[Resolved] Casino Club - robot or no bot?

[Rusty]

From the Rep;

c. Of the 14 hr. long session, only that the last ~7 hrs. are the suspicious ones, where the player both refines his strategy and begins his [fraudulent] winning streak

Surely you mean where the "bot" refines its strategy?

Obviously such a bold statement means you will be able to point out exactly what this strategy was.
Would you please do so as it appears none of the forum members have this ability and it would help your case greatly.

If you fail to do so then the obvious conclusion would be that your game is beatable because it uses algorithms to manipulate results and the player/bot gained knowledge of this.

All the Casino's "evidence" so far that a bot was used can all be challenged and explained away very easily.

I think if there is no reason and no advantage for a bot to be used in this situation that surely suggests it is more unlikely a bot was used?
I see that as good circumstantial evidence and better than the contrary evidence supplied by the Casino thus far.
After all that is all we have to go on, the weight of circumstantial evidence, so I can not agree it is a moot point.

We have Two issues here and I think they both need definitive answers.

What evidence of bot play is sufficient for a Casino to confiscate winnings?

Why does the Casino consider its Blackjack game to be beatable?
(If the Casino does not believe its game is beatable then how can a winning strategy be employed?)

 

[Przecinek]

So again Przecinek, unless you've got something constructive to add you might be better off saying a lot less than you have been, because your track record so far is to be talking a lot of shit.

Well, If this is how you feel about it then I guess I'll say no more. I though I have something to say on the topic of "Bot or not bot" question. I think that OP is innocent, some people think he's not, other's haven't made up their minds yet.

My apologies if you feel/felt offended Max.

 

[Kodi]

Dear All,

Casino Club has absolutely no issue with players winning at our Casino, and as I have said previoussly, we pay out close to 100K/day in player winnings.
As a public company, we have no interest in negative pubblicity or in witholding player wins.

We are pleased when players choose Casino Club as their online venue and we infact celebrate thier winnings not only by executing immediate payouts (within 24 hrs, and one fo the fastest online), but also by rewarding our big winners with gifts and the like.

Our only issue is with fraudulent players and, in our eyes, this case is a clear example.
I understand that most of the participants of this thread disagree, and it is their (your) prerogative, however we are certain of our conclusion, which in this case is final.

Can You tell me how You are dealing with players accused of bot usage? I give You example:

Player X sign up for you casino, he made 4 session...
1. he deposited 100 and get bonus which he play and lost
2. he deposit 200, no bonus, he lose it all
3. he deposit 400 and get bonus, and he used a BOT now. He lose 50 from his own money and then withdraw
4. one month later he deposit 200 get bonus and he won 10'000 He dont use bot now.

What you do now?

I know story that is almost same as my example, and CC void winnings, close account and dont even give deposits back. IMHO - its unfair and breaks CC terms and conditions!

 

[LaHutti]

Dear All,

Casino Club has absolutely no issue with players winning at our Casino, and as I have said previoussly, we pay out close to 100K/day in player winnings.
As a public company, we have no interest in negative pubblicity or in witholding player wins.

We are pleased when players choose Casino Club as their online venue and we infact celebrate thier winnings not only by executing immediate payouts (within 24 hrs, and one fo the fastest online), but also by rewarding our big winners with gifts and the like.

Our only issue is with fraudulent players and, in our eyes, this case is a clear example.
I understand that most of the participants of this thread disagree, and it is their (your) prerogative, however we are certain of our conclusion, which in this case is final.

Apparently it is not as clear to the majority of players, as it is to you (the casino). Now since it's so clear to you, why on earth don't you (the casino) come out, and tell the players, of whom at least some are visitors to your establishment, what excactly makes it so clear to you. Apparently there must be some differency in the way you see this, and the way the players (your costumers fer gods sake) see it. We can only base our views on what we've seen presented, and as it has been made more than clear by numerous players, we just don't see it !
I fear that in not providing the, to you, so clear evidence, a lot of players will make the decision not to visit your casino again, if they know their winnings could "clearly" be confiscated at your will...and in this case that could be just as "final" as your decision to confiscate this players winnings.

 

[steinhaug]

Why you keep analyzing such logs with your eyes I do not understand, I hope you use analyzing software or atleast write your own "bots" to do so.

regarding the breaks, I just pulled down the data from the other site - the complete data. And here is all breaks >= 2min.

Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -1 11.11.2008 16:46 95.5 / 94.5 
Break, 10 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -10 11.11.2008 16:56 100 / 90 
Break, 6 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -25 11.11.2008 17:18 140 / 115 
Break, 6 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -5 11.11.2008 17:40 195 / 190 
Break, 18 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -10 11.11.2008 18:12 340.5 / 330.5 
Break, 9 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -5 11.11.2008 18:48 445 / 440 
Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -5 11.11.2008 19:20 160 / 155 
Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -5 11.11.2008 19:47 345 / 340 
Break, 82 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -15 11.11.2008 20:17 485 / 470 
Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -20 11.11.2008 21:49 542.5 / 522.5 
Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -5 11.11.2008 21:56 605 / 600 
Break, 3 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -5 11.11.2008 22:11 725 / 720 
Break, 4 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -10 11.11.2008 22:33 890 / 880 
Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -10 11.11.2008 23:19 1510 / 1500 
Break, 22 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -100 11.12.2008 00:34 4000 / 3900 
Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -100 11.12.2008 02:12 4612.5 / 4512.5 
Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -100 11.12.2008 03:36 5127.5 / 5027.5 
Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -37,5 11.12.2008 04:07 7002.5 / 6965 
Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -25 11.12.2008 04:22 8165 / 8140 
Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 05:48 6155 / 5655 
Break, 2 min, Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:10 9750 / 9250

Simple logic applied previous posted script to achieve above stats:

  $_b1 = explode('.',$t[2]);
  $_b2 = explode(':',$t[3]);
  $this_hand_drawn = mktime ($_b2[0], $_b2[1] , 0, $_b1[0], $_b1[1], $_b1[2]);
  if($n[0] != 'WIN'){
    $_b1 = explode('.',$n[2]);
    $_b2 = explode(':',$n[3]);
  } else {
    $next2 = $lines[$i+2];
    $next2 = str_replace('Blackjack BJ_WIN1','WIN',$next2);
    $next2 = str_replace('Blackjack BJ BET1','BET',$next2);
    $next2 = trim($next2);
    $n2 = explode(' ',$next2);
    $_b1 = explode('.',$n2[2]);
    $_b2 = explode(':',$n2[3]);
  }
  $next_hand_drawn = mktime ($_b2[0], $_b2[1] , 0, $_b1[0], $_b1[1], $_b1[2]);
  if( ($next_hand_drawn - $this_hand_drawn) > 60){
    echo 'Break, ' . (int) (($next_hand_drawn - $this_hand_drawn)/60) . ' min, ' . $lines[$i] . "<br>\n";
  }

I like transparency in all forms of business, even if the world is corrupt in most ways!

 

[steinhaug]

Another one I compiled here, picking out all the different betsized used within each hour from start to end. Note that there are some uinregular betsizes, like $1250 - however I explain theese at the bottom.

Logic capplied PHP scrip:

  // Collect the data
  $hour_pointer = $_b1[2] . '-' . $_b1[1] . '-' . $_b1[0] . ':' . $_b2[0];
  $bet_variance[$hour_pointer][($t[1] * -1)]++;

  // Dump the data in forum format
        foreach($bet_variance AS $hour=>$data){
          echo '[b]' . $hour . '[/b]<br>';
          ksort($data);
          foreach($data AS $size=>$count){
            echo '...$' . $size . ': ' . $count . ' bets' . '<br>';
          }
        }

The results:

[b]2008-11-11:16[/b]
...$1: 46 bets
...$2: 4 bets
...$3: 4 bets
...$4: 3 bets
...$5: 2 bets
...$8: 1 bets
...$10: 2 bets
...$15: 2 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 64 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-11-11:17[/b]
...$1: 63 bets
...$2: 16 bets
...$3: 15 bets
...$4: 5 bets
...$5: 56 bets
...$6: 1 bets
...$10: 12 bets
...$15: 1 bets
...$25: 4 bets
...$30: 1 bets
...$50: 1 bets
...$75: 5 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 180 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-11-11:18[/b]
...$1: 20 bets
...$2: 1 bets
...$3: 6 bets
...$4: 1 bets
...$5: 86 bets
...$10: 10 bets
...$15: 4 bets
...$20: 1 bets
...$25: 4 bets
...$30: 2 bets
...$75: 1 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 136 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-11-11:19[/b]
...$1: 16 bets
...$2: 4 bets
...$3: 2 bets
...$4: 1 bets
...$5: 138 bets
...$10: 24 bets
...$15: 8 bets
...$20: 9 bets
...$25: 18 bets
...$30: 4 bets
...$35: 3 bets
...$45: 1 bets
...$50: 9 bets
...$75: 7 bets
...$100: 3 bets
...$150: 1 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 248 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-11-11:20[/b]
...$1: 4 bets
...$2: 4 bets
...$3: 1 bets
...$5: 44 bets
...$10: 9 bets
...$15: 4 bets
...$25: 2 bets
...$30: 2 bets
...$50: 4 bets
...$100: 5 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 79 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-11-11:21[/b]
...$5: 44 bets
...$10: 7 bets
...$15: 4 bets
...$20: 3 bets
...$25: 2 bets
...$30: 2 bets
...$35: 1 bets
...$40: 1 bets
...$75: 3 bets
...$100: 1 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 68 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-11-11:22[/b]
...$5: 170 bets
...$10: 51 bets
...$15: 17 bets
...$20: 9 bets
...$25: 11 bets
...$30: 3 bets
...$35: 1 bets
...$40: 1 bets
...$50: 2 bets
...$55: 1 bets
...$60: 1 bets
...$70: 1 bets
...$75: 6 bets
...$100: 1 bets
...$225: 1 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 276 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-11-11:23[/b]
...$1: 4 bets
...$3: 2 bets
...$4: 1 bets
...$5: 127 bets
...$10: 51 bets
...$15: 30 bets
...$20: 9 bets
...$25: 9 bets
...$30: 3 bets
...$40: 2 bets
...$45: 2 bets
...$50: 6 bets
...$55: 2 bets
...$60: 1 bets
...$75: 5 bets
...$100: 27 bets
...$125: 2 bets
...$200: 1 bets
...$625: 1 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 285 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-12-11:00[/b]
...$5: 50 bets
...$10: 16 bets
...$15: 18 bets
...$20: 2 bets
...$25: 6 bets
...$30: 2 bets
...$35: 2 bets
...$40: 3 bets
...$50: 4 bets
...$75: 6 bets
...$100: 59 bets
...$150: 5 bets
...$200: 3 bets
...$225: 1 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 177 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-12-11:01[/b]
...$5: 13 bets
...$10: 4 bets
...$15: 10 bets
...$25: 31 bets
...$30: 2 bets
...$35: 2 bets
...$50: 16 bets
...$55: 1 bets
...$60: 1 bets
...$75: 5 bets
...$100: 81 bets
...$150: 1 bets
...$200: 11 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 178 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-12-11:02[/b]
...$5: 6 bets
...$10: 1 bets
...$25: 56 bets
...$50: 8 bets
...$75: 6 bets
...$100: 160 bets
...$150: 8 bets
...$200: 14 bets
...$250: 1 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 260 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-12-11:03[/b]
...$25: 9 bets
...$50: 5 bets
...$75: 3 bets
...$100: 232 bets
...$150: 9 bets
...$200: 35 bets
...$250: 1 bets
...$300: 1 bets
...$375: 1 bets
...$500: 6 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 302 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-12-11:04[/b]
...$5: 1 bets
...$10: 1 bets
...$15: 1 bets
...$25: 58 bets
...$50: 22 bets
...$60: 1 bets
...$75: 6 bets
...$100: 36 bets
...$150: 6 bets
...$200: 7 bets
...$250: 2 bets
...$300: 8 bets
...$375: 4 bets
...$450: 1 bets
...$500: 72 bets
...$750: 3 bets
...$800: 2 bets
...$900: 1 bets
...$1000: 11 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 243 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-12-11:05[/b]
...$5: 1 bets
...$25: 7 bets
...$50: 4 bets
...$75: 2 bets
...$100: 41 bets
...$150: 1 bets
...$200: 9 bets
...$300: 8 bets
...$400: 1 bets
...$500: 187 bets
...$750: 6 bets
...$1000: 26 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 293 bets
...= = = = = = =
[b]2008-12-11:06[/b]
...$25: 8 bets
...$50: 8 bets
...$75: 4 bets
...$100: 9 bets
...$150: 2 bets
...$200: 1 bets
...$250: 2 bets
...$300: 1 bets
...$400: 1 bets
...$500: 179 bets
...$750: 7 bets
...$1000: 17 bets
...$1250: 1 bets
...- - - - - - -
...Total: 240 bets
...= = = = = = =

The $1250 clearly stand out from the full data, I would only guess this is spiltting and maby insuring a dealer BJ? The $1250 data is from this part of the data:

Blackjack BJ_WIN1 1250 11.12.2008 06:35 5800 / 7050
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:35 6300 / 5800
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:35 6800 / 6300
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:34 7300 / 6800
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 2000 11.12.2008 06:34 5300 / 7300
[B]Blackjack BJ BET1 -1250 11.12.2008 06:34 6550 / 5300[/B]
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 1000 11.12.2008 06:34 5550 / 6550
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:34 6050 / 5550
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 1250 11.12.2008 06:34 4800 / 6050
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:34 5300 / 4800
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:33 5800 / 5300

 

[tofu23]

From the Rep;

c. Of the 14 hr. long session, only that the last ~7 hrs. are the suspicious ones, where the player both refines his strategy and begins his [fraudulent] winning streak

Surely you mean where the "bot" refines its strategy?



Why does the Casino consider its Blackjack game to be beatable?
(If the Casino does not believe its game is beatable then how can a winning strategy be employed?)

You see CM himself renamed this thread "robot or no bot" and has proceeded under the impression that the matter is reduced to this simple equation of whether a 'bot' was used - yea or nay.

But now Rusty is starting to dig in under the 'bot play' pretense. As quoted above, 7 hours of bj play does not make a 'bot' player. But a 'refined strategy' and a 'winning streak' does doth make a 'bot' player according to our Casino Club friends.

And knowing the mathematics of the game such 'winning streak' must be fraudulent for one reason, and one reason only. The BM sw is non-random.

And Casino Club are pissed that their non-random game has been exploited - and have the utter gall to point a fraudulent accusing finger at the OP.

And no matter how many times one pleads Casino Club to unequivocally state their 'fraudulent case', they are never likely to 'fess up to a non-random game as the basis to their spurious claims.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

I AM BOT, J/K!!

Or a liar as I have been told time and time again!!! Below are 2-time and transaction logs excerpts below. (Can email the entire CSV if it possibly helps a la a over time just about anything and everything can and will occur assuming a fair game in gaming specific situations)

A less than $1000 deposit, 300 or so hands later I do my best to bust out with my usual high risk of ruin. Doesn't happen (this time,lol).

Over the next 14 consectutive days, 48,000 hands were played , $48,000,000.00 plus wagered!!.......... Hours played???, Too many but the math in my case is just a statistic as Mr. Twain reminds me/us!!

I was 86'ed from the Venetian via false accussations after a $30,000,000.00 handle and being .49% above (my favor) the casinos theoretical expectation. Hence, I was compelled to take legal action as a matter of principle or better said a violation of one's constitutional and civil rights. An absurd concept!!

The above said, I as well as most members are not privy to the entire PAB facts,etc. We, ususually , are not whatever the reasons including but not limited to player privacy, legal, and other reasons/issues. Yes, iirc, it also has been said especially in all these fraud per se issues that the PAB process would not work without CM et al, the player advocates/casino watchdogs respectfully, protecting the security of the casinos. (Reps. circumvent issues via the same reason)..............A double edged sword or paradox. Moreover, it may be this lack of transparency (whether nature of the beast ,lol, or not) that is compelling some of the issues in this thread.

 

[maxd]

My apologies if you feel/felt offended Max.

:steam ON:

I don't "feel" offended, I am offended, for the reasons cited above. You were trying to shoot holes in Casinomeister as a site and as my employer because of what you deemed to be ... what, an imperfect offering of FREE dispute resolution services?

Such attacks are unfounded, uncalled-for and unwelcome. You were just taking potshots because you think you can and that's what has me steamed.

You want the details? See my previous post.

And before you go off on the "oh, sorry I can't question your decisions" snit I'll remind you that it's not what you question, it's how you "question" it. Saying we might as well shut down the PABs, and that "we all remember" my Lucky Ace screw-up as if that's the only other case I've worked on this year is idiocy and bullshit, as previously stated.

Ask the players whose monies have been recovered, all $350,000-plus of it, if they think we should kill the PABs. Ask them how well they "remember" the Lucky Ace thing. It's perspective you're missing here buddy, and that's what I'm offering you a slice of.

Trolls crap on the linoleum because it creates a big fuss which they get off on. Participating members of this forum community contribute to the discussions because they get something out of it and they want to help others where they can. Which one are you?

If you're a troll then yes, "piss off" is probably great advice for you. If your serious about being a contributing member here then think 10 seconds before you post shit like you did earlier in this thread.

:steam OFF:

 

[steinhaug]

Attached you find the complete PHP script and complete playlog for the player. I suspect some of you would like this.

If you don't have PHP installed locally, you could easily upload the script and TXT file to your webhotell and run the script in your browser.

Enjoy.

 

[Westland Bowl]

There is no such court and such speculation is not really relevant to the issue. We're talking about how it's done on a day-to-day basis in the real world. And in the real world play pattern analysis is used every day to detect bot and cheat system play.

That may not be to everyone's taste but it is reality.

Furthermore in most bot use cases there would be no tampering with the software, that's the whole point of bots! They're just playing the game as it is instead of the player playing. No tampering, hacking, etc involved.

If we want regulation of the online gambling community, there will be a court for actions like this.

So if there is no tampering, hacking, etc. of the casino's software, then there is no tampering of the Random Number Generator (RNG)! Why would the casinos act like they got a friggin' broomstick up their ass if the RNG is not manipulated, bot or no bot??? It shouldn't matter to the RNG or casino if their software and RNG is not compromised!! To me, the bot accusation is a Strawman built up to point to and knock down in order to deny winnings.

(By the way, Maxd, I'm not yelling at you in the above paragraph! Just thinking out loudly and publicly! : ))

 

[The Dude]

Okay,

To begin - I want to thank everyone who is participating in a positive way in this thread. There is a hell of a lot of valuable information here - and volatile as it may be - I really appreciate those who have been level headed about this and maintained their mellowness.

I have been pounding my brain cells on this and taking a myriad things into account - some of which is not privy to most of the forum members. Using this information, I concluded that the original findings of the casino were spot on.

I am still looking into this, and have engaged a few third parties to assist. And this may take a couple of days since it's Thanksgiving in the States and some people may not be readily available.

But regardless, what I have been gathering so far is changing my outlook on things - I believe I may have been reading the data wrong, which changes things somewhat. To be fair and honest, I'll have to admit that I am not convinced a bot was used. So I get a little crow instead of turkey this Thanksgiving - well that's just the way it is sometimes. But I hope you realize that Max and I will strive to do the right thing - and that's what we've been doing from the git go. And it's those members who contribute their constructive criticisms and analysis who can take the credit for bringing these things to light. Thanks again. This is what makes this community extremely valuable to the online gaming community. It's not just me, Max, Spear, and Simmo that bring value to this forum, it's you.

The bottom line is that in this case, I am unsure whether or not the casino has analysed the data correctly (I know I didn't). At this time I'm hoping that they will reopen this and take a fresh look - perhaps engaging the assistance of a third party. Fair is fair - I don't think this was done deliberately, and I understand that there are a number of circumstances that could contribute to the initial impression of a bot being used.

Again, give this a few days to be ironed out. And be cool about it.

 

[The Dude]

I should add "kimss, you're a star."

 

[maxd]

So if there is no tampering, hacking, etc. of the casino's software, then there is no tampering of the Random Number Generator (RNG)!

That's right, using a bot usually entails zero software tampering.

The reason the casinos don't like bots is -- if I read the party line correctly -- because they're offering games to humans not to programs.

Another way to look at it is that humans make more mistakes (supposedly) than 'bots and ... well, they lose more money and faster because they don't follow perfect strategy, etc etc.

Advantage players can use bots to maximize their chances in low margin games like BJ, especially if there are bonuses involved which effectively tilt the margin more toward the player.

Bottom line though is that if the casino doesn't like bots then the casino doesn't like bots. It's their choice and if a player uses one anyway -- not saying that about any particular player just players in general -- then their winnings are rightly forfeit if that's what's spelled out in the T&Cs.

That's really what's at the heart of this particular issue: the question is "did the player use a bot or no?" If no, then we've been barking up the wrong tree and ... as B said, a little crow for Thanksgiving this year. If yes, the player was botting, then their ass is grass because it's strictly forbidden in the T&Cs.

 

[Jufo]

The reason the casinos don't like bots is -- if I read the party line correctly -- because they're offering games to humans not to programs.

Another way to look at it is that humans make more mistakes (supposedly) than 'bots and ... well, they lose more money and faster because they don't follow perfect strategy, etc etc.

Tofu23 made a good point about "Responsible gambling". Almost all casinos encourage players to gamble responsibly, and bots are the prime example of responsible gambling. So isn't banning bots in fact saying: We don't actually want you to gamble responsibly, so that we get more.

 

[steinhaug]

I should add "kimss, you're a star."

:notworthy Thanks! I will meet you in London next january, I will take the trip and share some beers. After all - after my Red Flush win I have the money too,

After getting the hang of this data I quickly moved from my initial over-the-top post to a more "neutral" observer since my reaction was indeed pre-mature. Compiling data and using different visualization-models quickly shares new light on most matters. Looking at the lifetimedata of the user, accumulating some statistical footprints from the sessions looking at hands pr hour, agressiveness during time, day of week whatever. The more data the more possibilities to do statistical diggs and comparisons.

Using a day or two, one could easily create a stat-analyzer which creates graphs and curves in all kinds of views and dimensions, and maby by luck one visualization-model stands out as an obvious detection scheme. Problem is - publicicing such a footprint/trend/graph would be foolish ironically, since then a bot - if existing that is - could easily be tweaked to avoid such a detectable footprint. I know bezier curves usually are fun to play with!

Then again, what are stats for really... Looking at stats, the safest way to drive is under the influence of alcohol (statistically you don't crash as often!).

So what does it all mean... I'll leave it to the professionals to solve this one!

 

[Westland Bowl]

That's right, using a bot usually entails zero software tampering.

The reason the casinos don't like bots is -- if I read the party line correctly -- because they're offering games to humans not to programs.

Another way to look at it is that humans make more mistakes (supposedly) than 'bots and ... well, they lose more money and faster because they don't follow perfect strategy, etc etc.

Ohh, ok. I understand that viewpoint now. Yes, human error is an advantage to the casino and botting eliminates that. I kinda thought that normal random blackjack card drawing gets to the same end result (player loses money) in any case, but I guess human error gets there faster.

Advantage players can use bots to maximize their chances in low margin games like BJ, especially if there are bonuses involved which effectively tilt the margin more toward the player.

Ah, ok. I don't bonus hunt so I didn't understand the thinking of a bonus player.

Bottom line though is that if the casino doesn't like bots then the casino doesn't like bots. It's their choice and if a player uses one anyway -- not saying that about any particular player just players in general -- then their winnings are rightly forfeit if that's what's spelled out in the T&Cs.

And that I can agree with. Certainly casinos have their right to ban bots and the player using bots would be in violation of the terms.

That's really what's at the heart of this particular issue: the question is "did the player use a bot or no?" If no, then we've been barking up the wrong tree and ... as B said, a little crow for Thanksgiving this year. If yes, the player was botting, then their ass is grass because it's strictly forbidden in the T&Cs.

Right on. Thanks for clearing up for me (and hopefully others) the issues.

Can you determine bot play from player bet sizing aka pattern analysis?....well, I don't know. Going from bad basic strategy to perfect basic strategy?....then I think yes, bot play is likely. Playing 20+ hands a minute for hours?.....yes, I think bot play is likely.

Interesting thread! Thanks, Maxd

 

[spearmaster]

Can you determine bot play from player bet sizing aka pattern analysis?....well, I don't know. Going from bad basic strategy to perfect basic strategy?....then I think yes, bot play is likely. Playing 20+ hands a minute for hours?.....yes, I think bot play is likely.

Bet sizing would not in itself indicate a bot - it would, however, most likely indicate a method of play (in other words, a system).

Going from bad BS to perfect BS also would not indicate a bot - sometimes people "feel" certain cards coming and throw the strategy out the door... and when that doesn't work, go right back to playing perfect BS. Although I personally try to play perfect BS, there are times - especially with a big bet on the table - when I do the stupid thing and play according to my gut feelings instead.

Playing 20+ hands a minute for hours MIGHT indicate bot play, but this is not certain- given a fast net connection, I've known VP players who can play at this speed (arguably a lot tougher to do than BJ).

The short answer is - only the poorest, most basic, simple bots will ever be caught - it does not take a rocket scientist to create a bot that will be completely unpredictable (apologies to Vortran).

And since it is just stupid to ban bot play anyhow, personally I feel that all operators should throw out their bot ban terms and conditions - unless they feel that their own software is NOT fair and can be beaten. However I do support (in general) a restriction on the use of bots when a bonus is in play, though personally I'd rather see all the casinos stop throwing out silly bonuses as well (now risking the wrath of others LOL).

 

[Zodiac]

Okay,

To begin - I want to thank everyone who is participating in a positive way in this thread. There is a hell of a lot of valuable information here - and volatile as it may be - I really appreciate those who have been level headed about this and maintained their mellowness.

I have been pounding my brain cells on this and taking a myriad things into account - some of which is not privy to most of the forum members. Using this information, I concluded that the original findings of the casino were spot on.

I am still looking into this, and have engaged a few third parties to assist. And this may take a couple of days since it's Thanksgiving in the States and some people may not be readily available.

But regardless, what I have been gathering so far is changing my outlook on things - I believe I may have been reading the data wrong, which changes things somewhat. To be fair and honest, I'll have to admit that I am not convinced a bot was used. So I get a little crow instead of turkey this Thanksgiving - well that's just the way it is sometimes. But I hope you realize that Max and I will strive to do the right thing - and that's what we've been doing from the git go. And it's those members who contribute their constructive criticisms and analysis who can take the credit for bringing these things to light. Thanks again. This is what makes this community extremely valuable to the online gaming community. It's not just me, Max, Spear, and Simmo that bring value to this forum, it's you.

The bottom line is that in this case, I am unsure whether or not the casino has analysed the data correctly (I know I didn't). At this time I'm hoping that they will reopen this and take a fresh look - perhaps engaging the assistance of a third party. Fair is fair - I don't think this was done deliberately, and I understand that there are a number of circumstances that could contribute to the initial impression of a bot being used.

Again, give this a few days to be ironed out. And be cool about it.

Hoped that you will post this, because at the afternoon and your posts before i was not sure more what you will do.

And i believe you wasn't sure too.

Finally hope that the third parties become the same impression that all was a correct playing session in this affair.

I hope this for the player too and that CC must review again.

CM and with all his experiences members here is a very great community and if you or we can't help who can do it ?

 

[The Dude]

But how can Casino Club rule that the case has been closed even though Casinomeister is still analyzing the data?..

You can tone it down now. I've asked them to take a relook at this issue. It's late at night, and I may not get a response for a day or two.

:notworthy Thanks! I will meet you in London next january, I will take the trip and share some beers. After all - after my Red Flush win I have the money too, !

Actually, all members of this forum will be invited to the annual "Meister Meeting" which will be held at Waxy O'Conners on the 27th Jan. 5 - 8pm proceeded with a tour guided pub crawl through Picadilly/Leicester Square

 

[NASHVEGAS]

The $1250 clearly stand out from the full data, I would only guess this is spiltting and maby insuring a dealer BJ? The $1250 data is from this part of the data:

Blackjack BJ_WIN1 1250 11.12.2008 06:35 5800 / 7050
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:35 6300 / 5800
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:35 6800 / 6300
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:34 7300 / 6800
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 2000 11.12.2008 06:34 5300 / 7300
[B]Blackjack BJ BET1 -1250 11.12.2008 06:34 6550 / 5300[/B]
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 1000 11.12.2008 06:34 5550 / 6550
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:34 6050 / 5550
Blackjack BJ_WIN1 1250 11.12.2008 06:34 4800 / 6050
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:34 5300 / 4800
Blackjack BJ BET1 -500 11.12.2008 06:33 5800 / 5300

Good Info But Need To See The Hand Histories, (not sure if part of the zip download as I could not open ,yet!!). Then Want To Look At The Hourly Logs And Order Of The Bet Size Amount Distributions. Is This A Peek or No PeeK Game And Are Their Any Other Rules That Differ From A Basic Vegas/AC Game As I Am Not Familar With This Casino??? Any Help Appreciated!!!

I am currently auditing, yes moi, 100,000 hands of BJ. Most are flat max. bets but for different reasons there are hands where my bet size varies but not each hour with the distribution range of amounts as posted. I may post a simulated study on the fallacy of those that preach progression systems (a rude awakening awaits them).

Kimss,nothing unusual about hand #51030 below. I noticed a laid $200 bet (right bolded number) post on my hand histories as simply 4 figure bet multiple times. Somewhat misleading below as provided until the hand histories clarify. Not sure if the same is applicable to the bet size amounts you post for the OP as I may need to reread all, visit other forum, get your zip file to open.

51024 Dealer: 3s,Tc,Ac,3s Player: Jh,4d (14) -200 200 8/26/2008 14:45
51025 Dealer: 7c,5c,Ad,Ac,Qc Player: Js,5c,5c (20) 200 200 8/26/2008 14:45
51026 Dealer: Jd,Ks Player: Ac,8h (19) -200 200 8/26/2008 14:45
51027 Dealer: Ac,Ad Player: Jc,2c,Ts (22) -200 200 8/26/2008 14:45
51028 Dealer: 7c,5c,8h Player: 9s,Td (19) -200 200 8/26/2008 14:45
51029 Dealer: 5s,4c,9h Player: Jh,Kh (20) 200 200 8/26/2008 14:46
51030 Dealer: 4c,Jc,2h,Qd Player: 7s,3d,6c (16) Doubled Split 7d,8d (15) Split 7s,2c,Td (19) Doubled Split 1000 1000 8/26/2008 14:46
51031 Dealer: Qc,Js Player: 2s,2c,Qc,7h (21) 200 200 8/26/2008 14:46
51032 Dealer: 7h,7h,Js Player: 6s,9d,6h (21) 200 200 8/26/2008 14:46
51033 Dealer: 6s,Ah,5d,Qc Player: 6c,5d,Ah (12) Doubled 400 400 8/26/2008 14:46
51034 Dealer: Qd,9c Player: 5s,2c,Js (17) -200 200 8/26/2008 14:47
51035 Dealer: Qd,Td Player: 3d,9d,6s (18) -200 200 8/26/2008 14:47

 

[Jasminebed]

Perfect strategy

Perfect strategy for blackjack is widely known. Most casinos sell cards in their gift shop. Sites like

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and many other offer strategy charts. They are not that difficult to memorize.

The data we have does not indicate if the player players perfectly or not...just whether he wins or loses a hand. Perhaps the casino has provided Maxd and Brian with more data than the player has been able to provide from his logs.

I am glad that Casinomeister is willing to reconsider their impression of the player's play, and I hope they can convince Casino Club to do likewise.

On the note that this session differs from the player's other sessions, there could be many reasons. My playtime is short when I do not win. Perhaps his initial deposit was larger than normal, allowing more bets at higher levels to be used. He may have "won" this money elsewhere and felt he could take larger risks. Maybe the wife was out of town and he was bored. He could be taking Prednisone or some other drug prescribed for him. I know I was pretty "zippy" on Prenisone before surgery, and had three sleepless nights in the two weeks I was on it, and no night longer than 4 hours asleep.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Perfect strategy for blackjack is widely known. Most casinos sell cards in their gift shop. Sites like

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

and many other offer strategy charts. They are not that difficult to memorize.

"Beware, many casinos will intentionally sell (or give away) flawed basic strategy cards in their on-site shops"-Eliot Jacobson,THE BLACKJACK ZONE

Another excellent site for basic strategy tables (sorry affilates) is

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Back to scheduled programming

 

[WAYLANDER]

My Feelings

This is how i see the issue...

In the favour of the casino:-
If the player did indeed use a bot ( i can not see any evidence to show this, but i am not privy to it all ) then it is banned in the terms... so tough luck

In the favour of the player:-
1 Where is the motive ? no bonus no gain
2 Who on earth would let a bot make decisions with that amount of money, especially considering the bankroll... a bad run at $1000 bets and its all gone in minutes
3 Playing 14 hours with small breaks... Nothing too unusual there for a seasoned gambler
4 Unusual playing patterns... i am sure most gamblers have had the " red mist " some time in their lives and done stupid/different things ... one example for me was playing on my usual poker site and having two bad beats in close succession which cost me about $70 ... 5 minutes later i had clicked the Blackjack button which i had never done before and was making $100 bets ... very unusual but not fraudulant !

The data shown doesn't IMOA show sign of bot play.... just gambling using some kind of bet increasing system

WAYLANDER

 

[spearmaster]

"Beware, many casinos will intentionally sell (or give away) flawed basic strategy cards in their on-site shops"-Eliot Jacobson,THE BLACKJACK ZONE

LMAO... why am I not surprised?

I suppose if they get caught out they can always point to the "Printed in Timbuktu" as an excuse...