Question for the industry guys (RTP)

andym

Experienced Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Location
germany
Hi guys,
i have one question for you and would be happy if someone can answer that.
Lets assume there is only one online casino out there. This online casino licensed only one slot. This one slot has a theoretical RTP of 96%.
In that online casino only two players are playing the whole time.

Player1 made a really good win on the slot and get an RTP of 104%. Then Player1 stopped immeadiately playing.
Now whats the most likely real-RTP-outcome for Player2 who still continues playing with a very lot or unlimited spins:

1. Player2 will end up at 96% RTP
2. Player2 will end up at 88% RTP

Thanks
Andy
 
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Solution
You are talking about the concept of compensation if you're thinking Scenario 2 is the answer, online slots are random and are not compensated. therefore Player 1's results and Player 2's results are entirely independent of each other.

Eventually Player 1 and Player 2 will, given a sufficient number of spins, reach the T-RTP of the slot, but their results along the way do not influence the other at all.

The Reel Story

Experienced Member
Joined
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Location
United Kingdom
I dont believe that online casinos are rigged... BUT your last sentence is incorrect... throughout the entire history of gambling there have been many "shady" operators improving odds already in their practise. Be it running machines at illegal percentages, sharp practises with packs of cards and all the other swindles gaming operators have offered, your last sentence is valid in principle - but sadly not in reality
Indeed, but that was when there was little to no regulation, and therefore a minimal risk to the Casino that there would be any recourse. That is not the case these days in a highly regulated environment. Getting caught doing this would literally put them out of business.

Note that I say the highly regulated environment. Anything happening outside of regulated environments is the wild west and I can't speak to the legitimacy of that :)

In regulated environments, shady practices these days remain in the grey areas. Payoffs to avoid mistakes being raised that would cause higher contractual penalties. Taking casino managers to strip clubs to get preferential positioning for your games on the front page etc etc. All of that goes on :) This is all low risk stuff, so of course it happens.
 

Kroffe

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Indeed, but that was when there was little to no regulation, and therefore a minimal risk to the Casino that there would be any recourse. That is not the case these days in a highly regulated environment. Getting caught doing this would literally put them out of business.

Note that I say the highly regulated environment. Anything happening outside of regulated environments is the wild west and I can't speak to the legitimacy of that :)

In regulated environments, shady practices these days remain in the grey areas. Payoffs to avoid mistakes being raised that would cause higher contractual penalties. Taking casino managers to strip clubs to get preferential positioning for your games on the front page etc etc. All of that goes on :) This is all low risk stuff, so of course it happens.
I still think that saying that regulations keep people from doing shady shit just because the negatives might outweigh the benefits is a extremely blue eyed approach that puts waaaay too much trust in people.

People do things even tho the possible consequences outweigh the benefits all the time.
Hell when breaking most laws, the consequences outweigh the benefits, especially for small stuff like shoplifting, speeding, etc, and those are not exactly rare things.
Give a greedy person the chance to add 1% to the profits by doing something shady, and he will do it even tho he makes alot of money without adding that 1%.
 

The Reel Story

Experienced Member
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Location
United Kingdom
I still think that saying that regulations keep people from doing shady shit just because the negatives might outweigh the benefits is a extremely blue eyed approach that puts waaaay too much trust in people.

People do things even tho the possible consequences outweigh the benefits all the time.
Hell when breaking most laws, the consequences outweigh the benefits, especially for small stuff like shoplifting, speeding, etc, and those are not exactly rare things.
Give a greedy person the chance to add 1% to the profits by doing something shady, and he will do it even tho he makes alot of money without adding that 1%.
Well having worked in the industry, every company I worked with was very adherent to the regulations and took them very very seriously. There was plenty of shady shit, but it wasn't to do with the regulations :) So I speak from experience, not from a blue-eyed position hehe.
 

Kroffe

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Well having worked in the industry, every company I worked with was very adherent to the regulations and took them very very seriously. There was plenty of shady shit, but it wasn't to do with the regulations :) So I speak from experience, not from a blue-eyed position hehe.
Do they announce shady shit to everyone working in the industry in the casino business?
What makes you think you would have been among the people 'in the know' if shady things were going on?
 

Mouse75

Experienced Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Location
Southport
@Kroffe Makes some very valid points... anything untoward would only be known by a tiny percentage of employees.
People ARE greedy - hence the trend of RTP's lowering.
Anything to give them an edge business wise will be exploited, and indeed most of this may be legitimate - but it doesn't lead to good player experiences.
In a B&M arcade - one of a very successful empire making plenty of legitimate profits.... there were machines were the owners new a flat battery would been the machine was impossible to win on every single day before approx £70 wont through it (£10 JP) its no different. They did not need this very small edge.... but they took it.
We LIKE to believe it all above water and open and transparent.... we can't be sure though..... and plenty of people have no issues.... until that one big withdrawal doesn't get paid..

I'm not pointing fingers or being all doom and gloom - I like online gambling. But to make a sweeping statement that the big reputable boys are all paying fair all the time... just because.... I cant accept that.
 

The Reel Story

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United Kingdom
Do they announce shady shit to everyone working in the industry in the casino business?
What makes you think you would have been among the people 'in the know' if shady things were going on?
Like I said, there was plenty of Shady shit, but what we're talking about here is manipulating the games, against the regulation. Being that my business unit made the games and supplied them to the Casino's, I can pretty confidently say that the games were fully legit, as were each of the Casino's and the game providers involved with those games.

Shady shit involves brown bags of money, PI's sent to investigate players, taking people out for drinks/strippers/coke/hookers for preferential deals etc. It doesn't involve rigging the games. It's easier for these companies to screw over their own employees (reduce bonuses, dodgy dismissals etc) than it is to cheat the players.
 

Kroffe

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Like I said, there was plenty of Shady shit, but what we're talking about here is manipulating the games, against the regulation. Being that my business unit made the games and supplied them to the Casino's, I can pretty confidently say that the games were fully legit, as were each of the Casino's and the game providers involved with those games.

Shady shit involves brown bags of money, PI's sent to investigate players, taking people out for drinks/strippers/coke/hookers for preferential deals etc. It doesn't involve rigging the games. It's easier for these companies to screw over their own employees (reduce bonuses, dodgy dismissals etc) than it is to cheat the players.
Im not saying you cant vouch for the games you were directly involved in, that they were (atleast at the time) non shady.
But if you look at all the games on the market today, how many of them have you had any direct involvement in and can vouch for?

Rules, regulations, laws, consequences, punishments etc does not stop people from doing illegal stuff, it just means you are not supposed to do those things.
Rules couldnt stop me from eating cookies before dinner, but im supposed to believe it stops greedy people from doing illegal things with slots?
Funniest thing is the punishment when they get caught breaking the rules...they get a fine, which means they have to give back some of the money they earned by breaking the rules.
Doesnt sound all that harsh, eh?

Maybe ive missed all the people being sent to jail over breaking regulations.
;)
 

The Reel Story

Experienced Member
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Location
United Kingdom
Im not saying you cant vouch for the games you were directly involved in, that they were (atleast at the time) non shady.
But if you look at all the games on the market today, how many of them have you had any direct involvement in and can vouch for?

Rules, regulations, laws, consequences, punishments etc does not stop people from doing illegal stuff, it just means you are not supposed to do those things.
Rules couldnt stop me from eating cookies before dinner, but im supposed to believe it stops greedy people from doing illegal things with slots?
Funniest thing is the punishment when they get caught breaking the rules...they get a fine, which means they have to give back some of the money they earned by breaking the rules.
Doesnt sound all that harsh, eh?

Maybe ive missed all the people being sent to jail over breaking regulations.
;)
You're right, but I do know that the practicalities of anyone rigging a game, and managing to hide it (for precisely zero benefits, as they have to advertise the RTP and the game has to be reported against that RTP, so rigging the game would mean the reported RTP would be different from the accredited RTP which would be a big red flag), are just too difficult in a regulated market. The risk is going out of business (you lose your license, you're done), the benefit is... nothing. That's why it doesn't happen.

If you want to make more money, simply make a lower RTP game (which, btw, doesn't actually make you more money, because it stops being fun to play. Rigging a game would actually make you less money, because what yoiu want is a game that is addictive and fun and gets high throughput. That's why most games are 94-96%, cause that is the sweet spot for a game that feels fun but still makes good money)
 

Kroffe

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You're right, but I do know that the practicalities of anyone rigging a game, and managing to hide it (for precisely zero benefits, as they have to advertise the RTP and the game has to be reported against that RTP, so rigging the game would mean the reported RTP would be different from the accredited RTP which would be a big red flag), are just too difficult in a regulated market. The risk is going out of business (you lose your license, you're done), the benefit is... nothing. That's why it doesn't happen.

If you want to make more money, simply make a lower RTP game (which, btw, doesn't actually make you more money, because it stops being fun to play. Rigging a game would actually make you less money, because what yoiu want is a game that is addictive and fun and gets high throughput. That's why most games are 94-96%, cause that is the sweet spot for a game that feels fun but still makes good money)
Rtp being reported to who?
Id send some brown bags over his/her way too look the other way about any discrepancies, but then again im not a saint like all the people working in the industry so maybe thats why such a thing does not happen.
You say they are very careful about following regulations? Look at ukgc or spelinspektionen (swedish ukgc) count the fines being dealt out, they are all for breaking regulations.
And its not like oh that one casino got dealt one fine 3 years ago but nothing since, no. almost all groups have been dealt fines, some of them several, because they keep breaking regulations.

Losing a license, is that such a big deal?
How long does it take to get a new one and setup a new site and re-enter the same market again?
There have been sites kicked out from the Swedish market for breaking regulations, but most of them weasel their way back in under a new license/company.
 

mack341

Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2018
Location
south east england
I wonder how many software/programming glitches or maths faults are found during the independent checking phase before the games launch, on average during a year of such checks.

Slightly unrelated, but you never hear of the reverse happening, a fault where a £60 win was displayed but in fact you had won £40 million

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The conflict began after Mr Merlaku won £40million on a slot machine at Casino Bregenz, but was told his win was invalid due to a software error in the machine.

The casino then attempted to resolve the situation by offering him a free dinner. [as if that would ever go down well in the circumstances :laugh: ]

The casino's spokesman Martin Himmelbauer, 44, admitted the amount had been displayed in the machine but maintained that the machine was faulty and that Mr Merlaku had in fact only won £60.

'We wanted to apologise but he did not want to co-operate. We offered to pay out the cash that he did win, but he refused to accept it.

Usually these matters are sorted out with a meal for two but in this case the man was not prepared to settle for anything less than the full payment.'
 

Kroffe

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I wonder how many software/programming glitches or maths faults are found during the independent checking phase before the games launch, on average during a year of such checks.

Slightly unrelated, but you never hear of the reverse happening, a fault where a £60 win was displayed but in fact you had won £40 million

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


The conflict began after Mr Merlaku won £40million on a slot machine at Casino Bregenz, but was told his win was invalid due to a software error in the machine.

The casino then attempted to resolve the situation by offering him a free dinner. [as if that would ever go down well in the circumstances :laugh: ]

The casino's spokesman Martin Himmelbauer, 44, admitted the amount had been displayed in the machine but maintained that the machine was faulty and that Mr Merlaku had in fact only won £60.

'We wanted to apologise but he did not want to co-operate. We offered to pay out the cash that he did win, but he refused to accept it.

Usually these matters are sorted out with a meal for two but in this case the man was not prepared to settle for anything less than the full payment.'
Dont worry, testing is done over billions and billions of spins, so theres no way bugs and glitches can make it thru.
Well, it did happen that one time with every other btg release that bugs (some of them just visual, some actually gamebreaking) were found within hours of going live, and probably a couple 100k spins done at most.

Dont worry, all the players that spent money on Wild flower received 100% of their money back in case they had lost money on the slot since it was faulty.

yyg.gif
Well obviously they didnt, because that would have made sense.

Dont worry tho, i heard they fired the intern responsible for the bug.
;)
 

Mouse75

Experienced Member
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Southport
@Kroffe and both Donuts and Final Countdown had faults where front screen - i.e visual display to the player did not match the result generated. Easy to do these things deliberately and pass them off as "glitches"
 

Kroffe

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@Kroffe and both Donuts and Final Countdown had faults where front screen - i.e visual display to the player did not match the result generated. Easy to do these things deliberately and pass them off as "glitches"
I wonder how Wild flower passed the testing at all, because the bug was causing the enhanced feature to become a normal feature, i dont see how the slot can reach the correct rtp.
Seems a bit unlikely it was working during the billions of testing spins and suddenly stopped working when going live.

Maybe the testing is not as extensive&meticulous as we are told.
;)
 

Sasukdcf

Full Member
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Norwich
Loads of great points above and sadly as much as I respect the views of you all, and I have to respect the fact some of you are from the other side of the fence too with more knowledge of some of the areas we are addressing, I think there is a little bit of naivety here too....

Its illegal so doesn't happen.... seriously, EVERY DAY casinos are fined for not following the rules, why ?greed, and do they care... probably not as they undoubtedly make more from the rule breakage than the fine !!!

and you say Highly regulated..... By who the GC ?? Dont make me laugh, they are clueless and way behind the times.... every rule they bring in the casinos are way ahead of....

I had a very enlightening chat with you of the directors of Nmi Testing house a while back.....

There was a game where the progressive JP was stuck ( I did post about it on here i believe )

I had tried everything to get this resolved as I felt I had won it a few times but anyway.... having gone to GC the casino the provider and got nowhere, despite the game being changed ( the Progressive Jackpot level was changed from 100,000 top prize to £250,000 top prize however it wasnt retested.....

so I got on to the testing house who confimed they hadnt retested it but moreover confirmed that the progressive JP was not part of their testing anyway and that they were not responsible for testing this part of the game


the part that was broken and had been for 3 years yet no one would do anything about it .....

and why would they

because there is no recourse there is no risk........ how would anyone prove that stake manipulation was going on because people like me always come up against...

1) its against the law it cant be
2) not enough data
3) cant tell you anything its a secret !!




so the counter argument is

why wouldnt they.....

its a bit like the live games monopoloy and crazy time etc....

the maths suggests no rigged stuff needs to go on....

but does it... if i had to punt anywhere on the side of yes i would question the wheel on the adventures of wonderland by playtech who have been known to cheat before anyways and that sure as hell does some weird things at times....

do they need to cheat tho?? No

but if they can manipulate the wheel to make some extra money or prehaps give some margin to allow for a huge win to entice new players why not.... as long as the game performs to rtp no one will check!!!
 

Sasukdcf

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PABnorogue
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I wonder how Wild flower passed the testing at all, because the bug was causing the enhanced feature to become a normal feature, i dont see how the slot can reach the correct rtp.
Seems a bit unlikely it was working during the billions of testing spins and suddenly stopped working when going live.

Maybe the testing is not as extensive&meticulous as we are told.
;)
my experience is the the normal feature pays better than the enhanced lol !!! had around 20 enhanced and only 1 of them has hit over 100x
 

Sasukdcf

Full Member
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Norwich
I believe it is against the terms of all the major licenses to use compensated models in online slots. So it'd be illegal, the casino would lose their license and then go out of business. Not really worth the risk for pretty minimal benefit.

I believe the only reason it was acceptable to UK fruit machines is because they literally had to use the money people put in to pay out, so you didn't want the machine to be in a situation where it didn't have enough in it to pay. Not 100% sure on that though. Plus UK fruit machines are very old and probably prior to any major regulation.

And just going back to this (as you havent replied to my PM!!!)

thats a rose tinted outlook ^^

a casino breaks the rules and loses its licence .....

they pretty much have to send the boys round with a baseball bat to your grannies and shake her up and down

In reality a casino breaks the rules and gets a slap on the wrist and a fine....

and thats assuming they get caught, and how will they get caught if nobody checks and when the UKGC have no clue what they are supposed to be checking.....

and who tests the testing houses ?

and where do you go when you have an issue... Ibas.... and who funds them... the casinos !!!!

hmmmm
 

The Reel Story

Experienced Member
Joined
May 5, 2019
Location
United Kingdom
And just going back to this (as you havent replied to my PM!!!)

thats a rose tinted outlook ^^

a casino breaks the rules and loses its licence .....

they pretty much have to send the boys round with a baseball bat to your grannies and shake her up and down

In reality a casino breaks the rules and gets a slap on the wrist and a fine....

and thats assuming they get caught, and how will they get caught if nobody checks and when the UKGC have no clue what they are supposed to be checking.....

and who tests the testing houses ?

and where do you go when you have an issue... Ibas.... and who funds them... the casinos !!!!

hmmmm
I responded to your PM 10 minutes after you sent it.

I'm not going to convince any of you. You're dead set on the idea that it's all a con and nothing I say will change your minds.

Your entire argument is predicated on 'It's the gambling industry, everyone in it is crooked and so it's all shady', but that's just an incorrect view of the industry (and any industry). The reality is, the majority of people in the world are good and decent, the majority of businesses are good and decent. Where they are not, they will look to do shady stuff in low-risk ways. Ways that they can blame on an employee or that will just net them a fine. Rigging games is not simple, not easy to hide and carries massive risk. It's just not worth it. There are hundreds of people across multiple companies involved in game production. You would need a conspiracy across all of those companies and all of those people, most of whom just want to take a salary and go home to their families (and are not paid enough to keep massive industry secrets).

Then you have the people who have left the industry, and disgruntled employees (believe me, companies screw people over who work for them way more than they screw their customers. I saw an entire team of 40 people be let go off the back of a phone call cause it would save a million quid a year). That's the kind of bad shite companies do, not ridiculous, complicated, almost logistically impossible industry-wide conspiracies that have numerous layers of regulatory protection and complexity (checksummed game packages, independent testers, maths documents cross-checked with simulated play, audited and independently accredited RNG's all across multiple regulatory bodies).

As I said multiple times, there is plenty of shady stuff that goes on (you all seem to be glossing over that fact and saying that I'm rose tinting the whole industry). There is in every business, but game rigging is not one of them because it just isn't worth the effort. Shady stuff is normally limited to a few individuals who feel they can get away with it. When something becomes too big, it becomes too visible. Game production involves too many moving parts to make rigging invisible.
 

tazmart

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Mar 21, 2019
Location
Broadstairs
Game rigging seems pretty easy to me. Devs offer lower RTP games, casinos take them up wholesale, remove RTP info or leave the old higher info on there, then rake it in while we all pay the price. Very few people need to be involved or even 'in' on it, and in the meantime we're all getting turned over by the majority of casinos. Simple.
 

Kroffe

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Game rigging seems pretty easy to me. Devs offer lower RTP games, casinos take them up wholesale, remove RTP info or leave the old higher info on there, then rake it in while we all pay the price. Very few people need to be involved or even 'in' on it, and in the meantime we're all getting turned over by the majority of casinos. Simple.
But you forget there is one major thing making sure this can never happen.
Its against the rules.
And as we all know, rules are always followed, especially in businesses involving alot of money.

;)
 

bamberfishcake

Senior Member
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Essex
Casinos don't need to break any rules.

They can offer lower-paying versions of the same game, under everybody's noses, legally.

Stall large withdrawals and make requests for additional information, hoping you will chuck the towel in, legally.

Whether it's ethical or fair, is a completely different story.

You don't have to play at those casinos though, there are plenty out there who do it right and thousands of games at default RTP or released with one setting.
 

tazmart

Newbie member
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Mar 21, 2019
Location
Broadstairs
Maybe, but how can you know which casinos are playing fairly when so many aren't? The bad ones in this instance are giving all casinos a bad name so how can you trust anything any of them are telling you?

Now you can't change your payment details at more and more casinos if your balance is £1 or over, and there's nobody around in live chat to sort it out, so you're stuck with money you can't get out. Another outrageous scam being allowed by the Gambling Commission, who seem to have completely shifted their purpose and now seem to work completely for the casinos and against the players.

The difference in RTPs, though small on paper, is making a huge difference in how the games play in my experience, and as far as I can see none of them are being properly regulated because I've never seen the games play so consistently awful in all the years I've been playing online slots. I have records going back 5 years on my daily playing and there's been a really dramatic fall in winnings over the last 4 or 5 months, where before that it was pretty much consistent.

We can't believe the stated RTPs from any of them and can only know for sure by how they play, and that will get very costly in the current climate of scamming players for all their worth.
 

Guntis

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Location
United kingdom
Don't believe anyone in gambling whether they're game providers or licencing bodies -- most of them like it when some throw Euros on their table. Everything you as a player can see around you is a part of a marketing strategy. It's up to you, however, accept it or not.

But regarding this RTP lowering, they forgot the golden rule a happy player = happy casino! The games must pay to keep players happy and keep them coming back, and therefore, earn casinos money in the long run. This is how gambling should work plain and simple.

If players do not win, they won't stay in one place for long, they'll leave and look for other opportunities.
 

LoopsterAU

Experienced Member
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Melbourne, Australia
Been "VIP" at way too many casino's and here is my opinion.

Slots are random as stated here until you get flagged as "VIP" due to high depositing, big bets etc because at that point you become a risk of possibly hitting a really high x at a large stake size and cleaning out the casino.

Once "VIP" your experience is a lot more controlled by the casino depending on your recent deposits, taking a break from depositing etc.

If you are showing signs of depositing every day and constantly chasing you will keep losing until you snap out of that pattern and take a break.

Once you have taken a break they will weigh up how much value you are to the casino and set a win cap on the account to let you keep winning to in order to be able to cash out and start the cycle all over again of depositing.

I like to think they are random like most people and agree they are for a very casual player (this is the part that's tested) however once big dollar signs speak corruption kicks in and it is controlled. Seen way too many coincidences where when i'm chasing I cant hit anything on any provider in any game and then after taking a break go on massive streaks where no matter what game I touch I just simply cannot lose to believe it's 100% random.
 

vnk207

Full Member
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Dec 25, 2012
Location
Nederland
Well, its maybe not the right topic to reply this on, but i read again RTP is really random. Believe me, it should be totally random but i experienced many times the opposite, i want to explain with a example:


Played many times Playngo Superflip 20 lines slot. For example i have 7€, put it on autoplay on 20 lines 0,01 bets. Ive seen many times 30 dead spins. Then i have 1€ left. Then i change to 2 lines so 0,02 bet. So my changes to win i decrease with 90% if i say that right. Well before you know it you hit your first points or bonus game. That is why i almost play this game with more than 1€ balance anymore. Ofcourse it give also on 20 lines but my example ive seen many times so for unbelievers like me, you know you get sewn by playing slots. Definitely on certain providers. Just sayin


I go now to the waterside to through out my fishing lures, thats healthier for me than gambing. :)

have a nice day
 
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