Providers moving the goal posts

Guntis

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Location
United kingdom
I have been involved in the industry for 12 years and these tinfoil threads never stop to pop up. No offense but some poster here HAVE A TINFOIL HAT...and nothing I or others will say will convince them otherwise.

Can also say, since I’m a little bit older than most, that all conspieracy theories has gone ballistic since the birth of internet. Now there are so many tinfoils you can meat online that keep the ideas alive. It is to some extent actially frightening...

When I grew up it was wostly about if Elvis was really dead or not :p

:laugh: ...:thumbsup:
 

Harry_BKK

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Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Location
Balcony
I get your complaints and opinions but you are all forgetting a few important details.

Everyone (might be exaggerated) is calling for bigger win potential, higher volatility etc. The soon we read 1,000x bet as max win potential for a slot we are not bothered. We want 10Kx, 20Kx and more.

- Generally, a win of 1,000x bet happens statistically about 1:1million spins, often much rarer
- 5,000x on BOD is 1:37.5 million spins

Now, think of e.g. DoA2 or Jammin Jars. If you want the +10,000x bet wins to happen at a reasonable rate, you need to reduce in all other areas, which means you will have many more players getting a rough deal.


What I think happened to games like 300 Shields, Montezuma and Raging Rhino is that to go with the general trend they adjusted the math profile towards more super mega and hyper wins (which are still very rare), which then takes RTP away from the usual gameplay.


The next factor is the amount of players. The numbers have literally exploded in the last 2-3 years. I posted just the other day the results for Aspire, over 300,000 new depositors Q1 - Q3 / 2019 and that is just one group.

Just my 2 cents. I'll let you carry on with the tinfoil hatting! :D
 
Last edited:

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
So are the none tinfoilers stating categorically that no skullduggery whatsoever occurs at anytime?
 

Harry_BKK

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Location
Balcony
So are the none tinfoilers stating categorically that no skullduggery whatsoever occurs at anytime?

Nope, we are playing games of chance with the probability to hit a +10K x win lower than hitting the lottery! For many slots, even +1,000 x wins are less often!

I used to have a "Remarkable Day at VS" every few months, the last one was nearly 2 years ago! :oops:
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
Strange I used to have remarkable days playing online poker for the first 18 months, then miraculously I couldn’t win for love nor money. Playing the same tournaments, same amount of runners etc.

Oh yeah but it did come out eventually that everything wasn’t quite as it should have been. After people defending it to the hilt. Only saying.
 

deanparkr

Full Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Location
UK
Strange I used to have remarkable days playing online poker for the first 18 months, then miraculously I couldn’t win for love nor money. Playing the same tournaments, same amount of runners etc.

Oh yeah but it did come out eventually that everything wasn’t quite as it should have been. After people defending it to the hilt. Only saying.

Interesting - what came out that wasnt quite right?
 

interlog

Ueber Meister
webmeister
PABnonaccred
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Location
London
I get your complaints and opinions but you are all forgetting a few important details.

Everyone (might be exaggerated) is calling for bigger win potential, higher volatility etc. The soon we read 1,000x bet as max win potential for a slot we are not bothered. We want 10Kx, 20Kx and more.

- Generally, a win of 1,000x bet happens statistically about 1:1million spins, often much rarer
- 5,000x on BOD is 1:37.5 million spins

Now, think of e.g. DoA2 or Jammin Jars. If you want the +10,000x bet wins to happen at a reasonable rate, you need to reduce in all other areas, which means you will have many more players getting a rough deal.


What I think happened to games like 300 Shields, Montezuma and Raging Rhino is that to go with the general trend they adjusted the math profile towards more super mega and hyper wins (which are still very rare), which then takes RTP away from the usual gameplay.


The next factor is the amount of players. The numbers have literally exploded in the last 2-3 years. I posted just the other day the results for Aspire, over 300,000 new depositors Q1 - Q3 / 2019 and that is just one group.

Just my 2 cents. I'll let you carry on with the tinfoil hatting! :D

Well, if they did adjust the math profile on the likes of 300 shields, Montezuma and Raging Rhino, wouldn't it be nice if they told their players? It does change the game and some players may not want to play high variance games and are more than happy to play the likes of Steamtower that is so much less volatile.
 

Kroffe

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
Well, if they did adjust the math profile on the likes of 300 shields, Montezuma and Raging Rhino, wouldn't it be nice if they told their players? It does change the game and some players may not want to play high variance games and are more than happy to play the likes of Steamtower that is so much less volatile.

I like the little box with info 4theplayer include in their slots.
Should be mandatory for all developers imo.
And like you say, if anything changes, a popup should tell you what has changed, and why.

They should make an industry-standard volatility-meter, and it should be mandatory for casinos to show that+rtp% on their website.
 

Harry_BKK

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Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Location
Balcony
Well, if they did adjust the math profile on the likes of 300 shields, Montezuma and Raging Rhino, wouldn't it be nice if they told their players? It does change the game and some players may not want to play high variance games and are more than happy to play the likes of Steamtower that is so much less volatile.

There is a big difference between "would be nice to" and "have to" disclose in this industry. You should know that. :)

I just reviewed SotS MAX which will come out in a dual version with Classic and MAX. You can change between the modes any time in the base game.

MAX
RTP: 96.81%, Max win: 25,000x
Classic
RTP: 96.72%, Max win: 2,500x

The MAX version has increased pays for 5OAKs premiums and you can get Wild Reel 3 in the picker round.

The rest is done by adjusting the underlying math model. Even with the slight differences, I think it is a good example what developers can do, yet still stay within the certification criteria.
 

Kroffe

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
There is a big difference between "would be nice to" and "have to" disclose in this industry. You should know that. :)

I just reviewed SotS MAX which will come out in a dual version with Classic and MAX. You can change between the modes any time in the base game.

MAX
RTP: 96.81%, Max win: 25,000x
Classic
RTP: 96.72%, Max win: 2,500x

The MAX version has increased pays for 5OAKs premiums and you can get Wild Reel 3 in the picker round.

The rest is done by adjusting the underlying math model. Even with the slight differences, I think it is a good example what developers can do, yet still stay within the certification criteria.

Would not mind a Secret of the stones bonus with wildreel on 2-3-4 ;)
Now they just need to make min bet 10p and its a winner.
:p
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
Interesting - what came out that wasnt quite right?
There are various things that have come out from the FULL TILT scandal, use of bots, insider info etc. If you google a few you can make up your own mind.

My biggest problem with online poker is that it IMO it is action rigged. I haven’t played for 5 years for that reason.
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
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Location
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Maybe Evolution Roulette next? That's already proven to be rigged in great thread here so no any negative surprises but straight to rigged :)
 

interlog

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There is a big difference between "would be nice to" and "have to" disclose in this industry. You should know that. :)

I just reviewed SotS MAX which will come out in a dual version with Classic and MAX. You can change between the modes any time in the base game.

MAX
RTP: 96.81%, Max win: 25,000x
Classic
RTP: 96.72%, Max win: 2,500x

The MAX version has increased pays for 5OAKs premiums and you can get Wild Reel 3 in the picker round.

The rest is done by adjusting the underlying math model. Even with the slight differences, I think it is a good example what developers can do, yet still stay within the certification criteria.

Well if they did inform players it would stop people wondering whether the game has been tinkered with. And tinkered with they may well have done.

Transparency and being open goes a long way.
 

goatwack

We call him....Humperdoo
CAG
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Location
Londonia
Given how we were told the games' transition from Flash to HTML5 was superficial in nature and that the games remained 'untouched', it's becoming quite clear that a few alterations were made. I mean look at Rhino, as an example :D

Developers wouldn't know transparency if it slapped them in the face and called them Bob
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
The problem being that games are never tinkered with to benefit the player. Always sneaky little tweaks to squeeze another 1% in the providers/Casinos pocket.

When you think about rtp it doesn’t actually mean a damn thing. It’s easy to get your slot to pay out 96% it just depends on the liability you want to go alongside of it. The secret for them is that they have to make it appealing enough with a reasonable potential but at the same time take your cash with the minimum fuss.

The one thing I detest is having a win that is less than your stake. This is where a lot of rtp is wasted in the providers favour. If you think about it hypothetically you play £1 a spin and you are guaranteed 98p back on every single spin. Great a slot with a 98% rtp, the only problem being is because of the maths mechanics you can never win.

I know that’s the extreme but it will be deviations of this that make us think how do I keep losing and never winning big on a slot with such a high rtp.
 

Bloatgoat

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Somewhere
The one thing I detest is having a win that is less than your stake. This is where a lot of rtp is wasted in the providers favour. If you think about it hypothetically you play £1 a spin and you are guaranteed 98p back on every single spin. Great a slot with a 98% rtp, the only problem being is because of the maths mechanics you can never win.

This ^^^^^^

Some users here would claim that the RTP is holy grail of everything. And that landbased is bad because lower RTP. Well land based at least does'nt offer such a extreme set of volatility where you would be burning not just cash but also hours to get even close to a 1000x. I've had nummerous times where in landbased i was just done playing in 20 minutes, and leave the place with 4 grand 7 out of 10 times.

Online is just shit. It's the opposite of landbased. 7 out of 10 times you simply lose. Deposit more only brings you deeper into the rabbit hole with no genuine outcome.

And yeah; games can be made matching a perfect 96%, without ever throwing out a 'huge win' in the first place. Your bets are constantly being wagered or comped for the time being your playing. It's like dropping in one hundred bucks, play at 1 and at the end the thing starts to compensate to match your session as close as possible with no real return of wins.

I'd have a casino all day where i have a fair chance of going double or nothing; not the 1/8th of a chance of becoming ahead or some shit. The only positive about the casino i play at: they send me a christmass box filled with goodies and really expensive shit. Great gesture but i pretty much paid for that like 50 times or so knowing my playing behaviour.
 

Guntis

Senior Member
Joined
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Location
United kingdom
This ^^^^^^

Some users here would claim that the RTP is holy grail of everything. And that landbased is bad because lower RTP. Well land based at least does'nt offer such a extreme set of volatility where you would be burning not just cash but also hours to get even close to a 1000x. I've had nummerous times where in landbased i was just done playing in 20 minutes, and leave the place with 4 grand 7 out of 10 times.

Online is just shit. It's the opposite of landbased. 7 out of 10 times you simply lose. Deposit more only brings you deeper into the rabbit hole with no genuine outcome.

And yeah; games can be made matching a perfect 96%, without ever throwing out a 'huge win' in the first place. Your bets are constantly being wagered or comped for the time being your playing. It's like dropping in one hundred bucks, play at 1 and at the end the thing starts to compensate to match your session as close as possible with no real return of wins.

I'd have a casino all day where i have a fair chance of going double or nothing; not the 1/8th of a chance of becoming ahead or some shit. The only positive about the casino i play at: they send me a Christmas box filled with goodies and really expensive shit. Great gesture but i pretty much paid for that like 50 times or so knowing my playing behaviour.


7 out of 10 times? I agree! Here is a very typical example - Deposit $100 and pick absolutely of any mid variance slots, set your bet at $1 a spin and you will notice the following - the slot will eat your balance till its $80 -70 and then will throw you a bonus which will put the balance up to 100, 115,120 etc and then will be killing it slowly down to 0. It will give some bonuses but your balance will never go back to your starting one.

The scenario in the example above actually is not too bad because, for most of the time, a balance flies down like a stone.
 

Bloatgoat

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@Guntis

I'm not sure if your sarcastic or not, but this is pretty much within the designed RTP. And they know that users are not going to deposit, 100, and once they hit back 100, hit a withdrawl. It's simular as leaving a withdrawl open for at least 24 hours before it's impossible to cancel / revert it. There's a big chance for casino's that users will hit cancel and continue to play again. Put a few triggers here and there and you have the player thinking he was this close to having a wrecking bonus.

I dont think that your deposit vs playing on any game is random unique. What i've often experienced was, if i deposit whatever amount, it would always set me back at least to my initial deposit value, or something below / above that value. But never something crazy like just pure loss or just pure wins.

Only once in 10 times there's this fantastic run, that only lasts for such shorts moments tho, any game is hitting, nothing can go wrong. No gamble is too much, no bonus buy is a wrongdoing one.

I said it again; it's nothing random. The only thing random is your deposit vs the straw of luck. That's all there is to it. New players get the advantage. Players who come back regular or even frequent get the piss.
 

Bloatgoat

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So can we officially call it a casino or provider implemented tweak, that they pretty much know 80% of players is not even going to bother deposit, play, and withdrawl the initial deposit back? Lol this will be my new tactic from now on. Create some administration bloat from this point on.
 

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