work...

I used to be a VIP in many of them, and spending 10s of thousands every year at each of them. Now only see their spam in my email making me feel disgusting...

It takes a bit time to see the effects kick in, in few months, they probably enjoy a much higher profits margin, but behind that are people moving away from them.

I think we players should be more responsible for these situation rather than regulation authority , we shall all go play at betsson, betsafe and some other places with instant cashout.

cheers

plasticnotes
 

Harry_BKK

Meister Member
CAG
mm1
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Location
Balcony
I am slowly stopping playing these casinos with pending cashout.

These days, I spent my money at betsson, betsafe and some other places offering instant cashout.

Back to few years ago, there are many big groups with MG platform, FL, GNUF, JPF etc, then they all either disappeared or consolidated. Many of them introduces longer and longer pendings, remove flush to lift their bottom line, seems in long run, it does not work...

I used to be a VIP in many of them, and spending 10s of thousands every year at each of them. Now only see their spam in my email making me feel disgusting...

It takes a bit time to see the effects kick in, in few months, they probably enjoy a much higher profits margin, but behind that are people moving away from them.

I think we players should be more responsible for these situation rather than regulation authority , we shall all go play at betsson, betsafe and some other places with instant cashout.

cheers

plasticnotes
well said... same experience here and just now starting to move on to casinos which pay instantly.
 

plasticnote

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Location
Australia
well said... same experience here and just now starting to move on to casinos which pay instantly.
the advantage of playing instant pay casinos are that it is very similar to play land based. Harry, do not try to build bigger enough to cashout. IMO, once hit few 100x win, cashout, it will in your ewallet for few seconds. switch platforms, and switch games.
 

mina888

Experienced Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Location
Vancouver, Canada
Which casinos pay instantly? Do you have to have a special payment method like skrill or cc withdrawals also are instant?

the advantage of playing instant pay casinos are that it is very similar to play land based. Harry, do not try to build bigger enough to cashout. IMO, once hit few 100x win, cashout, it will in your ewallet for few seconds. switch platforms, and switch games.
 

chayton

aka LooHoo
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Location
Edmonton Canada
Thanks everyone for your input, I think basically we would all like to be paid quickly, even those few who can resist a quite long pending period. I don't particularly blame the casinos, because ultimately the responsibility is up to the player. If you're consistently reversing and losing withdrawals, you need to either start playing at casinos that don't offer that option or figure out a method to keep from doing it.

But a lot of gamblers are impulsive - the whole responsible gambling thing and being able to set deposit limits is made for those impulsive players.

What I'd like to see implemented is a LOCK rather than a flush. Like imagine if, when you make your withdrawal there would be an option to lock it - the player can choose to check it or not. IF you check it, you can still see it sitting there tempting you, but it CAN'T be reversed even by contacting support - that way it would reduce the strain on support when all the players decide, "oh if only I had an extra $100 to play with." If they don't check it, they can reverse all they want.

Just off or on, no grey area like with flushing - if you requested a flush and your WD hadn't been sent to processing, you could always contact support to reverse part (or all) of it. With a lock, you could simply lock each withdrawal you make when you're making it and it can't be undone. Maybe with a message that says "If you lock this it can't be undone, ARE YOU SURE" just to keep people from crying that they checked it by accident when they're desperately trying to talk support into reversing it later. ;) It would be up to the player completely - if you changed your mind and wanted to play more, too bad. AND if you don't set the lock and reverse and spend it back, then it's nobody's fault but your own.

Or what if you could lock a portion of your withdrawal? If your withdrawal was for $1200 you could choose to lock $1000 - you'd be able to reverse $200 if you want, but no more than that. Maybe a bit more complicated, but since it's all just imaginary anyhow...

Would I use a feature like that? I think I would, maybe not every time though.

And actually it might be good for the casinos too. If you want to play a bit more maybe instead of depositing $50 you'll deposit $100 because you can see you've got that $2000 or whatever locked up and safe.
 

luckyjay

Dormant account
PABnononaccred
Joined
May 11, 2012
Location
United States
Which casinos pay instantly? Do you have to have a special payment method like skrill or cc withdrawals also are instant?
3Dice pays almost instantly if you are in a place that you can use NeTeller or Skrill. Otherwise, they send a check out same day.
They even post a live-updated average payout time on their website:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 

sigothx1

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Location
England
Time to chip in with some home truths, My casino, assuming you have provided full ID and believe me if your withdrawing a decent amount, if you haven't been asked for something, were going to ask you. the standard withdrawal times are 3 working days, we advise on the phone it could be sooner, its not, it never is unless your a vip in which case we will process the next working day, W/d on a Friday? ye that w/d will still be pending Wednesday, 5 days after request, then well ask you for id, then well ask you for something else, the most ive seen a player wait was 3 weeks with a pending w/d we asked for dob/address id, 3 days later we asked for phone bill, which i wont go into much as it would give away the casino i work for, 3 days later we asked for a winners cheque which is basically another 7 days as we post out a novelty check second class on a Friday, its not getting to you until Monday if your lucky, and you need to sign for it, dont sign for it as your working? ye go pick that up from the post office the next day ect, once we get winners cheque you then have to wait another 3 working days, imagine how many weekends have passed now.

Then, then we process your withdrawal. Don't get me wrong this is if you've won a substantial amount and by that i mean 4 figures +, unless as i said your a vip. and to be a vip you need to be losing high 5 figures per year for us to speed things up.

now, in alllll that time, you can reverse your w/d and play, if you do reverse the process starts again the second you request another w/d another cheque can be sent even if you've already done one if you happened to win anymore money from reversing, if you lost you have to wait yet more working days ( we also class holidays as non working days )

WHY does the casino do this? for the exact reason you all think, to tempt you to play it back, casinos are a business before they are your friends, i get people call me on a weekly basis, some in tears telling me they have reversed there w/d and lost it, my heart goes out to them, but from a personal and not a working perspective people need to learn not to reverse, easier said than done i know, im guilty of reversing and losing like most online gamblers, alltho its very, very rare for me to do it, ive still done it. my advice for people who get tempted? close your account the moment you withdraw your funds, and re-open it after, yes you could just re-open and reverse, but if you do this you should be able to think "im closing this and will NOT open it until im paid" its an extra bit of willpower.

my last tip is a tad extreme, but if you win a SUBSTANTIAL amount of money 5 figures say, and you know your tempted to reverse, SELF EXCLUDE your account, this effectively stops you reversing as you psychically cannot gain access to do so, one of our players did this a couple months ago, most people in the office laughed when i told them hes done this to prevent reversing as they all said "well why cant he just stop himself" but hes the winner, he knows that £4000 he won is going to be paid and even if he wanted to reverse with all his might he simply cant, just be aware self exclusion usually lasts 6 months +.

i hope im not coming across as "one of them" im a player just like you guys, but this is reality, as long as people reverse and lose it wont change, and some people have 0 willpower.
 

mina888

Experienced Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Location
Vancouver, Canada
Time to chip in with some home truths, My casino, assuming you have provided full ID and believe me if your withdrawing a decent amount, if you haven't been asked for something, were going to ask you. the standard withdrawal times are 3 working days, we advise on the phone it could be sooner, its not, it never is unless your a vip in which case we will process the next working day, W/d on a Friday? ye that w/d will still be pending Wednesday, 5 days after request, then well ask you for id, then well ask you for something else, the most ive seen a player wait was 3 weeks with a pending w/d we asked for dob/address id, 3 days later we asked for phone bill, which i wont go into much as it would give away the casino i work for, 3 days later we asked for a winners cheque which is basically another 7 days as we post out a novelty check second class on a Friday, its not getting to you until Monday if your lucky, and you need to sign for it, dont sign for it as your working? ye go pick that up from the post office the next day ect, once we get winners cheque you then have to wait another 3 working days, imagine how many weekends have passed now.

Then, then we process your withdrawal. Don't get me wrong this is if you've won a substantial amount and by that i mean 4 figures +, unless as i said your a vip. and to be a vip you need to be losing high 5 figures per year for us to speed things up.

now, in alllll that time, you can reverse your w/d and play, if you do reverse the process starts again the second you request another w/d another cheque can be sent even if you've already done one if you happened to win anymore money from reversing, if you lost you have to wait yet more working days ( we also class holidays as non working days )

WHY does the casino do this? for the exact reason you all think, to tempt you to play it back, casinos are a business before they are your friends, i get people call me on a weekly basis, some in tears telling me they have reversed there w/d and lost it, my heart goes out to them, but from a personal and not a working perspective people need to learn not to reverse, easier said than done i know, im guilty of reversing and losing like most online gamblers, alltho its very, very rare for me to do it, ive still done it. my advice for people who get tempted? close your account the moment you withdraw your funds, and re-open it after, yes you could just re-open and reverse, but if you do this you should be able to think "im closing this and will NOT open it until im paid" its an extra bit of willpower.

my last tip is a tad extreme, but if you win a SUBSTANTIAL amount of money 5 figures say, and you know your tempted to reverse, SELF EXCLUDE your account, this effectively stops you reversing as you psychically cannot gain access to do so, one of our players did this a couple months ago, most people in the office laughed when i told them hes done this to prevent reversing as they all said "well why cant he just stop himself" but hes the winner, he knows that £4000 he won is going to be paid and even if he wanted to reverse with all his might he simply cant, just be aware self exclusion usually lasts 6 months +.

i hope im not coming across as "one of them" im a player just like you guys, but this is reality, as long as people reverse and lose it wont change, and some people have 0 willpower.
Thanks for sharing this information.
 

3Dice

I-Gaming Industry Representative
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
-
Hi Sigothx1,

It is a good thing to notice the disdain towards the methods used by the casino you work for. They are not just clearly far from best practice - they're also from a business point of view neither smart nor efficient. So allow me to give you a clearer picture on an alternative so that perhaps you can persuade your employer to improve both their ethics and bottom line.

Before I begin, lets make sure we agree on terminology, more specifically lets define the withdraw lifecycle :

0. submitted : user submits withdraw
1. pending period : fixed-length timeframe in which absolutely nothing happens
2. verification : casino verifies docs, kyc, play, etc ..
3. approved : verifications are done but not yet submitted to processor.
4. processing : submitted to processor.
5. finished : confirmation or failure received from processor.

Lets also agree on some of the actions the user can do :

flushing : asking support to eliminate the pending period - only meaningfull during step 1.
locking : asking support to eliminate the ability to reverse the withdraw - meaningfull untill step 4.

Ok so now that we speak the same language, lets begin our tale of the dragon named 'pending period' that so many casinos have allowed to nest on their courtyard. Now make no mistake, even tho some of the kings of those castles may have an eerie resemblance to an evil Mr Burns, surely some of them are good at heart - what is holding them back to deploy their slayers ?

Well, this dark tale begins with the construction of a new road. The old road was bricky and mortar-y and not suited for horse and carriage .. the new road - mystically called information highway - was smooth, and fast, but alas guarded by an evil orc called Processor. For each nobleman and noblewomen that entered or left the courtyard Processor would charge the King a fee upto often half a tithe of their purse.

King would still organise his parties, games and banquettes, and for a while things were fine. Yes, processor was demanding a hefty fee - so high that a couple of bards now had to eat with the horses - but the King figured it was unavoidable to get his parties to be attended. One sunny day, pondering the uncertain faith of bards eating haver for longer periods of time, the king is walking past the castle walls and hears the distinctive noises of a nobleman and not-so-noble woman spending quality time right outside the castle walls. To uhm - verify mutual conscent - the King circles outside the castle walls only to find half a dozen of nobleman sleeping it off - a handfull answering the call of nature and a couple of of at least R-rated displays.

After putting some of his guards outside the castle walls his councelors calculate that more than half of the people leaving and entering the gate simply go outside for a call of nature or to get out of the noise for a while. May that just be the point in time that a fierceful dragon called 'pending period' decides to set up camp right in front of the exit gates. The dragon is vicious when awake and will hear the tinkle of every gold shilling. If you have none you can get past but if you do you'll have to wait till he sleeps. While the King is hesitant at first, he immediately notices that the weight of the purses he has to hand Processor each day have more than halved - and since the dragon only occasionally eats a guest - he decides no urgent action is needed.

This is - if I recall correctly - the tale of the very first medieval pending period.

Ok, that was fun - but I'm also actually being pretty serious. 3Dice does not have a pending period - we have other - friendlier and more effective methods - but we didn't always have those. So, when a casino has no pending period or other measures, and the manager looks at the accounts at the end of the week he might see something like this : Lets say we have 3 players and they all started with 100 playing balance on their debet card at the beginning of the week.

player 1 : deposit : 100 withdraw : 0
player 2 : deposit : 100 withdraw : 1000

those players seem fine, player 1 lost, player 2 won.

player 3 : deposit : 1100 withdraw : 1000

so this player has within one week, also lost a hundred, but he withdrew, got his withdraw and then redeposited.
lets look at the transaction costs. (at say 5% - not unrealistic).

player 1 : 100 * 0.05 = 5
player 2 : 1100 * 0.05 = 55
player 3 : 2100 * 0.05 = 105
---
165

Ok so that's what the manager sees. Even tho only 1/3 of the players are exhibiting this behavior, they are responsible for 63% of the transaction cost. Not only that from the 300 that the players deposited .. 165 or 55% !!! ends up with the processor. And to make matters worse .. player 3 is costing more than he originally had budget - so his behavior is impacting the experience of player 1 and 2 - which is unacceptable.

For 3Dice the first step was to disable deposits while withdraws were pending. We still do that. It's effective for payment methods that have an inherent slowness like check or wire. We had no reversal options and withdraws were automatically locked at that time. This did however cause a serious workload for support. Not realizing they would be locked out of real play for days .. waiting for check, reloading card etc .. we had an avalanche of requests to implement reversals. A second aspect is that the locks were only during the processing period, so for instant methods they had no effect. As a result we still had profiles like player3 above withdrawing and depositing multiple times per day - sometimes even per hour.

At that point we spoke to some of those players (some of them members here) to find out what was driving their behavior and to simply make them aware of the problem and ask them to keep it in mind. These discussions is where the idea of the 3Dice safe was born. We found out that for many players the psychology of 'moving the money from the balance to a safe place' was really the key driver. Just like in vegas sometimes you just want to convert some chips or empty your card to get some hard cash in your wallet - in fact the 3Dice safe borrows its name from the safe boxes you can get in vegas - the ones where you leave your key in the hotel room.

The 3Dice safe works amazingly well - it allows players to keep their current mindset, and it allows us as casino to keep offering the top quality payouts that we are known for. Thanks to the safe we don't have to have scary dragons - we have a ton of players that keep enough in their safe to cover the bonus offers they expect the coming weeks, or move money to their safe right after they deposit - it is used hundreds times more than the most used processor and has not only virtually eliminated all 'player3' scenario's, it has even optimised player 2 and 1 scenarios - an unexpected but nice side-effect.

Ok, that's the pending period side of things - I would like to handle responsible gambling seperately as I feel that it is actually more related to the entire withdraw lifecycle as opposed to just the pending period.

Luckily I can be short on that - RG is always a bit of a balance between protection and freedom and so we offer a variety of options there. There's the full lock my withdraw - unless you have a very persuasive argument you will have a hard time to get support to undo that - if you are also using other RG options like deposit limits your reversals will count towards that to. Apart from this all-or-nothing strategy we also offer users the option to set a certain % as the maximum they can reverse at a time. This way they create points in time where they have to stop and consider.

So in short, with the propper mix of tools you can both respect the players and defeat the orcs .. no dragons needed ..

just my two shilling,

Enzo
 

sigothx1

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Location
England
Hi Sigothx1,

It is a good thing to notice the disdain towards the methods used by the casino you work for. They are not just clearly far from best practice - they're also from a business point of view neither smart nor efficient. So allow me to give you a clearer picture on an alternative so that perhaps you can persuade your employer to improve both their ethics and bottom line.

Before I begin, lets make sure we agree on terminology, more specifically lets define the withdraw lifecycle :

0. submitted : user submits withdraw
1. pending period : fixed-length timeframe in which absolutely nothing happens
2. verification : casino verifies docs, kyc, play, etc ..
3. approved : verifications are done but not yet submitted to processor.
4. processing : submitted to processor.
5. finished : confirmation or failure received from processor.

Lets also agree on some of the actions the user can do :

flushing : asking support to eliminate the pending period - only meaningfull during step 1.
locking : asking support to eliminate the ability to reverse the withdraw - meaningfull untill step 4.

Ok so now that we speak the same language, lets begin our tale of the dragon named 'pending period' that so many casinos have allowed to nest on their courtyard. Now make no mistake, even tho some of the kings of those castles may have an eerie resemblance to an evil Mr Burns, surely some of them are good at heart - what is holding them back to deploy their slayers ?

Well, this dark tale begins with the construction of a new road. The old road was bricky and mortar-y and not suited for horse and carriage .. the new road - mystically called information highway - was smooth, and fast, but alas guarded by an evil orc called Processor. For each nobleman and noblewomen that entered or left the courtyard Processor would charge the King a fee upto often half a tithe of their purse.

King would still organise his parties, games and banquettes, and for a while things were fine. Yes, processor was demanding a hefty fee - so high that a couple of bards now had to eat with the horses - but the King figured it was unavoidable to get his parties to be attended. One sunny day, pondering the uncertain faith of bards eating haver for longer periods of time, the king is walking past the castle walls and hears the distinctive noises of a nobleman and not-so-noble woman spending quality time right outside the castle walls. To uhm - verify mutual conscent - the King circles outside the castle walls only to find half a dozen of nobleman sleeping it off - a handfull answering the call of nature and a couple of of at least R-rated displays.

After putting some of his guards outside the castle walls his councelors calculate that more than half of the people leaving and entering the gate simply go outside for a call of nature or to get out of the noise for a while. May that just be the point in time that a fierceful dragon called 'pending period' decides to set up camp right in front of the exit gates. The dragon is vicious when awake and will hear the tinkle of every gold shilling. If you have none you can get past but if you do you'll have to wait till he sleeps. While the King is hesitant at first, he immediately notices that the weight of the purses he has to hand Processor each day have more than halved - and since the dragon only occasionally eats a guest - he decides no urgent action is needed.

This is - if I recall correctly - the tale of the very first medieval pending period.

Ok, that was fun - but I'm also actually being pretty serious. 3Dice does not have a pending period - we have other - friendlier and more effective methods - but we didn't always have those. So, when a casino has no pending period or other measures, and the manager looks at the accounts at the end of the week he might see something like this : Lets say we have 3 players and they all started with 100 playing balance on their debet card at the beginning of the week.

player 1 : deposit : 100 withdraw : 0
player 2 : deposit : 100 withdraw : 1000

those players seem fine, player 1 lost, player 2 won.

player 3 : deposit : 1100 withdraw : 1000

so this player has within one week, also lost a hundred, but he withdrew, got his withdraw and then redeposited.
lets look at the transaction costs. (at say 5% - not unrealistic).

player 1 : 100 * 0.05 = 5
player 2 : 1100 * 0.05 = 55
player 3 : 2100 * 0.05 = 105
---
165

Ok so that's what the manager sees. Even tho only 1/3 of the players are exhibiting this behavior, they are responsible for 63% of the transaction cost. Not only that from the 300 that the players deposited .. 165 or 55% !!! ends up with the processor. And to make matters worse .. player 3 is costing more than he originally had budget - so his behavior is impacting the experience of player 1 and 2 - which is unacceptable.

For 3Dice the first step was to disable deposits while withdraws were pending. We still do that. It's effective for payment methods that have an inherent slowness like check or wire. We had no reversal options and withdraws were automatically locked at that time. This did however cause a serious workload for support. Not realizing they would be locked out of real play for days .. waiting for check, reloading card etc .. we had an avalanche of requests to implement reversals. A second aspect is that the locks were only during the processing period, so for instant methods they had no effect. As a result we still had profiles like player3 above withdrawing and depositing multiple times per day - sometimes even per hour.

At that point we spoke to some of those players (some of them members here) to find out what was driving their behavior and to simply make them aware of the problem and ask them to keep it in mind. These discussions is where the idea of the 3Dice safe was born. We found out that for many players the psychology of 'moving the money from the balance to a safe place' was really the key driver. Just like in vegas sometimes you just want to convert some chips or empty your card to get some hard cash in your wallet - in fact the 3Dice safe borrows its name from the safe boxes you can get in vegas - the ones where you leave your key in the hotel room.

The 3Dice safe works amazingly well - it allows players to keep their current mindset, and it allows us as casino to keep offering the top quality payouts that we are known for. Thanks to the safe we don't have to have scary dragons - we have a ton of players that keep enough in their safe to cover the bonus offers they expect the coming weeks, or move money to their safe right after they deposit - it is used hundreds times more than the most used processor and has not only virtually eliminated all 'player3' scenario's, it has even optimised player 2 and 1 scenarios - an unexpected but nice side-effect.

Ok, that's the pending period side of things - I would like to handle responsible gambling seperately as I feel that it is actually more related to the entire withdraw lifecycle as opposed to just the pending period.

Luckily I can be short on that - RG is always a bit of a balance between protection and freedom and so we offer a variety of options there. There's the full lock my withdraw - unless you have a very persuasive argument you will have a hard time to get support to undo that - if you are also using other RG options like deposit limits your reversals will count towards that to. Apart from this all-or-nothing strategy we also offer users the option to set a certain % as the maximum they can reverse at a time. This way they create points in time where they have to stop and consider.

So in short, with the propper mix of tools you can both respect the players and defeat the orcs .. no dragons needed ..

just my two shilling,

Enzo
before i start i want to make clear i hold 3dice in very, very high regard as a casino, they do things they do not have to do to combat said issue of simply reversing and losing, bare in mind id feel comfortable in saying most online casinos do have the option of reversing without a "safe" ect.

now, im in not in the absolute best frame of mind and feel like ill edit this post tomorrow ( day off, go me ) but i would like to respond now all the same, firstly, we must discuss transaction costs, im assuming here but im fairly confident that 3dice is an offshore casino, im in the uk, the casino i work for is regulated in the uk, and as i mentioned in my previous post 99% of players are from the uk. This means when i talk about transaction costs, they are either non existent or minimum, when we pay to a "for example" santander account, or barclays or halifax, they do not charge us, it may well be very different offshore, but here, you can put any amount ( within reason ) into anyone elses bank account without so much of a waiting period. So the argument of player 1/2/3 is irreverent, as all 3 cost us the same, the only thing that matters would be time, player 1 wouldn't get looked at, unless our system flagged the player for some reason ( name on card didn't match, suspicious play, paypal not in the same name, list goes on and is somewhat vast , but majority would have no need to be looked at ) this is the same with player 2, our system automatically flags to our banking section if the player needs to be looked into.

player 2 might have linked accounts, might be using a suspicious address, might have suspicious play, this would flag, and upon w/d would be clearly looked into, and let me tell you if joe bloggs deposited 100 quid for the first time and hadn't done anything to arouse suspicion his account would not be looked into upon w/d, unless hes withdrawing a huge amount, the majority of people dont as youll know, however we would still wait 3 days in player 1/2/3 cases.

player 3 would be in the same boat, you said "if hed w/d and re-deopisited" on his very first w/d if there was ANY suspicion that would have been the time to look into it, not on a second w/d. and even if he did make a second w/d again, the system which bare in mind wasn't made overnight, would flag ANYTHING that looked out of place on an account, to be fair the majority of flags on accounts are false positives, for example, depositing more than i think 6-800 in a day would flag, even if your a VIP, as you know yourself things have to be checked and re-checked.

now, onto the next issue, you look at cost, which is what any business does, "so his behavior is impacting the experience of player 1 and 2 - which is unacceptable." no hes not, hes a separate customer, the fact you had to spend more time on him does affect player 1 and 2, but it doesn't mean they should wait longer for a w/d we both know it does, as your banking team have to spend more time of on player 3, but that does not make it right. Obviously someone with a high amount of w/ds and deposits in a small time frame is going to be checked and rightly so, but the original question was is it ethical to allow other player a pending period, there is nothing stopping 3dice, my casino, and every other casino simply disabling reversing a w/d once one has been asked for.

"For 3Dice the first step was to disable deposits while withdraws were pending. We still do that. It's effective for payment methods that have an inherent slowness like check or wire. We had no reversal options and withdraws were automatically locked at that time. This did however cause a serious workload for support. Not realizing they would be locked out of real play for days .. waiting for check, reloading card etc .. we had an avalanche of requests to implement reversals. A second aspect is that the locks were only during the processing period, so for instant methods they had no effect. As a result we still had profiles like player3 above withdrawing and depositing multiple times per day - sometimes even per hour."

i wanted to quote this paragraph, props to disabled deposits when a w/d is processing, you mention a big workload for support, i fully get that, ive seen it, you don't stipulate that was "enough" for you to enable reversals im going to go out on a limb and assume by this you did, which i can understand the non-allowal of reversing causes a lot of headaches for any casino, and tomorrow i will read your terms, if the "safe" option allows you to put money in it, AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE allows you to cancel it, i give even more props to you and this is something that more casinos, including mine need to do, however if there is a "get out clause" meaning you can move it back into playable, its simply a novelty.

now i read this,

"we offer a variety of options there. There's the full lock my withdraw - unless you have a very persuasive argument you will have a hard time to get support to undo that"

now to me, a player, a FULL LOCK should mean, once i chose this as a player, i could offer your CS rep double the amount of my w/d in hard cash, and they would still say no, a FULL lock should be what it says, but your ending comment suggests that "for the right reason" it can be unlocked, i apologize if that isnt an option, but if it is, hello again novelty.

and lastly, every casino offers deposit limits, mine included, and we very well both know the majority of people ignore them, and once a player does hit that dream win it makes no difference, the issue is reversing a win not limiting yourself to what you deposit.


i will at some point edit all this, but i did want to respond, my absolute last point is this, ive played at 3dice, am i right in thinking you do not pay back to debit cards? you have to request a wire? genuinely asking out of ignorance.
 

fun4all

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Location
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Thank you Enzo for sharing that, awesome post and helped me understand the casinos side of things better.

Also good to understand some of the processor costs incurred for the casino. 5% as a baseline must cost a lot over the long term.
 

fun4all

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Location
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the casino i work for is regulated in the uk, and as i mentioned in my previous post 99% of players are from the uk. This means when i talk about transaction costs, they are either non existent or minimum, when we pay to a "for example" santander account, or barclays or halifax, they do not charge us
That's pretty big. I never figured they could be "non existent". Given all casinos in the UK now should carry a UK licence I will not be as forgiving to them with this knowledge now. They do have to pay 15% tax however.
 

3Dice

I-Gaming Industry Representative
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
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i wanted to quote this paragraph, props to disabled deposits when a w/d is processing, you mention a big workload for support, i fully get that, ive seen it, you don't stipulate that was "enough" for you to enable reversals im going to go out on a limb and assume by this you did, which i can understand the non-allowal of reversing causes a lot of headaches for any casino, and tomorrow i will read your terms, if the "safe" option allows you to put money in it, AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE allows you to cancel it, i give even more props to you and this is something that more casinos, including mine need to do, however if there is a "get out clause" meaning you can move it back into playable, its simply a novelty.

now i read this,

"we offer a variety of options there. There's the full lock my withdraw - unless you have a very persuasive argument you will have a hard time to get support to undo that"

now to me, a player, a FULL LOCK should mean, once i chose this as a player, i could offer your CS rep double the amount of my w/d in hard cash, and they would still say no, a FULL lock should be what it says, but your ending comment suggests that "for the right reason" it can be unlocked, i apologize if that isnt an option, but if it is, hello again novelty.
It depends on the situation really - if you have _any_ RG settings on your account (you setup up deposit or loss limits, you've reduced your reverse%, there is a history etc) - then you will not be able to unlock
your withdraw (as many on here can testify) - the most common scenario where I see that exceptions are made is for first-time withdrawing players - they come on support asking for a flush - which we don't
have and often gets translated to a lock - then later on they realize they can't deposit and manage to convince us that they really did not expect their deposits to be locked. And when it happens we will always advise the customer to setup a maximum reverse% ..

and lastly, every casino offers deposit limits, mine included, and we very well both know the majority of people ignore them, and once a player does hit that dream win it makes no difference, the issue is reversing a win not limiting yourself to what you deposit.
Just as safe deposits can be used to claim bonuses - so do reversals count towards the deposit limit. I guess its the details that make things work - doing things ethically is hard to capture - there's no minimal ruleset .. imho, the interaction with support is a crucial parameter there .. you could go "nope sorry can't reverse" .. or you could go "What a nice win ! exceptional !! Good thing you withdrew before your winning streak ended. what did you hit ? and are you buying something nice with this ?" .. its a world of difference.

We both know that sometimes you get players that are so ecstatic that they have a hard time keeping a good perspective. Helping them understand that now instead of the hard way a couple of hours later is a win-win situation. Sometimes reason and casino balance seem inverse proportional .. especially when one of them changes rapidly .. that's another reason why I'm a firm believer in our chat system, great advice is given there - usually by players with lower balances to players with higher balances :). And if you do have the luxury of working in an environment like this - then standing your ground in the off case that reason fails is not that hard anymore - I've had players threaten me that they'd just deposit the exact same amount somewhere else if I did not let them deposit or reverse.

Which is btw, a scenario that we will never be able to avoid.

Cheers,

Enzo

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