Question about "professional play"

RBD

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Location
Southern California
Every set of terms and conditions that I look at keeps saying that the casino doesn't allow professional players and that their site is for "entertainment purposes" only. However, they don't define what they deem to be professional play or even what constitutes entertainment use. Does anybody know the guidlines they use to determine the difference between entertainment and profession?
 

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Location
UK
Every set of terms and conditions that I look at keeps saying that the casino doesn't allow professional players and that their site is for "entertainment purposes" only. However, they don't define what they deem to be professional play or even what constitutes entertainment use. Does anybody know the guidlines they use to determine the difference between entertainment and profession?

This is a term used frequently in the rules to combat collusion or any arrangement in place by the player to deceive, mislead or defraud the casino. Usually this type of player will be making his living off the back of this practice.

Mike
 

RBD

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Location
Southern California
So how does the casino determine that you are or are not one of these players? Is it the amount of time or the frequency of play, the frequency or amount of withdrawal deposits, or is it something else? I'm only curious because the loose wording and the fact that I'm putting up real money make me a bit uneasy. I don't want to spend a bunch of time on a casino only to be deemed "professional" and have my winnings voided. Or has that even happened before?
 

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Location
UK
So how does the casino determine that you are or are not one of these players? Is it the amount of time or the frequency of play, the frequency or amount of withdrawal deposits, or is it something else? I'm only curious because the loose wording and the fact that I'm putting up real money make me a bit uneasy. I don't want to spend a bunch of time on a casino only to be deemed "professional" and have my winnings voided. Or has that even happened before?

Legitimate players have nothing to fear regarding the use of this terminology.
Professional play is not a euphemism for successful play. So the amount of time you play or the amount of deposits and withdrawls you make is irrelevent.

Professional play is when underhand tactics are used to gain a financial advantage. These may include the use of third party software to intercept games, collusion where several players are conspiring against the casino to gain an advantage and it also covers bonus abuse (again where the player is trying to exploit the casinos T&C's to gain an advantage, usually by opening multiple accounts.

The casino has many ways of detecting these kind of activities, but in order for a reputable casino to lock an account for professional play they must have a strong case. I have not read many complaints on this forum regarding this issue, apart from what a casino deems bonus abuse.

It has been known for a rogue casino to use the term professional play to withhold winnings, however as long as you stick to the accredited list on here you shouldn't be having any problems.

Mike
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
This is a term used frequently in the rules to combat collusion or any arrangement in place by the player to deceive, mislead or defraud the casino. Usually this type of player will be making his living off the back of this practice.

Mike

There's a difference between defrauding the casino and a "normal" professional player.

By normal, I mean the players that make a living by gambling without cheating. For example, if you know what you're doing and play smart, you could easily make a living off of playing blackjack. Many players do.

Making a living off of slots, well, that's another story...lol

IMO, it would be near impossible to tell if a player is a professional or not. What guidelines would they go by? How could they prove it?

I've noticed this at pretty much all the casinos, too, but I think this could be used as a FU clause if they don't want to pay out a huge win.

For instance,

You couldn't tell if a player was a professional or not by their deposit sizes.

A recreational player could be an expert at blackjack, but yet not make their living off of it.

A stay at home mom could play 5+ hours a day, every day of the year, and still not be a professional player.

etc...

Professional play is when underhand tactics are used to gain a financial advantage. These may include the use of third party software to intercept games, collusion where several players are conspiring against the casino to gain an advantage and it also covers bonus abuse (again where the player is trying to exploit the casinos T&C's to gain an advantage, usually by opening multiple accounts.


:what:

So all professional gamblers are cheats?

:rolleyes:

This term shouldn't even be there. If you're using a bot, have multiple accounts or using whatever other method to cheat the casino, you're breaking the T&C that are already in place.
 

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Location
UK
:what:

So all professional gamblers are cheats?

:rolleyes:

That is not the context in which the rules are referring to regarding professional play. Professional play means that the player is deliberatly setting out to gain a financial advantage over the casino by not adhering to the T&C's.

Examples:

"The recent post office robbery was a professional job" now that doesn't mean all people who work in post offices are cheats. Or "His art forgeries were very professional" now that doesn't mean he would be an artist for a living does it.

The professional player is merely taking on the role of the professional by trickery and deceit.

Mike
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
That is not the context in which the rules are referring to regarding professional play. Professional play means that the player is deliberatly setting out to gain a financial advantage over the casino by not adhering to the T&C's.

Examples:

"The recent post office robbery was a professional job" now that doesn't mean all people who work in post offices are cheats. Or "His art forgeries were very professional" now that doesn't mean he would be an artist for a living does it.

The professional player is merely taking on the role of the professional by trickery and deceit.

Mike

ok, I see where you're coming from, now.

Maybe they should change the term from "professional players" to "grifters." :D It makes more sense and isn't ambiguous.

Noun 1. grifter - a person who swindles you by means of deception or fraud

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I still stand behind my statement that this could be used as a FU clause. There's been a couple of cases (or more, I dunno) here at CM where players have been accused of cheating; but both players had proof that they weren't.

The most recent case involved Westland Bowl and Heroes Casino. They claimed that WB used some sort of bot to play BJ, when in fact he didn't. The casino simply wouldn't, or couldn't, pay him the money that was owed, and the software provider had to step up to the plate and pay him.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Casinos can and do ban winning players. As long as any wins are paid prior to the account closure, they are within their rights. I don't think any player has much recourse against such account closures.

Professional implies that an activity is for profit. With the exception of skill based games like poker and rummy, the house has an edge, which cannot be beat long term.

If a player finds themselves banned (and I am not referring to confiscation of winnings), just move on. Another casino will be pleased to have you as a customer.
 

4 of a kind

Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Location
New York
Casinos can and do ban winning players. As long as any wins are paid prior to the account closure, they are within their rights. I don't think any player has much recourse against such account closures

That's because as I stated several times in several posts, if your willing to play online your willing to except: Low End, High Risk, Third World Online Casinos and Rules.

Regardless of how many different ways the T&C's could be interpreted, when deciding to gamble and risk any money online; the gambler is at the mercy of how they (online casino) decide to interpret the rules with their decision being final and no recourse for the player.

Most online players don't even realize the actual level of risk they're playing at online. I was playing at a rogue casino for several years and never knew it. I was always paid when I cashed out never realizing it was just because my cashouts were petty when compared to my loses. If I ever hit the big one of course I never would have received it.

Although by now I'm certain the serious online gambler belongs to sites like casinomeister and are aware of what actually goes on. Yet, I also wonder how many players are not and don't become members of a casinomeister site till they can't get paid. My guess would be a large amount still are not advised has it seems the rogue's are still striving strong.

I always felt playing online came with a doubled edged sword. One, to be lucky enough to win, Two, to be lucky enough to eventually get your winnings.
 

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Location
UK
That's because as I stated several times in several posts, if your willing to play online your willing to except: Low End, High Risk, Third World Online Casinos and Rules.

Regardless of how many different ways the T&C's could be interpreted, when deciding to gamble and risk any money online; the gambler is at the mercy of how they (online casino) decide to interpret the rules with their decision being final and no recourse for the player.

Most online players don't even realize the actual level of risk they're playing at online. I was playing at a rogue casino for several years and never knew it. I was always paid when I cashed out never realizing it was just because my cashouts were petty when compared to my loses. If I ever hit the big one of course I never would have received it.

Although by now I'm certain the serious online gambler belongs to sites like casinomeister and are aware of what actually goes on. Yet, I also wonder how many players are not and don't become members of a casinomeister site till they can't get paid. My guess would be a large amount still are not advised has it seems the rogue's are still striving strong.

I always felt playing online came with a doubled edged sword. One, to be lucky enough to win, Two, to be lucky enough to eventually get your winnings.

The terms and conditions have become much clearer over the years. They are also much less open to interpretation. Perhaps you would prefer all casinos to involve more legal people to construct ever more complex legal documents.
Then you would end up with 10 pages of text to read with lots of legal quotes in Latin, with absolutely nothing left open to interpretation. So be careful what you wish for.

The T&C's are much easier to understand, I really can't see what your beef is. If you compare the terms to any other financial document the jargon is much easier to comprehend and definitely fit for public consumption.

Most of the terms are just plain common sense, if you come across T&C's which you do not agree with, then either ask for written clarification or shop elsewhere. Preferably at one of the elite casinos that will not screw you over.

Mike
 
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