Rant about 888 Casino

[ecopac]

Hi Guys

Just need to vent a bit here really. I made a withdrawal on Tuesday for £200 from 888, this was from an initial £50 deposit via debit card.

Yesterday I get notice that they've paid me £30 via paypal for some reason (I deposited with this method ages ago), I then login at see they've also paid £50 back to my card, leaving £120 in process.

It's now Saturday and still £120 in process and the £50 hasn't hit my account either.

I mean how the hell is this an acceptable withdrawal period or method??? Is this the norm at 888 as it's the fist (and last) withdrawal I have made here.

Grrrrrr

 

[Osloking]

Some place pay back to the deposit option you made first and then you can withdraw to the other withdraw option you may request.

if i deposit 100£ using neteller say at bet365 and few weeks later i deposit with another deposit option and later i withdraw, i must first withdraw 100£ back to neteller before i can withdraw to the recent deposit method.

for 5 year ago i lost 1800$ because pokerroom sent some of my withdraw money back to the visa gift card wich i had deposited with and of course i had thrown those gift cards in the garbage after use.. buuuuuurn

 

[ecopac]

Thanks for the reply, I totally get that principal but now it's a week tomorrow that I requested the withdrawal and they've still only processed £80 of the £200 requested, it's getting a bit of a joke now. On the same day (last Tuesday) I made a withdrawal at Tote Casino and it was in my account 2 days later.

Is there an 888 rep that looks at these forums do you know? I emailed support on Saturday but no response yet, live chat say they can't help as well.

Certainly one casino that wont be getting any more money from me!

Thanks

 

[KasinoKing]

Is there an 888 rep that looks at these forums do you know? I emailed support on Saturday but no response yet, live chat say they can't help as well.

Yes there is: Rachel888 - you can send her a PM by clicking: Outdated URL

You wont find a lot of love for 888 on this forum - they do have some strange business practises.
I wont say any more that that. In future try picking a casino from CM's accredited list.
Have you tried any other softwares before?
Which sort of games do you like to play?

Finally - welcome to the best gambling forum on the net!
KK

 

[ecopac]

Thanks KasinoKing!

I'll drop her a PM but to be honest I understand why there's not a lot of love for them here!

I like all different types of slots, my favourite casinos at the minute are Redbet and Jackpot Party, I'm also a fan of JackpotJoy - mainly because I enjoy the unique games they offer.

There are a couple out there I'd like to try, 3Dice being one but to be honest I struggle finding Mac compatible casinos, seems the options are a little limited for me

Thanks

 

[maxd]

FWIW see the recent Warning that I've posted regarding 888: 888 and related properties are ignoring player complaints.

 

[vinylweatherman]

FWIW see the recent Warning that I've posted regarding 888: 888 and related properties are ignoring player complaints.

It doesn't really go far enough. They claim the player used a "gaming strategy", not that they broke terms or "abused bonuses". Such casinos belong in the same place as Heroes casino went when they confiscated 30K from Westland Bowl because he used a "system".

 

[Balthazar]

It doesn't really go far enough. They claim the player used a "gaming strategy", not that they broke terms or "abused bonuses". Such casinos belong in the same place as Heroes casino went when they confiscated 30K from Westland Bowl because he used a "system".

Casinos confiscating money for "gaming strategy", "bonus abuse", "spirit of the bonus" and all that subjective crap should go straight to the rogue pit. If they feel like the player is not profitable for them, they should pay him and then ban him. Confiscating money for things that are subjective when no terms have been clearly broken should be criminal.

IMO, of course.

 

[maxd]

They claim the player used a "gaming strategy", not that they broke terms or "abused bonuses".

According to them and the Terms in place at the time a "gaming strategy" is a Terms violation. Of course a Term like that is hopelessly vague and basically ridiculous but if the player clicks on "Yes, I agree to these Terms" then who am I to say otherwise?

My point is that these casinos use players to fill their pockets and then ignore them when they have issues that need addressing. They consider themselves beyond the reach of anyone but themselves and, maybe, their licensing agent and they'll do whatever they please thank you very much. The players can FOAD if they don't like it. That sucks, hence the Warning.

Do they belong in the Pit? That's for Bryan to decide, he's the Pitmeister.

Finally I should point out that my issues with 888 et al do not include the rep. She is a pretty good soul from what I've gleaned in my dealings with her, she just happens to work for people for whom I would have rather less complementary things to say. C'est la vie I guess, we all have bills to pay.

 

[vinylweatherman]

According to them and the Terms in place at the time a "gaming strategy" is a Terms violation. Of course a Term like that is hopelessly vague and basically ridiculous but if the player clicks on "Yes, I agree to these Terms" then who am I to say otherwise?

My point is that these casinos use players to fill their pockets and then ignore them when they have issues that need addressing. They consider themselves beyond the reach of anyone but themselves and, maybe, their licensing agent and they'll do whatever they please thank you very much. The players can FOAD if they don't like it. That sucks, hence the Warning.

Do they belong in the Pit? That's for Bryan to decide, he's the Pitmeister.

I believe they do, Heroes also had similarly vague terms and conditions, along with many other casinos. If anything, 888 are worse, because they use aggressive spamming campaigns to net unwitting players, and much of this marketing is deceptive, and their CS are deliberately deceptive when players ask which casinos consititute "the group", which is a VERY important "need to know" for the player as many of the terms cover "sister casinos", and are only violated when the player plays also at unspecified sister casinos. 888 also pretended to want to come in from the cold, and wasted a great deal of your and Bryan's time. When Bryan announced that 888 and Reef Club were in "baptism by fire", it was an almost unanimous "what have YOU been smokin'" in response. It seems the doubters have been proved right.

They are indeed big, SO big that they seem to be able to influence the decisions of the GRA, which should really be an INDEPENDENT body when it comes to determining the merit of player complaints and regulatory policy. How on earth did the GRA come to consider the vague "bonus abuse" F U Clause as just cause to confiscate winnings

 

[maxd]

As to the GRA ... yeah, well, what I've heard is that in the restructuring they assumed that certain industry insiders were the right people to get advice from in terms of forming their new guidelines. Presumably they failed to take into account the personal interests those people may have had is seeing certain rules in place.

Re: 888 and a Pit listing, I'm sure Bryan would appreciate your input when the time comes to make that decision. Feel free to let him know that you are available for consultation.

Finally re: the "Trial By Fire". Everyone deserves a chance to better themselves, I believe they approached Bryan and asked for theirs. IMO giving them that chance was not a bad thing, regardless of what the doubters may have said or thought. YMMV. However, the manner in which they flagrantly pissed that chance away was a disgrace but entirely their own doing, as if they care.

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

FWIW see the recent Warning that I've posted regarding 888: 888 and related properties are ignoring player complaints.

Why do they use this term "gaming strategy"?


If they believe that someone is cheating why don't they just say the word "cheating"?


Isn't it the case that in any other game in the world,whether it be a sports match of some kind-football,basketball,or a computer game,or a game of chess etc you play to win-so you would come up with a strategy surely?

 

[maxd]

Isn't it the case that in any other game in the world ... you play to win-so you would come up with a strategy surely?

Maybe everywhere else but not at 888. Their full statement was:

Our review revealed that you are employing a gaming strategy in order to maximize the return from your game play, and the amount of bonuses you receive. This is against our Terms and Conditions ....

Apparently playing to win is the problem.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hypocrites. They employ a marketing strategy (spam) in order to maximise THEIR returns, and are not inconvenienced by EU legisltation or other guidelines that prohibit certain types of marketing strategies.

I believe it is not the Meister's pit they should fear, but the UK government who have recently woken up to smell the coffee, even though their motivation has been lost tax revenue, rather than the interests of players, that has been the consequence of online operators deciding to go down the whitelist route, rather than base themselves in the UK.

 

[Balthazar]

Why do they use this term "gaming strategy"?


If they believe that someone is cheating why don't they just say the word "cheating"?

Because gaming strategy is NOT cheating.

It can be anything from doubling your bet after a loss on roulette to simply changing your bet size on a slot.

Having a "gaming strategy" does NOT take away the house edge.

 

[maxd]

Because gaming strategy is NOT cheating.

The way it stands anything from Martingale to only betting on full-moon Tuesdays could be considered by the casino to be a "gaming strategy".

Since they are never required to account for their actions nor defend their accusations nor even explain what they mean when they say such things they have no need of definitions, reasonable or otherwise, for white-wash claims like "gaming strategy". It is whatever they decide it is whenever they feel like using it, no more and no less. Might as well call it Le Confiscation Excuse de Jour for all the difference it makes.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The way it stands anything from Martingale to only betting on full-moon Tuesdays could be considered by the casino to be a "gaming strategy".

Since they are never required to account for their actions nor defend their accusations nor even explain what they mean when they say such things they have no need of definitions, reasonable or otherwise, for white-wash claims like "gaming strategy". It is whatever they decide it is whenever they feel like using it, no more and no less. Might as well call it Le Confiscation Excuse de Jour for all the difference it makes.

Somehow, this made me think of a fancy restaurant's menu


Starters
Le Confiscation Excuse de Jour

 

[Balthazar]

The way it stands anything from Martingale to only betting on full-moon Tuesdays could be considered by the casino to be a "gaming strategy".

Since they are never required to account for their actions nor defend their accusations nor even explain what they mean when they say such things they have no need of definitions, reasonable or otherwise, for white-wash claims like "gaming strategy". It is whatever they decide it is whenever they feel like using it, no more and no less. Might as well call it Le Confiscation Excuse de Jour for all the difference it makes.

This is true and that's why I disagree with you when you said earlier in the thread:

Of course a Term like that is hopelessly vague and basically ridiculous but if the player clicks on "Yes, I agree to these Terms" then who am I to say otherwise?

Agreeing (and to be honest, most players do it blindly) to bad/unfair/ridiculous terms does not make them ok, nor even

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To me, terms like this are totally unfair and meet these 2 definitions:

the term causes significant imbalance in the parties rights and obligations, then
the term is contrary to the requirement of good faith.

 

[maxd]

Somehow, this made me think of a fancy restaurant's menu ....

Yes, and you begin by handing your wallet over. They'll take what they like and return it to you on your way out. Or pitch it and you out into the street without so much as a little kiss on the cheek. oke:

 

[vinylweatherman]

This is true and that's why I disagree with you when you said earlier in the thread:



Agreeing (and to be honest, most players do it blindly) to bad/unfair/ridiculous terms does not make them ok, nor even

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To me, terms like this are totally unfair and meet these 2 definitions:

the term causes significant imbalance in the parties rights and obligations, then
the term is contrary to the requirement of good faith.

This has been superceded by the Unfair Business Practices Act. The problem with internet based business is enforcement of such laws. Whilst they do still apply, it requires international cooperation to extend the reach to the offshore companies concerned. The only practical sanction the UK has is a ban on said company using UK based media for their marketing. It is a similar situation to the USA's problems in preventing online casinos based offshore taking bets from US players. The US can only enforce the laws when part of the activity takes place on US soil, hence the use of fund seizures from US based distribution accounts as the main weapon in the fight.

 

[maxd]

This is true and that's why I disagree with you when you said earlier in the thread ... Agreeing ... to bad/unfair/ridiculous terms does not make them ok, nor even legal.

Quite so. But the PAB process is not a court of law, it is an attempt to get the parties involved in a constructive dialogue that moves the issue towards resolution, if at all possible. When a player agrees to some bogus term and then later decides that was a bad idea there isn't much ground for asking the casino to be nice. As such the PAB process may not have much chance of improving the situation.

On the other hand throwing the casino in the Pit for BS Terms is always an option of course, as others have mentioned here and elsewhere. FWIW a Casinomeister Warning is often the beginning of that process.

 

[Balthazar]

This has been superceded by the Unfair Business Practices Act. The problem with internet based business is enforcement of such laws. Whilst they do still apply, it requires international cooperation to extend the reach to the offshore companies concerned. The only practical sanction the UK has is a ban on said company using UK based media for their marketing. It is a similar situation to the USA's problems in preventing online casinos based offshore taking bets from US players. The US can only enforce the laws when part of the activity takes place on US soil, hence the use of fund seizures from US based distribution accounts as the main weapon in the fight.

I understand all that and I wasn't suggesting taking legal actions against the casino, my point was agreeing to unfair terms doesn't, and shouldn't, make them OK.

Edit: But I also understand that Max can't do much with the PAB if those BS terms were already in place when the player started playing.

 

[maxd]

I understand all that and I wasn't suggesting taking legal actions against the casino, my point was agreeing to unfair terms doesn't, and shouldn't, make them OK.

It doesn't, but it may well hamstring the PAB process. Remember: two parties, dialogue. If the casino says "there's nothing to talk about here" and they have documentation to back that up, ie. Terms, then there's not much more to said about it, PAB-wise. If the Terms are truly BS then we have other actions available to us (Warnings, Pit listings, etc). That is precisely why the recent 888 PAB ended up as a Warning and whatever may follow that but the PAB was dead in the water.

My point is this: the anger and frustration here should be directed at the source of the problems, namely the casino and the casino group that runs them. It's not up to Casinomeister to fix them, it's up to you guys and the players you know to use your dollars as votes and show them what you think of their Terms and policies. That's all they're going to listen to, especially since these guys in particular are total professionals at not listening to anything else.