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Recession could it affect the gambler?

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by NewOrleans, Apr 7, 2009.

?

Is the recession effecting casino payout ratios?

  1. YES

    17 vote(s)
    58.6%
  2. NO

    12 vote(s)
    41.4%
    Apr 7, 2009
  1. NewOrleans

    NewOrleans Banned User

    Occupation:
    gambling
    Location:
    Canada New Brunswick
    Since people are earning smaller paychecks and have a hard time getting loans and yada yada yada,I was wondering could this cause casinos to lower the payout rates?Seems everyone is getting slaughtered lately and also are the paytables being nerfed?
     
  2. Apr 7, 2009
  3. Paul@JetCasino

    Paul@JetCasino Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Casino Manager
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It's all relative - so long as people are playing, the payout will remain balanced.
     
  4. Apr 7, 2009
  5. AussieDave

    AussieDave Dodgy whacko backstabber

    Occupation:
    Gaming SEO Specialist & Casino Webmaster
    Location:
    Australia
    From an aff point of view I've lost a BIG whale in the last 2 months. (average $50K drop a month).

    On the flip I've gained more mid sized players ($3 - 5K drops each month).

    I don't think the recession will affect pay-outs per say.

    But maybe software providers that earn royalties (& or) casinos that have pulled out of countries due to the UIGA, could lend itself to speculations that games have been tweaked to lessen the cash loss. Which would retroactively affect the pay-out %.

    Some cynical food for thought :D

    Cheers
    T
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Apr 7, 2009
  7. uungy

    uungy Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred PABaccred

    This sounds like all the other bigger companies that are trying to "fight through" the recession.

    Won't companies ever learn, that putting up prices means maybe a larger profit, but buyers will end up purchaing elsewhere cheaper, so smaller revenues.

    The same really is here. If the payout is reduced, eventually players will no longer play, so there will be a smaller amount of players.

    I think using common sense is all thats needed, and sometimes getting through the recession without major profits is an achievement on its own
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Apr 7, 2009
  9. kmay87

    kmay87 Meister Member PABnononaccred PABaccred2

    Occupation:
    Barrister
    Location:
    England
    It could also be seen, albeit negatively, that people are going to use casinos during the recession even more in the hope of a win to help relieve things.

    Of course we all know this shouldn't happen, but you can't help but think some will try it.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Apr 7, 2009
  11. tombee

    tombee Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    Wageningen, Netherlands
    I have got the feeling that the poorer a country is, the more lotto and other means of gambling are being practiced. I've been too poor countries where you can buy lotto tickets everywhere. So maybe indeed, the lesser money people have, the more they gamble hoping for that life changing win. On the other hand, our national casino (Holland casino) is losing money last couple of months. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Apr 7, 2009
  13. love2winalot

    love2winalot Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Roulette Player
    Location:
    Philippines/Visiting Las vegas
    Hiya: The Casino's here in Vegas are getting killed. MGM just sold Treasure Island, and are ready to sell another property they own. Construction on New Casino's have almost all stopped. Station Casino's is going to file Bankruptcy, not to close, but to re orginise, to help with their deps.

    Hmmmmmm, No single 0 Roulette tables, 6/5 blackjack instead of 3/2, Tighter slots, What could have gone wrong???????????

    I do not see it affecting payouts on the internet, but affecting bonus offers, lower table limits, the max money you can get paid in a week/month, and like that. All of this make the current players a Casino has even more valuable. Those that survive took care of their player base, and those who did not squeezed their player base for every last penny they could get before they all left.
     
  14. Apr 7, 2009
  15. carjaw

    carjaw Full Member

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Swansea
    Dare i say it - but i have written a paper on this very subject. Vegas and Macau for example are showing that they are not recession proof (certainly not as recession proof as once thought). Increasingly individuals are turning to their computers more and more. Global Betting and Gaming Consultants (2009) shows that entertainment choices are developing due to economic pressure, leading to more people deciding to stay home and look to computers for leisure activity. The consultancy argues that Internet gambling offers convenience, choice and value desired by modern consumers. 2010 promises to be as good or better for Internet casinos due to several legal changes which should boost available markets. For example, France has yielded to pressure from the European Commission to open up to competition in online gambling. The anticipated repeal of the UIGEA by the US and the official resurrection of the US market will boost the market further, however, even though there is currently the payment ban in place against online casinos, US patrons still account for half of all Internet gambling revenue (Lewis, 2009). With greater familiarity with Internet gambling sites and the security of impending US regulation to protect consumers, the numbers of Internet gamblers could only expand, perhaps creating a permanent shift in preference for Internet gambling over traditional venues that may last beyond economic recoveryThe Economist (2009) reported that cyber-hedonism (which inlcudes internet gambling) might even be considered a cheap, easily accessible diversion from the discomfort of modern living, particularly for those experiencing the negative effects of the recession. As for comments effecting payout rates, I do not have the knowledge to comment.
     
    2 people like this.
  16. Apr 7, 2009
  17. NewOrleans

    NewOrleans Banned User

    Occupation:
    gambling
    Location:
    Canada New Brunswick
    Yes I did notice that the maximum bets on classic blackjack have dropped to 63 which is a very weird number for a limit...why 63? why not 60? That means it was reduced by a % most likely and all the other limits were reduced I noticed!
    Very good observation
     
  18. Apr 8, 2009
  19. love2winalot

    love2winalot Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Roulette Player
    Location:
    Philippines/Visiting Las vegas
    Hiya. Maybe becuse 1-2-4-8-16-32-"64", hehehehe.
     
  20. Apr 9, 2009
  21. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I doubt anything can happen to payouts to CURRENT games on platforms such as MGS, but for RTG this is a different matter. I have myself seen that different RTG casinos use different paytables on their table and video poker games, although most assert that they stick to 95% on the slot games.

    One thing I have noticed though is a reduction in the value of casino promotions. The prize pools have been reduced, or some clever marketing has been used, having the same prize pool, but running the promotion over a longer period. The casinos STILL offering large bonuses have tightened up the rules, mainly playthrough & game restrictions.

    There have been some views expressed that the newer offerings from MGS do not appear to pay as much as the older games. Since no individual payout expectations are published, we have no way of immediately refuting these claims. There will always be variations in payouts between individual slot games, simply down to the complex mathematics behind them, and I am sure software vendors operate to a target range, rather than an exact figure. With MGS for example, Zoozie built a software simulator for many slots, and found that there were variations around 95% for individual games, some a little above, others slightly below. Thunderstruck, for example came out at 95.01% (I believe), whereas Tally Ho was close to 96%, but with higher variance.

    If operators are lowering payouts, it will most likely be with slots, since this would go largely unnoticed, or even if noticed, cannot be proven.
     
  22. Apr 10, 2009
  23. alexbuzz

    alexbuzz Dormant account

    Occupation:
    online casino guy
    Location:
    London
    throw it up on Scribed or somewhere and post a link to that paper, por favor!
     
  24. Apr 10, 2009
  25. carjaw

    carjaw Full Member

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Swansea
    The paper was published on 8 April 2009 at an EBEN (European Business Ethics Network) conference - I will post a link when one becomes available for all those interested ....
     
  26. Apr 12, 2009
  27. NicolasJohnson

    NicolasJohnson Dormant account

    Location:
    A Place
    NO payout ratios should NEVER CHANGE

    Hi Everyone,

    For any reputable casino, game payout ratios should never change and should always stick to Vegas standards for land based casinos. :thumbsup:

    About the recession putting the pressure on online casinos... I couldn't say, we opened our doors in the middle of this economic storm and have fared quite well.

    You could call me the eternal optimist, but I see a recession being good for the consumer, as demand drops and supply stays constant or increases, companies will be willing to accept lower profit margins to vie for your dollars. Making their promotions, and therefore payouts, better for the consumer.

    Kind Regards,
    Nicolas Johnson
    You must register/login in order to see the link. Manager
     
  28. Apr 13, 2009
  29. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    As far as PROMOTIONS are concerned, the complete OPPOSITE is happening. I have seen a marked drop in the VALUE, if not the FREQUENCY of my regular loyalty promos. There has also been some rejigging of some aspects. To give an example, Palace Group have introduced a new loyalty scheme. On the one hand, there is a SLIGHT increase in the number of loyalty points that can be gained per $ wagered, HOWEVER, value has been DECIMATED by a change to how these points are treated. In the past, they were credited as CASH, and could be IMMEDIATELY withdrawn, but now they are credited as BONUS chips, and MUST BE PLAYED 30x (slots) MINIMUM before they can be withdrawn. On average, this makes these points pretty worthless, since at 30x playthrough, you will, in the long term, lose ALL of them, even though you can win if you catch some positive variance. This kind of sneaky move is being rolled out at quite a few MGS casinos, and on top of this, the value of bonus chips per $ deposited is being reduced through various means.
    It is harder to see any real effects in terms of game payouts, but we KNOW that SOME softwares can "tweak" the games to vary either the variance, or average payout, or both. Rival, TopGame, and RTG have gone on record admitting that their software allows this, whereas MGS say that once a game is released, it does not vary.
    Many players are becoming increasingly convinced that games "play differently" to how they played before, although they cannot put a value on this difference. Generally, the impression is that this "difference" is to the advantage of the house.

    One thing that has bucked the trend is that more new casinos than ever are being launched in this recession. This may not necessarily be a good thing for players, since a recession increases the risk of any one business going bust, and MORE businesses chasing FEWER Dollars (or Pounds) means that there are bound to be failures as well as successes. Failures can see PLAYERS losing money they have on deposit at the business, as can be seen with the long running TUSK saga where several MILLION of PLAYER'S Dollars have disappeared into the ether, with expectations being that only 15c in the Dollar will be recovered.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2009
  30. Apr 13, 2009
  31. NicolasJohnson

    NicolasJohnson Dormant account

    Location:
    A Place
    reminds me of something my father taught me

    well thank you for setting me straight :notworthy


    You know, this reminds me of something my father taught me. He told me:

    The thing is, I can't get over my optimist vision of the world. :lolup:
     

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