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Your Input Please Responsible gambling and reversing withdrawals

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by chayton, Jan 24, 2015.

    Jan 24, 2015
  1. chayton

    chayton aka LooHoo CAG PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    Freelance Designer
    Location:
    Edmonton Canada
    Someone in the other thread had a good point and I wanted to open it up for discussion without derailing that thread.

    Do you think that casinos should limit the amount of withdrawals (either by $amount or number) that player can reverse?

    What about if the player has a deposit limit set? Do you think that should also include reversible withdrawals? So for instance if a player has a $200 weekly limit, they deposit $100 and win $2000 and cash out. They reverse $100 and after that, they've reached their deposit limit and can't reverse any more. Or is that the way it works already?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2015
    15 people like this.
  2. Jan 24, 2015
  3. nisosbar

    nisosbar Ueber Meister PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Other
    Location:
    Right here
    That's how it works on 3Dice if you want - ask customer support, but it's one of the best player-friendly features that I know. You can set the max reversible at 10%, or 20% or whatever.
     
    7 people like this.
  4. Jan 24, 2015
  5. hausse222

    hausse222 Experienced Member MM

    Location:
    Europe
    Withdrawals should be final like deposits. The reversing option is nothing but a way to increase the casinos profit.
     
    6 people like this.
  6. Jan 24, 2015
  7. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Right you've just reminded me of a common RG scam/dodge that some casinos do:

    Videoslots actually did this (I complained and shut my account as I really rate RG in a site) and I have heard it's now changed.

    What they did was offer a loss limit dressed up and mis-described as a deposit limit. Fine and good - except it didn't count winnings. This meant you could set a £100 DL and this wouldn't kick in until you'd LOST £100. So, as you inferred, you could deposit the £100, win 2k and would then subsequently need to lose £2100 to prevent further deposits. This is a LOSS LIMIT and not a deposit limit!

    To me a deposit limit is exactly that. 32red/guts/bet-at etc. all have these. You set it to £100, deposit £100 and win 2k, cash-out the 2k and you cannot deposit again until your week/month DL period starts again. Even then you must beware as some sites set their month not on a rolling month but reset on the 1st. day, so you could effectively deposit and lose a monthly limit twice in 2 days.

    It is also good that most sites follow a scheme whereby reductions start immediately but increases take 7 days to implement, i.e. a long cooling-off period. Most accredited sites do their utmost to help RG. A proper DL, 7-day cooling-off and allow you to cash-out say 2k with no pending, knowing you cannot deposit any of it back for at least 7 days and therefore spend your winnings elsewhere. It's a good-faith thing which demonstrates integrity.

    Now, I like the point about reversals you made. Should casinos be made to count this as a deposit? IMO yes! As soon as you register that w/d, it's then YOUR money. Then again we enjoy many casinos that don't have any reversal time anyway but would I support the LGAs enforcing this on sites with pending periods? Absolutely! Better still (and I think it'll happen eventually when they get a full understanding of players' wishes and stop swallowing the BS-line about 'convenience' casinos feed them) the LGA's should make w/d's final. Same as deposits.

    Or we could have a compromise; a small fee for a flush to cover each w/d transaction, so your running w/d's are never reversible.

    So, to summarize we are involved in a relatively new industry, barely 20 years old. Like all industries, over time regulatory bodies will be imposed, governments and consumer regulations will develop and eventually we will I believe see the end of reversible withdrawals, incentives to reverse etc. At the moment the tail is wagging the dog, hence the loopholes and lack of real player protection.

    Fortunately the good casinos (and we are blessed with plenty here) have grabbed the bull by the horns and done all this for us anyway - kudos to them and you know who you are! And please let's not turn this into a thread regarding 'whole number-colour' people!
     
    6 people like this.
  8. Jan 24, 2015
  9. funnymunny

    funnymunny Sometimes here, always 'away' webby

    Occupation:
    CEO
    Location:
    Isle of Man, Macau or Vegas

    I agree with the idea / sentiment & my thoughts are below…

    Limit by number of withdrawals
    I don’t think this will ever realistically work, as once players are aware of this kind of limitation, there’s the likelihood players could / would increase the value of any / all reversals to ensure they aren’t caught-out by this limit. Again (IMO) we’d also be in a situation where we’d see complaints that 'casino ‘X’ made me increase the size of my reversals because of their rules'


    Limit by value of withdrawals
    In an ideal world, I’d like to see the Regulators take the lead on this and ensure that all licensees under their jurisdiction had the ability for players to set their own values.

    I don’t think associating the max reversal value should be tied to being a multiple of a deposit limit. Many players may not actually have a deposit limit set, so what would happen in that situation? If a player is then forced to set a deposit limit on their account, so a reversal limit is also set, they may set the deposit limit so high that their reversal limit is ineffective. Many players may also feel aggrieved that they have to set themselves some limits & feel patronised / condescended to by the casino and / or Regulator. We’ve already seen the reaction by players in the US when the government has told them that they can’t play at some online casino’s… one of the most frequent responses being along the lines of ’who the hell are they to tell me what I can and can’t do with my money?’.

    As such, it’s my belief that a restriction on reversals should mirror that of deposits – you (as a player) set the max value, and a defined time period.

    The flip-side to this is of course the possibility that some players may then say 'the games at casino ‘y’ were super-hot, but they stopped me from winning, as I’d already hit my limit & I wasn’t allowed to reverse any more… It’s my money, but they were scared of me winning more'. (Admittedly, these may be few and far between, but I’d be willing to wager it would happen).

    We also need to bear in mind that it was stated that one of the reasons the casino had increased their pending period was as a result of the high costs being associated with deposits from players who had recently made a withdrawal. As such, a possible side-effect of implementing a limit on reversals could be that more casino’s start to charge for deposits. A bitter pill, but one I think most would swallow if they knew the rationale & realised that in the long-run, this could save them much more than it’s cost.



    Just my 2c & will be interested to read what others have to say
     
    2 people like this.
  10. Jan 24, 2015
  11. chayton

    chayton aka LooHoo CAG PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    Freelance Designer
    Location:
    Edmonton Canada
    Yes I thought of that too, and no doubt that would be an issue. However, if it was only for the players who set their deposit limits then the players who didn't want that feature don't need to set it and so it would never affect them. Or maybe that could be an extra option that's set IF you choose to set deposit limits - "Include reversed withdrawals? Yes or No"

    I'm sure it would involve extra programming in the cashier though - but you wouldn't think it would be THAT difficult to implement.

    lol besides, it the games were super-hot you wouldn't need to reverse your withdrawal, you'd just keep winning and withdrawing more and more! ;)

    Edit: Sorry I pushed the button before I was finished.

    To be honest, I doubt that even if something was changed that it would satisfy everyone. Lots of players are fine the way things are and can wait for days or weeks without even being tempted to reverse, others may have trouble even waiting 24 hours.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Jan 24, 2015
  13. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    The simple answer is to regulate out pending times. Period.
    Casinos MUST respect the player's choice at the time they made the withdrawal. No more, no less.
    Would they give me '24 hours pending' to decide if I wanted to reverse my deposit before playing?

    Even if there is a small fee, the players will mostly feel happy with the security of it all. Some do this without a fee, in fact many do and we don't hear them bleating about processing costs. Guts do it with a fee, and they are one of the two most popular casinos on here.

    Sorry, but the more casinos that find a way to stop pending periods (I'd say the majority of the accredited ones now) then the more shallow and BS the excuses of those who refuse to stop them sound.
     
    4 people like this.
  14. Jan 24, 2015
  15. cncas123

    cncas123 Quit Gambling PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Belfast
    I fell into the reversal trap earlier this month, thought that I was on such a hot run that i couldnt possibly lose as I had a very large withrawal pending. But after losing around 20% of the pending withdrawal through reversals, I requested a cool off until the withdrawal had cleared. But unfortunately I was able to reopen my accont before the withdrawal was processed, and managed to reverse it all and waste it. On the other thread it was mooted that a reversal is just the same as a deposit, but if you have had a good run, and have built up a good withdrawal, I for one know that I would never place bets as large as I did when I was reversing the withdrawal. It was my fault that I did reverse, but I do think that there is more that can be done on a responsible gambling level to help customers - because that is what we still are - who happen to have poor judgement when it comes to the reversal of withdrawals and knowing when to quit.
     
    4 people like this.
  16. Jan 24, 2015
  17. funnymunny

    funnymunny Sometimes here, always 'away' webby

    Occupation:
    CEO
    Location:
    Isle of Man, Macau or Vegas
    Yes, but didn't the Op in another thread state that 'the slots were hot' & how many times has it been said 'I just couldn't lose' :rolleyes:

    Slot games from legitimate sources are random (and independently tested to verify it). However emotions can take-over a players usual thought process - that's how they get into trouble & that's also when the're likely to come-up with all kinds of theories and comments. We'll likely never see an end to it, so I wanted to make sure that I had it covered :thumbsup:



    Agreed.

    Ultimately competition between the sites may also lead to any of these costs being eliminated / acceptance that this is an internal 'marketing' cost (or similar).
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Jan 25, 2015
  19. rshkrn

    rshkrn Senior Member

    Occupation:
    unemployed
    Location:
    Asia
    i really doubt you can get the casinos to agree to limit the no. of amount of reversals, there may be exceptions but it would be against their basic functioning I think
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Jan 25, 2015
  21. Krrk

    Krrk Full Member

    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Finland
    Pending periods that don't move on weekends have cost me enough to stop depositing on certain casinos.
     
    2 people like this.
  22. Jan 25, 2015
  23. spintee

    spintee Meister Member webby mm2

    Occupation:
    gambler :)
    Location:
    Northants
    Reversals, Most stupid thing I have heard in my life, If people really wanted to spend it than they bloody would not of withdrawn in the 1st place,

    I just read 3dice does a % thats a great idea,

    My opinion is that there should be a lock button there or a % of button, Also if you have a max depo limit than you should only be able to reverse up to that limit, Example: 500 limit & deposit 100, withdraw 1000 than than max reverse should be 400, I personally think the industry has wriggled around this one, If U.K regs have a self limit than what right have the casinos to let you reverse more than limit? I see a big loop hole there and something should be done about it
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Jan 25, 2015
  25. randomiam

    randomiam Meister Member

    Occupation:
    n/a
    Location:
    australia
    my view

    well i think there should be a option for players to disable reverses
    some players dont mind them some hate them
    i think over 24 hours pending is wrong
    you cash goes in instantly why cant it come out the same
    when it comes down to a wait that can be fine as-long as the cash cant be reversed
    ive reversed a few due to the win being the last of my bankroll and its a weekend if my cash was paid i would of only redeposited part
    the option to disable reverse is a good one that should be a option at pending time casinos
     
    2 people like this.
  26. Jan 25, 2015
  27. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK Senior Member CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    Pending Periods are designed to increase casino profits

    Pending periods and thus possibility to reverse are only there to improve the casino profit...period!!!

    This I know for a fact as i was once a, let's call it, super-VIP at the FL group with >500K in deposits/year (much less nowadays as i want to retire at 55 :) )and had my own personal VIP host. My withdrawals would be paid instantly after flushing except on weekends at a time where 2-3 days was the norm at MG casinos. Some 3 years ago they stopped flushing and introduced the mandatory 24hr pending period and my host told me that within a few months their profits jumped by >30%!!!! What an easy and fantastic way to improve profits.

    After reversing and losing a few big withdrawals within a short period of time I started looking for a new casino to play at and that is how i ended up at the 32RED group, who at the time paid 24/7/365 twice/day. That was by far the best at the time.

    Fact is the possibility to reverse withdrawals is certainly not responsible behavior by any casino. To restart the pending period after a partial reversal and re-withdraw makes it even worse as it prolongs the time the winnings can be reversed and hence increases the possibility for the casino that they will never have to pay out at all.

    Fact is my deposits are taken instantly. Just imagine you play in Las Vegas and you are taking your ticket to the cashier and they say "thank you sir, please come back tomorrow to pick-up your cash".

    Fact is that online casinos try to explain pending periods with security/play checks, player convenience and cost they have for deposits/withdrawals. MG and other providers have automatic systems to do security checks in a flash, cost for dep's/withd's are already factored into the cost calculation of running a casino before a new casino goes live, player convenience is just the lame excuse put upfront.

    Fact is that MG and other providers have systems in place and had this for years to have withdrawals paid automatically and instantly the soon you hit the Withdraw button. Yet only a few (albeit an increasing number) chose to use them.

    Pending periods and reversal possibilities are plain predatory practices!!! Nothing more, nothing less.

    Here's what i would propose:

    - you are OK with pending periods etc - leave everything as it is
    - you want instant withdrawals - put a button in the cashier "INSTANT" ...a small fee is deducted from your w/d and if that is not enough reduce my promotional bonus offers, this can be personalized easily & automatically by the software. If i have a good win i won't care if my DOTD gives me the next day a 25 or a 50% match. (As said above MG has this already in their software, just none of the download MG casinos activates and uses it, for reasons see post title)
     
    6 people like this.
  28. Jan 25, 2015
  29. fun4all

    fun4all Senior Member

    Occupation:
    .
    Location:
    .
    This is maybe not really a valid point but still, what gripes me the most about reverse withdrawals is how the industry always try and paint the picture that the ability to do that is to the players benefit.

    I mean that is just ridiculous. As far as I am concerned a withdrawal should just be that, a withdrawal.

    Casinos clearly hate withdrawals and seem to punish players who make them with bonus bannings etc. Ladbrokes have a term now no bonuses whilst you have a withdrawal pending.
     
    7 people like this.
  30. Jan 25, 2015
  31. chayton

    chayton aka LooHoo CAG PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    Freelance Designer
    Location:
    Edmonton Canada
    I can see that they would say that IF the casino charges you for deposits. Then it would make sense to be able to reverse part of your withdrawal and pay no fee rather than make a fresh deposit WITH a fee.

    But I'm pretty sure that deposits are going to cost a fee to either the casino or the player. If it's the casino that's picking up the tab every time a player deposits, those fees could add up over time and start to cut into the casino bottom line. I'm not sure how it works or if I'm talking out my bum here, but I imagine that it's something like this - I'm just making numbers up here but let's say that the fee for each deposit is 2%. So I deposit $100 and it costs the casino $2. I double my deposit and cash out $200. I deposit another $100, it costs the casino another $2. I make $150 and cash out. Then I deposit again....etc.

    So big deal I've cost the casino $6 on top of my winnings. But if there are a thousand people doing the same thing, or making 20 deposits a day.....Anyhow I'm just speculating, I don't have any idea how it really works!

    But in some cases I can see where being able to reverse might be good for the player - for instance, I have a prepaid card that I use to play now and it's got a limit of 2 loads per 24 hours. If I've used those up and have time to kill and want to play, I might reverse a withdrawal if I have one too.
     
    4 people like this.
  32. Jan 25, 2015
  33. spintee

    spintee Meister Member webby mm2

    Occupation:
    gambler :)
    Location:
    Northants
    Yes, (highlighted) If there is thousands of people doing this than there must be more losing so would balance out all the same, There is pro's and cons with all this as you pointed out about your limit on certain cards ect, Well this is where some sort of option was in place such as a % aloud
     
    1 person likes this.
  34. Jan 25, 2015
  35. luckyjay

    luckyjay Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    United States
    If 3Dice can process withdrawals the same day as requested, why can't others?

    The interesting thing about 3Dice is that they process withdrawals almost immediately -- so, even though you set up a reverse limit, its quite possible they've already processed the withdrawal before you have a chance to do an additional reversal! :notworthy

    So there is no way an online casino can say they support responsible gaming until they end the practice of unlimited reversals coupled with a deliberate delay in processing withdrawals. One of the base questions asked to determine problem gambling is, "When you win, do you gamble to try to extend your winning streak?" -- It's a known issue, so why can a casino which supports responsible gambling create a condition which feeds the winning streak myth?

    Cheers to 3Dice for setting the standard which all online casinos should follow!
     
    4 people like this.
  36. Jan 25, 2015
  37. mina888

    mina888 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    IT manager
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    GREAT IDEA

    I think the "reverse withdrawal" button should disappear all together. If there is no such a thing as reversing, I for one would only withdraw if Im 100% sure I do not want to play with my winnings anymore and I want my winnings, my money in my bank account.
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Jan 25, 2015
  39. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    Not casinos problem

    I am going to play the devils advocate here. I just got back from the casino and I could have/would have, if only, brought back a few thousand dollars. I CHOSE to blow it all back. Should this land based casino have stopped me from doing so? Should they have stepped in and told me NOT to play it all back? Of course not. This is called a CHOICE/DECISION>

    A player makes these decisions/choices whenever and wherever they play. Do you want land based casinos watching over your, setting these limits etc etc ...that is being proposed here? Of course not. Then why are you asking online casinos to something land based would never do?

    Do I regret at times not bringing home the winnings, only to go back into my pocket deeper and spending more during my visit? Sometimes., but ultimately, it is me that chose and made the decision to do this. NOT the casinos.

    I do not want to ever have to be "babysat" during my play at any casino, land based or web based. Why would any of you want this? There are no limits, stops or any other thing proposed here at any land based casino so why would you expect a web based one to set these in place?

    If I chose to withdraw and blow it all back, so be it...The same happens at land based casinos.. So, what is the answer? The answer is YOUR choices and decisions, no one else's. You can't blame anyone but yourself on the choices you make.

    A casino is there to make a profit We all know this. You start demanding/forcing casinos to babysit you, you will be in a world of hurt down the road...when they start limiting your access/deposits/time of play etc etc because you opened the gates to this, by asking for changes due to your own inability to take responsibility and to own the decisions you made, then there again is no one but yourself to blame on these changes if implemented by casinos.

    ***Caveat....When the word "you" is used, it is used in reference to no one in particular, a generality...

    .
     
    4 people like this.

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