Protect yourself. Demand pre-approval.

[Steve Russo]

I am doing my best to end the scam that quite a few casinos have been using lately to get out of paying winners. Please take a look

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, give your opinion and/or suggestions, and join the effort to stop these rip offs.

[Max says: for the benefit of our readers I include the post in question here, as authored by the OP:]

There used to be just one excuse that a casino would make when it didn't want to pay someone. It would call him a "bonus abuser" and that would mean just about anything the casino wanted it to.

Recently, however, some on line casinos have come up with another one: "Professional gambler". Again, they give no real definition for this. Sometimes they tell you that you have been going from casino to casino to get bonuses and that makes you a "professional" player. Other times, they say that your betting system does.

In fact, as manager of Gambling Grumbles, I have even seen one casino call someone a "professional" because he bet $100 per hand in blackjack and the very same casino call someone else a professional because he bet $3 per hand!

In all cases, however, the casinos refuse to pay out winnings. True, they usually (but not always) return your deposit but they keep your winnings. Naturally, if someone plays and loses, the casino does not decide he is a bonus abuser or a professional player. The person who loses is fine and dandy and the casino is happy to honor all of his bets -- and to keep his money.

As players, I think we should put an end to these scams -- and the only way we can do that is by banding together and refusing to play at a casino unless it agrees to pre-approve us.

When you sign up for a casino, or are about to make a deposit in a casino where you have played before, send them the following e-mail. If they do not agree to its terms, do not play there:

Hi,

I have just signed up for your casino (OR: "I am about to make a deposit".) My account number is ____________.

I have been reading on line about quite a few casinos which have been denying payouts to players, calling them either "bonus abusers" or "professionals" and/or denying the validity of their identity documents.

I know that I am in no way either a bonus abuser or a professional and that my identity documents are valid, but I want to be certain that you know that, too.

Before I make any deposit, I ask that:

1. You confirm that you have investigated me to your own satisfaction and that I have no record of being either a bonus abuser or a professional gambler anywhere.

2. You confirm that my identity documents are satisfactory to you (I am willing to send them before playing if you will tell me what you need).

3. That as long as I do not violate any of the Terms and Conditions which are clearly and specifically spelled out on your website, you will pay my full account balance (including deposits, bonuses, and winnings). You will not require me to playthrough a larger amount than a specific bonus offer requires.

4. Should you, at some time in the future, feel that for any reason I am not the kind of player that you want, you will notify me of this and block my account but only after paying me my entire balance up to that point.

Given the number of players who have been accused of bonus abuse and/or being a professional, I do not feel safe in playing at any casino without first getting this confirmation. I will therefore not be making my deposit until I receive your reply.

Sincerely,
Your Name

(Full disclosure: I am the manager of Gambling Grumbles and am sick and tired of getting complaints from players who have been victimized.)

 

[Mavin1]

I have been reading many posts here where players are complaining of not being paid for the reason of chargebacks from some unkown casino somewhere in time. But mum's the word, they won't say when or where. So the player has to comb through their deposit history, casinos and finances to find this needle in a haystack, when the accusing casino supposedly has this information right there.

It is my opinion that casinos should not make this claim without giving the player involved the pertinent information to back up the casinos reasoning for non payment or lock outs.

If I go to a doctors office, my personal information is available to me, not to Jo Blow, but me. If I do business anywhere, the bank, the store whatever, my information is available to me.

Casinos for some reason have set themselves on an untouchable pedestal and feel the player has no business knowing what the reason for the casinos charges towards them are, unless the player is willing and able to go through the many hoops of making the casinos cough up the information, where last resort is always having to have a third party, a moderator step in and retrieve the information for the player.

To me this should be part of the casino accreditation standards, that a player's information should be private to all but the player and should not be kept secret from that player. If there is an issue with the players accounts, pay types or whatever, the casino should be courteous enough to their patrons to make any and all information positive or negative to the player.

A registered player is the owner of their account and if a casino has a problem with any discrepencies then they should correct the problems with the player.

Most of the threads here regarding this issue has been about a problem never arising until the player makes a withdrawal. So basically a casino has no problem with any issues as long as you are depositing and losing. But let the player win and they pull rabbits out of their hats not to pay, in some cases, which seem to be increasing.

Doing anything less than what I stated, is a tactic of holding a players funds longer and continue drawing interest on the money until they are made to cry uncle and give it up.

For players like myself that has lost trust in the major part of this industry, these issues certainly don't help to ease my distrust.

I agree, pre-approval is the best way to go and it should become standard practice.

 

[GrandMaster]

I am doing my best to end the scam that quite a few casinos have been using lately to get out of paying winners. Please take a look

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, give your opinion and/or suggestions, and join the effort to stop these rip offs.

(Full disclosure: I am the manager of Gambling Grumbles and am sick and tired of getting complaints from players who have been victimized.)

The problem is that gamblers don't want to wait, they want to play immediately. Dodgy casinos would claim anyway that new negative information has come to light between the approval of the form and the withdrawal.

 

[voltage1]

I believe .. when I first joined here I read a post by Bryan (maybe someone else) where he stated that he tries to pre Qualify with all the document BS BEFORE playing....for this very reason.
I have tried to at least send my documents the day I join the Casino ever since .... just in case..... of course I have only played at Accredited casino ever since also..

 

[all4greed]

I'm going to go against the grain but there is no way I'm going to submit my personal information to a place where I might not ever have a withdrawal or want to play at again. It's a waste of my time and just allows more opportunity for someone to use my ID for identity theft or some other illegal reason.

Years ago there was a disgruntled casino rep that posted a list of customers information on some website; hundreds of players, if not more, and I was on that list. Name, address, credit card info, etc. Anyone could pull up the information. It was pretty surprising to see all my info posted for anyone to use in whatever way they wanted to.

Besides, the invalid ID issue is BS. Just another lame casino excuse.

 

[Mavin1]

Got to agree with All4greed, my thinking cap must have been on sideways. I certainly wouldn't want to have to send docs prior to playing as I have stated in a previous thread a few weeks back. I misunderstood the post.

What my mind was wrapped around is this thing of casinos suddenly coming up with a player having a black mark somewhere in their play history, but won't say where or when, after deposits have been made and docs already approved.

To clarify, once a casino has received a players docs and all is in order, this should include a check as to whether there is an issue in that group, that would cause a problem for a withdrawal.

If there is a problem, the casino should work with the player to resolve it in a timely manner. Not just say, sorry, we found a discrepency here, but you have to figure out what and where, when they know, supposedly.

Afterall, this is an adult industry, why are players sent on easter egg hunts?

 

[rockycatt]

ok i want to say this if i seed my account with a wallet then the way i see it is the wallet q t or other is a recognized business that the casino knows
and i have employed them as a ghost writer if i can make that analogy

and thats all the casino needs in this case of funding without a credit card
end of a short transaction both ways

 

[kmartinusa]

Casinos should in no way "raise the bar" for withdrawals.

If a casino wants to scrutinize a customer's record prior to allowing their depositing and playing, then fine. Please and by all means do so, it makes sense for their business and allows for them to access risk. Even do it before ALL deposits if they want to.

If there is a higher bar or threshhold for paying the same player, then this is wrong. Once a casino allows a player to deposit whatever amount and make wagers, any and all wins/losses as a result of that specific deposit that was allowed by them are completely legitimate and should be paid. This is of course assuming that whatever terms/conditions related to bonuses are met as well.

I believe that it is morally and ethically wrong and a flawed business model to look for a reason not to play a winner after the casino has been transferred funds that are subsequentially put at risk.

Of course, the nature of internet gambling is a little bit more complicated as we are not cramming bills in a machine...I am sure that if one wanted to deposit and not pay that there are ways to do so.

Perhaps there is a solution somewhere. I do not understand the relationship between when a casino actually has the deposit in their bank account and for what period of time these funds are at risk of chargeback.

I do think that there is probably a balance between a players history, chargeback time limits and payments that make sense for all involved.

Kevin

 

[Simmo!]

Dodgy casinos would claim anyway that new negative information has come to light between the approval of the form and the withdrawal.

Ditto that. There's no easy way to make a bad casino good...affiliates can warn players though - this has proved relatively before when done em masse. Just can't think of any other way.

 

[Tony@Tower]

Communication is always going to be the best weapon that the consumer has, in any industry. If you have a bad experience at a Casino, you should talk about it.

(And if you have a good one, you should also talk about that! Too much focus on negative experience, imho )

 

[kangamick]

ok i want to say this if i seed my account with a wallet then the way i see it is the wallet q t or other is a recognized business that the casino knows
and i have employed them as a ghost writer if i can make that analogy

and thats all the casino needs in this case of funding without a credit card
end of a short transaction both ways

One thing I have never understood is why do I have to send in ID when I deposit with Neteller. To join neteller you have to send in a driver's licence or passport scan and phone, power or gas bill scan. The casino's know this, but just like to make it hard to get our winnings out.

 

[P.V.]

It's the responsibility of the casino per their licensed authority to confirm ID and although many have systems in place to check you out during registration that system isn't foolproof.

Deposit websites are a different entity with their own T & C's. This chart is interesting as it shows the requirements from this gaming authority. You'll see that gaming sites should be requesting pre-verification for pre-paid cards vs. other deposit forms. They also state doc's should be requested during regular play and again during a withdraw.

Neteller is an additional tool in your favor but can't complete the verification process. Example: What if they let a minor deposit into Neteller and the casino never verified. It would be the gloom and doom of that casino for sure.

Good question..

 

[kangamick]

It's the responsibility of the casino per their licensed authority to confirm ID and although many have systems in place to check you out during registration that system isn't foolproof.

Deposit websites are a different entity with their own T & C's. This chart is interesting as it shows the requirements from this gaming authority. You'll see that gaming sites should be requesting pre-verification for pre-paid cards vs. other deposit forms. They also state doc's should be requested during regular play and again during a withdraw.
Neteller is an additional tool in your favor but can't complete the verification process. Example: What if they let a minor deposit into Neteller and the casino never verified. It would be the gloom and doom of that casino for sure.

Good question..

So your saying they should request doc's ie drivers licence or passport while playing and then again your drivers licence or passport for a withdraw? how many times do you want players to send them? Don't you think once should be enough? If Neteller can verify doc's i'm sure it's the same process casino's use???

 

[all4greed]

I'm surprised there was an actual chart. Hard to read but very interesting.