Put the MG RNG to the test!

kimss

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Well, some of us in here are software developers and we sure as hell have people with math skills. Why do we not do the following:

We recreate Thunderstruck and put it to the test with a real RNG!

Zoozie could easily give us a random alrorythm, we already have the reels and we know what the win combinations are. We do not need to do anything, since the reels are already 95%. This would be perfect, and so easy for us. All we need is just a playable environment with a bankroll and different denominations.

Then we can start playing using high and low wagers and see if it plays out the same as usual! If that happends - I'll shut up for life regarding this topic. Do we still loose as much, do we get the same bad spells? I would love to see this in action, heck maby I'll even pay some flash dude to do this for my own personal entertainment!

When I think of it I could most likely create this game in PHP and MySQL which is my field, however I would think a flash version would be more "dynamical".

What about this idea? That would really stop all our mouthes when I think of it, mystery solved! If we chip in together here, I guess we spend a few hours each on the project - it sure as hell beats complaining in here for next 50 years!

Anyone?
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
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Well, some of us in here are software developers and we sure as hell have people with math skills. Why do we not do the following:

We recreate Thunderstruck and put it to the test with a real RNG!

Zoozie could easily give us a random alrorythm, we already have the reels and we know what the win combinations are. We do not need to do anything, since the reels are already 95%. This would be perfect, and so easy for us. All we need is just a playable environment with a bankroll and different denominations.

Then we can start playing using high and low wagers and see if it plays out the same as usual! If that happends - I'll shut up for life regarding this topic. Do we still loose as much, do we get the same bad spells? I would love to see this in action, heck maby I'll even pay some flash dude to do this for my own personal entertainment!

When I think of it I could most likely create this game in PHP and MySQL which is my field, however I would think a flash version would be more "dynamical".

What about this idea? That would really stop all our mouthes when I think of it, mystery solved! If we chip in together here, I guess we spend a few hours each on the project - it sure as hell beats complaining in here for next 50 years!

Anyone?

It wouldn't be a good test.

Why? Hardware vs. Pseudo RNG.
 

kimss

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It wouldn't be a good test. Why? Hardware vs. Pseudo RNG.
I do not agree, I am sure Zoozie or KasinoKing can give us a more than good enough mathematical equation combining with pseudo-rng which will render a more than good enough RNG for this experiment.

I could hook up a webcam outside my office which streams in realtime, we could do a SHA1 checksum of the image and use that as seed? How complicated do we need this?

If Zoozie can verify the machine being random with his own slot analyzer, surely the same RNG must be good enough for a test like this - if not you are saying pretty many things at once!

A pseudo-rng, also, works just aswell unless you know what kind of rng it is and therefore have knowledge of how to predict the sequences coming out, something we are not interested in doing in this experiment. The point here is for us gambling addicts wagering at a machine that is truly random, will we still loose, will we still win? I do not know, I for one sure would love to try this!
 

oyw7862

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thanks KK, the reel postion map.
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Sorry to say it, but we need more information on RNG.

the most important is to know which method is used to eliminate "bias sequence".
 

kimss

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Sorry to say it, but we need more information on RNG.

the most important is to know which method is used to eliminate "bias sequence".
Well, I call for KK and Zoozie to enlighten us with a good enough random equation for this experiment.

If it's down to a seed of some sort being the magic trick, I am pretty sure we could hook up a radio somewhere and let the static be used as a seed though the mic into a soundcard. (You know the noice, just like on the TV where there are no channels).

To be honest, we could even precalculate a million random numbers, aslong as the players in the experiment don't know them. The point here is just let us play in a controlled environment where we know it's random.

However I have a feeling most operating systems today are capable of creating a good enough RNG engine for this purpose.
 

Pocketdiggers77

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nvm, it's a pay service for anything they don't have listed for 'free...', ie: nothing that could be used here.

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"The randomness comes from atmospheric noise, which for many purposes is better than the pseudo-random number algorithms typically used in computer programs."

Anyone care to explain how you can get randomness from atmospheric noise?
 
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winbig

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"The randomness comes from atmospheric noise, which for many purposes is better than the pseudo-random number algorithms typically used in computer programs."

Anyone care to explain how you can get randomness from atmospheric noise?

Sure:

However, there are many other ways to get true randomness into your computer. A really good physical phenomenon to use is a radioactive source. The points in time at which a radioactive source decays are completely unpredictable, and they can quite easily be detected and fed into a computer, avoiding any buffering mechanisms in the operating system. The HotBits service at Fourmilab in Switzerland is an excellent example of a random number generator that uses this technique. Another suitable physical phenomenon is atmospheric noise, which is quite easy to pick up with a normal radio. This is the approach used by RANDOM.ORG. You could also use background noise from an office or laboratory, but you'll have to watch out for patterns. The fan from your computer might contribute to the background noise, and since the fan is a rotating device, chances are the noise it produces won't be as random as atmospheric noise.
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btw, they've been around since 1997, so I think they know what they're doing.

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Interestingly enough:

Chapter 0: How It All Began... (1997)

RANDOM.ORG started during the summer of 1997 when I was working for a startup that was building an engine for online gambling. It was a small operation: just four guys constructing a prototype with the intention of raising money for further development. The engine was designed such that there was a core of functionality for which various game modules could be written. We implemented a prototype of the engine itself and a series of game modules that allowed you to play lottery, blackjack and slot machines in your web browser.
 

Pocketdiggers77

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I should have been more specific. How do you get a random number TO your computer from atmospheric noise. Actually, never mind on that last question. I did a little research and this is way over my head. I did find this interesting

A physical random number generator can be based on an essentially random atomic or subatomic physical phenomenon whose unpredictability can be traced to the laws of quantum mechanics. An example of this are the Atari 8-bit computers, which used electronic noise from an analog circuit to generate true random numbers.

ANyone have an Atari 8-bit computer laying around? :D
 

DiamondGeezer

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That sounds like the Atari ST. A real beast in it's day and made in huge numbers. Good graphics too.

This sounds like an interesting project - good luck with it.
 

Slotster!

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Hey, I'm sure there's enough slotjunkies on here to submit real statistics for real money over a given period of time.

You could even do an experiment where, say, ten people sign up to do ten hours solidly on autoplay at 9c denomination - then compare and contrast the statistics...

Or maybe something a bit more scientific/logical?
 

shadow123

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Just out of interest, the RNG used in the first proper electronic real fruit machines (pre processor controlled) was usually derived from white noise
which was used to clock a shift register,the output of which provided the random number. This was used to time the solonoids which stopped the reels
ans provided the nudge and hold chances.Was a bit crude but it did the job.
 

tim5ny

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thx for the help guys......... *run like a mother-*snip* * cuz these math guys have no idea either!
 
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footdr

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I READ THAT THERE IS NO "TRUE RTG"........AND.....

Also, after playing online for over 5 years at Micro. casinos I can attest from personal experience that it is not a true RTG in the meaning that we players think. The outcome is not truly random if the outcome changes based upon the amount you bet per line. I guarantee, though not scientifically but basedon experience, that the outcome does differ on the amount you bet! I would bet me life on this!.

Also, there are too many noticible variables such as some games on a given session pay more when you bet only 8 lines not 9 or 24 lines not 25 yet you hit a combination that would have been a winner at either line bet. (but probably wouldnt have got the payout at 9 lines)

I have no proof but only thousands of bets to come to this conclusion.

I did read however on a Mathematics website that there is no "true" RNG as it does not exist.
 

winbig

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Also, after playing online for over 5 years at Micro. casinos I can attest from personal experience that it is not a true RTG in the meaning that we players think. The outcome is not truly random if the outcome changes based upon the amount you bet per line. I guarantee, though not scientifically but basedon experience, that the outcome does differ on the amount you bet! I would bet me life on this!.
It's definitely doable.

Take Mega Moolah for instance. Of course you can't hit the 'big one' unless you're betting the maximum amount....

I think we'd all love to see proof that backs up these theories..:)

The problem is, IMO you'd need millions of spins to come to any concrete conclusion, not thousands.
 

footdr

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YOU HAVE TO CONCEED THAT IT DOES MATTER HOW MUCH

YOU ARE BETTING PER LINE, RIGHT? Of coarse to win a progressive you have to wager max. But I can guarantee you will have more winning payouts betting less than the max when playing progressives, for the very reason you state WINBIG.

Per spin, you will hit a payout less on progressives when betting max.

Some games ALWAYS pay more frequently if you bet less lines than the max, Cashapillar is one such game as is Gladiator and a few others that are 40 line slots. You have to play around with your bets for a bit to determine what combo of lines and bet per line are paying off. So, if it was truly random, and you are playing 9 line on a 9 line slot should it matter how much you are betting per line? I say no if truly, purely random. Yet I guarantee you have a higher chance of hitting any payout betting less than the max per line.
\
What do you think, anyone!
 

RobWin

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YOU ARE BETTING PER LINE, RIGHT? Of coarse to win a progressive you have to wager max. But I can guarantee you will have more winning payouts betting less than the max when playing progressives, for the very reason you state WINBIG.

Per spin, you will hit a payout less on progressives when betting max.

Some games ALWAYS pay more frequently if you bet less lines than the max, Cashapillar is one such game as is Gladiator and a few others that are 40 line slots. You have to play around with your bets for a bit to determine what combo of lines and bet per line are paying off. So, if it was truly random, and you are playing 9 line on a 9 line slot should it matter how much you are betting per line? I say no if truly, purely random. Yet I guarantee you have a higher chance of hitting any payout betting less than the max per line.
\
What do you think, anyone!
I totally agree footdr, but you might as well be pissing in the wind to try and prove that theory and then you will also have several here that will come along and swear on their life that this software is truly, purely random and not weighted...

The other thing I would like to know is who exactly tests the software providers RNG's, who are these people and what type of tests do they run on the RNG's that MG and the other software providers use in their programs...
 

kimss

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I totally agree footdr, but you might as well be pissing in the wind to try and prove that theory and then you will also have several here that will come along and swear on their life that this software is truly, purely random and not weighted...

The other thing I would like to know is who exactly tests the software providers RNG's, who are these people and what type of tests do they run on the RNG's that MG and the other software providers use in their programs...
Well here is my theory:
Slots are not random, and were never supposedly that either from the mechanical point of view. There are weighted rules and balancing going on all the time to meet expected payouts. Each and every purchaser of the gaming system want different payouts, and are able to do this. Some have different regulations, and need to do this.

So - here comes the internet, and people can sit down and realy analyze. The perception is that it's random, so let's make it look like it's damn close!

I belive this is what they are doing, they make it close, however it is not more random than a vegas slot!

Did a tourney last nite on 3Dice, and was amazed playing that blue butterfly thingie. Play 1 line only and keep looking at all the wins you are "missing"... Up to 25 line and you suddenly get lots of naked spins, down to 1 line again and wins all the time. This is just a little example on how the system balances out what your expected wins would be. Also when you have close wins, like 4 out of 5 - I belive many systems are buildt to "randomly" give you theese aswell, to make you want to play a little harder.

A random environment is easier to win in given you are allowed to +/- the bet sizes, only at a fixed betsize will the house have it's edge.

It's like the old roulette trick, tripple your bet and you will always double, however you reach the house limit in a while. Well, at a lower level the same works in the slots, that is, it doesn't work at the slots since some balancing scheme is in affect and wont allow this kind of betting!

We all know it, play one line play 9 lines, bet 0.09 jump to 9 - it's 4 different games right there.

Doing thunderstruck in my own served random numbers would be a great exercise for us all, but only doing +/- on the betting can you skew the house edge, and only of the numbers are truly random and not streaky random or balanced.

Anyways, the more I testplay at real random slots - the more I know on how right I truly am of my above statements!

In the end, we should't complain? It's entertainment machines, atleast that is what the makers are changing their name to in IGT, we do get out expected payout. We got what we paid for! In online terms, that should mean 92-96%

Coffetime!
 

winbig

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YOU ARE BETTING PER LINE, RIGHT? Of coarse to win a progressive you have to wager max. But I can guarantee you will have more winning payouts betting less than the max when playing progressives, for the very reason you state WINBIG.

Did you take the time to see the slot I was referring to? Mega Moolah has different progressives, and each goes by how much you are betting. IE: Major, Mini, etc. If you're betting .50 a spin, you have no chance of winning the Mega progressive, but I'm sure you have one hell of a chance of hitting the mini. :rolleyes:
 

KasinoKing

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Did you take the time to see the slot I was referring to? Mega Moolah has different progressives, and each goes by how much you are betting. IE: Major, Mini, etc. If you're betting .50 a spin, you have no chance of winning the Mega progressive, but I'm sure you have one hell of a chance of hitting the mini. :rolleyes:
You are stating that as if it is an actual fact (rather than just your opinion), but I think you're wrong.

As I understand it (according to MG's rules) you have an equal chance (no matter how tiny) of hitting any of the 4 jackpots regardless of how much you are betting.
However triggering the bonus wheel in the first place most definitely IS based on your bets.
i.e. you will get the bonus wheel 10 times more often at $5.00 per spin than at $0.50.

With the increased lesser jackpots, I just wish I could get the wheel once! :(
 

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