Question Question regarding play after self exclusion

In my case I'm a gambling addict and while I know it's me who has the problem the casino should have flagged me up. They say you have to match all 5 things( email, phone etc to be flagged) however when I sent my documents in they would definitely have realised then. So had I won I would not have received my winnings just my deposits back! The woman amwho spoke to me said I could take it further but more than likely get nothing back. I know I lost the money and had they been a site I wasn't excluded from I would have lost the money fairly however knowing I would never have received any winnings made me want my deposits back. Otherwise they are just stealing our money. Rightly or wrongly I use the fact I'm self excluded from sites as a safety net and when I can stop myself I'll join a few and they won't let me join because I'm self excluded from another of their sites. So the fact they let me join this one made me think I'd never joined any of their sites before.
 
Disappointed

Well, I've been reading your posts with a lot of interest. Thanks to all who have contributed, you all seem like a good bunch here :)

In the meantime, following my complaint escalation, I've received a disappointing response from their Managing Director. Disappointing both in the result (no voiding bets/no refund) and the fact they failed to really address the points I had raised. Instead their response says this "When you requested the self-exclusion of your account, we made no express commitment to prevent you from creating any new accounts.". It goes on to highlight various points in their communication to me following the self exclusion 4 years ago relating to their responsibilities or lack of.

They go on to say....

Whether deliberate or unintentional, as you entered varying details relating to your postal address our system cannot assume that the new account relates to the same person.

I have both won and lost many thousands of pounds over the years. I have never had cause to make a complaint ever before but I do wholly believe Virgin Games are not acting fairly in this case.

The casino say
".....to refund you any stakes lost or to pay out any winnings would be deemed a perverse incentive to gamble and to engage in risk free game play."

I say
It isn't gambling if a casino will not pay out winnings. By not refunding any stakes lost or to pay out any winnings I would deem this as a casino engaging in risk free game play.

I'll just add the options I've been presented with to take this further is either their nominated ADR (eCOGRA) or the ODR service. Any point in progressing with either of these do you think? Anyone had any experience of dealing with either of these? I know someone said the ADR do not deal with these kind of complaints. Any other thoughts?
 
Hi Winston

My issue was with heartbingo which is the same company as virgin. I think the issue with you is because it's a lot of money. They gave me half back which was only £84.50 however it's the principle. I must admit I kept harassing them by sending them emails and I also said that I would complain to the gambling commission. I had a slight change to my address which is why they didn't pick it up. So they accepted a bit of the responsibility. I would not let it go because we need help and tbh gamblers do move home. So relying on every detail to match is ridiculous. Why not use name and date of birth.
 
Hi Winston

My issue was with heartbingo which is the same company as virgin. I think the issue with you is because it's a lot of money. They gave me half back which was only £84.50 however it's the principle. I must admit I kept harassing them by sending them emails and I also said that I would complain to the gambling commission. I had a slight change to my address which is why they didn't pick it up. So they accepted a bit of the responsibility. I would not let it go because we need help and tbh gamblers do move home. So relying on every detail to match is ridiculous. Why not use name and date of birth.

I do think name and birthdate should be enough to lock an account until further inquires can be made of the customer in case they are not the same person.

Seems like casinos are capable of picking up self-excluded customers upon withdrawal, regardless of whether or not all five points match.

David Smith is the most common adult name in the UK, with just a little over 6,000. It is most probable that out of 30,000 people between 18 and 100, two will share the same birth date.

This produces a theorhetical chance of 1/5 that two David Smiths will share the same birth date.

Now ask yourself is every David Smith plays at a particular casino or group. And has every one of them self excluded?

The number of David Smiths that have self-excluded from a particular casino group cannot be very large at all. No one is having to check every customer registration in a old-school stack of perforated paper, and especially one not sorted in some fashion. This check would take seconds, and a pop-up to say contact support.

I'm not buying that they need five points to stop and check for self-exclusion upon registration. People have multiple email addresses, change their phone number and their address all the time.
 
Absolutely agree with you jasminebed

They say they would have paid had I won I don't believe that for a second. They told me had I sent my documents in they would have closed my account then. I sometimes wonder if they do this on purpose!! They like to blame the addict for opening the accounts which I know we have some responsibilty but so show they. The laws are there for a reason.
 
They say they would have paid had I won I don't believe that for a second.

Virgin games told me in writing they wouldn't have paid out on winnings for me. In my opinion this fact alone should mean the bets themselves should be voided. How can this even be called gambling if all you can do is lose or break even?

They do what they like and it would appear there's very little that can be done - and they know it.
 
I currently have a similar dispute with Paddy Power which may be of interest.

I'm self excluded from their sister site Betfair for more than 3 years now. I opened an account with Paddy Power a few days before they updated their self exclusion policy to automatically exclude you across both sites PP & Betfair regardless of which site you self excluded from. However they made no checks as to if I was on the Betfair self exclude list once they introduced this cross platform policy on 30/12/16, despite me using the same name, DOB, email address, security questions & answers, even virtually the same username.

I made a lot of hefty deposits with a lot of compulsive betting activity that should also have raised alarm bells with their RG team, but it didn't. I'd made a couple of withdrawals without needing to send them photo ID/statements as is usual too. Yet despite the big deposits and bets and no further withdrawals (clearly chasing to anyone's view), they didn't even send me the obligatory Responsible Gaming email warning or a phone call (as for example BET365 do). Instead they eventually contacted me 3 weeks in, but within minutes of my account hitting zero after losing deposits of almost £30k, to let me know I was now a VIP customer. At this point I spoke to my new VIP manager to tell him it was a sign to close my account as I was a compulsive gambler self excluded across many online sites. He phoned me back the next day to say they had discovered my self exclusion on PP Betfair and that my account would be closed permanently in any case.

I have emailed them stating the case requesting my deposits be returned as clearly they would not have honoured any winnings under their own policy and the UKGC directives. After many emails back & forth they are still refusing this stating that the new cross platform policy was only intended for new customers after that date of 30/12/16 and they had only been checking customers on a selective basis. I said that amounted to a failure in their duty of care to monitor self exclusions across their sites. I eventually emailed their CEO and he passed it on to another customer service rep, but after 5 days they have come back with the same stance. I've informed both UKGC & Malta Gaming Auth as IBAS (PP's selected dispute authority) will not deal with self exclusion disputes. From what I've read it seems I'm going to have to head to the courts. It's above the £10k small claims so I'll probably have to go the next step up.

I've read of other people in similar circumstances getting a refund after the steps I've taken, but maybe they were just lucky?

Either way I think the industry is behaving in a disgraceful manner on this issue. The UKGC seems to not want to wield any authority on self exclusion issues, instead passing the buck to the courts. If needs be I will go that route, but in the meantime I'd welcome anyone's advise who has actual knowledge on these sort of disputes. By that I mean, I appreciate everyone will have a moral view either way, but it's actual policy & legalities I'm interested in. :)
 
Wow I wonder what would have happened had you won... oh I know all of a sudden they would have found your self exclusion. It's like me I spent 10 hours straight gambling all the night and the next day got an email saying why don't you set limits. What they should have said was we think you need a break. These casinos do as the please and I think they love us complisive gamblers because we lose more often than not and also more than likely have a few exclusions. They say when they close your account we are doing it because of responsible gambling, for your own good but are happy to keep our money.
 
Wow I wonder what would have happened had you won... oh I know all of a sudden they would have found your self exclusion. It's like me I spent 10 hours straight gambling all the night and the next day got an email saying why don't you set limits. What they should have said was we think you need a break. These casinos do as the please and I think they love us complisive gamblers because we lose more often than not and also more than likely have a few exclusions. They say when they close your account we are doing it because of responsible gambling, for your own good but are happy to keep our money.

Well, quite. I was at some stage considerably up and I whilst I went through the usual sickening feeling of not withdrawing and losing it, I am now sure that in view of what the VIP rep told me I would have had those winnings confiscated. Now that is fine if they reciprocate and reverse deposits too. It seems a self excluded player who somehow opens an account without remit to fraud is literally giving the operator money with no chance of success. Their self exclusion practices are basically exploiting compulsive problem gamblers.
 
Well, quite. I was at some stage considerably up and I whilst I went through the usual sickening feeling of not withdrawing and losing it, I am now sure that in view of what the VIP rep told me I would have had those winnings confiscated. Now that is fine if they reciprocate and reverse deposits too. It seems a self excluded player who somehow opens an account without remit to fraud is literally giving the operator money with no chance of success. Their self exclusion practices are basically exploiting compulsive problem gamblers.

A few years ago a casino let me make 4 accounts which I didn't know were connected. When I found out and said I was going to make a complaint they said they would refund my deposits only if I signed a confidential agreement. They only did this because they knew they were in trouble! I know we have to take responsibility for our gambling however they should also take responsibility too and stop stealing from addicts. Because if they keep our money when we had no chance of winning then that's what it is in my opinion Because I've spoken to loads of people with gambling addictions and not one has ever been paid their winnings when they have had a self exclusion, just their deposits back.
 
A few years ago a casino let me make 4 accounts which I didn't know were connected. When I found out and said I was going to make a complaint they said they would refund my deposits only if I signed a confidential agreement. They only did this because they knew they were in trouble! I know we have to take responsibility for our gambling however they should also take responsibility too and stop stealing from addicts. Because if they keep our money when we had no chance of winning then that's what it is in my opinion Because I've spoken to loads of people with gambling addictions and not one has ever been paid their winnings when they have had a self exclusion, just their deposits back.

Congrats to you for getting your deposits back even if you had to sign an NDA. But I certainly haven't had my deposits back and despite an article in The Times highlighting the case and Paddy Power Betfair's lack of action for nearly a year in merging their customer self exclusion databases.
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This was in addition to a total lack of any process in verifying my source of funds nor any emails,texts or calls to check if I was happy with the large levels of betting. They literally contacted me for the first time once I'd lost everything just to give me some free bets and a VIP status, which we all know should be VIW with the W standing for Whale.

I've served them an LBA and from there it will be the county court.
 
With the new system, it is intended that a SE request from a player at any one site will mean they will be irrevocably excluded from all sites until the expiry of their initially chosen period, which will be at least 5 years. It is also intended that there be no means by which players can have "second thoughts" over a previous SE, so even if they change their minds 3 years later, they will still have to serve the 5 year exclusion.

As such, players should NOT Self Exclude merely as a means to get back at rude CS staff, or due to a tantrum over a bad session or poor promotions. SE means "I feel I am not in control, I need help".

I know this is slightly off topic, but it appears you are better informed than I, but would this new implementation of SE be retrospective? Basically would it only apply if you SE'd at a site post implementation? I ask because I have SE'd from a couple of sites, this was before I really know what it meant and what the implications were, and wonder if I can expect trouble whilst playing at the ones the currently use post switch?
 
I was self-excluded with Gamstop on the 04/02/2020. In the same day I received the promotions from Guts casino on my email address and as a gambling addicted I tried to play thinking will make more money. Since 28/02/2020 I deposited couple of hundreds and to be more specific on the 28/02/2020 I deposited £729 and I won around £3500. I tried to withdraw the money but I couldn’t. As an addicted I played more and lose it all. After a time on the website casino appears a mirror where it was saying that I have to send again all the necessary documents for my verification. On the 29/02/2020 I tried to log in again and I had the surprise to see my account was closed. I took the contact with them and said I was self-excluded without any explanations. I contacted the Gamstop and they confirmed me that I was self-excluded from 04/02/2020 and the casino needs to refund me all the deposits because is illegal what they’ve done.
The casino asked me for the Gamstop confirmation of my self-exclusion document for a refund of my deposits. Gamstop confirmed me that they sent all the necessary documents on the 2nd of March for the Casino which attest that I was self-excluded from 4th of February and the casino said they received the document on the 4th of March and that will take up to 72 hours for checking. Since that day they are saying that I need to wait for the checking but I consider that they have all the documents from Gamstop which attest I was self-excluded from 4th of February. What should I do forward to recover my deposits back which are £1109.40 .
I also want to mention that I didn't tried to open a new account and I played on the account which I had it since 2018 and I made that because the casino sent me free spins and special promotions. As a gambler addicted I couldn't stay without playing and one more time I lost my money, but this time I consider the casino didn't respect the UK gambling laws. Until now the casino didn't proved me anything and will never make it because all my details and informations provided to Gamstop are 100% correct.
The Guts casino said its their final decision about not refunding me any money back without any sustainable reasons about the accusations that they brought to me and that I need to contact SAR for more details. I emailed SAR but I didn't received any reply back. Also I want to say that a Guts casino support agent confirmed me this “ Eduard seems like your account is listed on Gamstop” and I have proof for this. And after that when I asked the agent from Safety Player department about this he said “ We apologise for any miscommunication that you may have been given by any agent “.
Thank you in advance. I'm a newbie in this and I don't want to quit until I will recover my rights.

**image snipped as contains names**
 
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Just put what happened and maybe anybody can help me with some advices.

Did your gamstop details Match exactly with those on Guts? Name address dob e mail etc ?

When you say you have e mailed SAR what do you mean ..have you requested a SAR?

You can try sending a neasage to @Guts on here.
 
Did your gamstop details Match exactly with those on Guts? Name address dob e mail etc ?

When you say you have e mailed SAR what do you mean ..have you requested a SAR?

You can try sending a neasage to @Guts on here.

I sent several email to Guts casino, they accused me I tried to avoid Gamstop rules and that my details are different, but my log in details and name l, birth date and all my personal details are exactly the same. I have the PDF document from Gamstop which confirms this. The Guts casino says that the details are different and that they can't give me the reasons and send me the problems and that I have to contact SAR department for that. And I contact the SAR department but nobody reply to me. First time they said that they didn't had my Gamstop exclusion confirmation, after couple of days one Guts support agent confirms me I was in Gamstop list and when I told this to Guts Safety Player department they said that it was a misunderstanding from the agent.
 
How long ago did you write to SAR department?

It sounds like they think they have proof your details are different.

As I said try and PM @Guts see if they will help
 
Yeah I will wait for the SAR department and will come back. I messaged Guts casino and they said is their final decision and is non-negotiable. This happened on 4th of March
 
How long ago did you write to SAR department?

It sounds like they think they have proof your details are different.

As I said try and PM @Guts see if they will help

Hello Borgie,

Sorry for the disturb,

As I mentioned yesterday I email SAR department from Guts casino and also to the support team on the 11/03/2020 and I didn’t received any reply back. I’m afraid they can’t prove anything about what they said because nothing from what they accused me is true.
I just contacted some gambling solicitors and I decided to make a claim in Court as I don’t have and nobody from Guts gives me any information regarding their decision.

Thanks a lot.
 
Hi all,

I have been playing various online casinos for approximately 20 years on and off winning and losing in that time with no issues.

I recently signed up to one where I deposited and played through a total of £1600 over a period of 3-4 hours which I lost, unfortuantely.
When I signed in the following day I found my account closed. It seems after talking on live chat that this was because I'd self excluded 4 years ago from their site.

I have subsequently discovered that had I won they would not have paid out. This means I was unknowingly gambling with only one of two outcomes possible - losing or breaking even. Are these therefore valid bets in the sense that by their own admission they wouldn't have paid out on any wins.

Aside from the fact they allowed play despite an SE. Do you think I'd have reasonable grounds to file a complaint with the Casino concerned and does anyone think this has any chance of a favourable outcome (i.e a refund of deposits)?

Anyone experienced similar. Any advice and or thoughts appreciated.
 

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