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ProgressPlay casinos require notarized documents

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by onkel, Aug 8, 2014.

    Aug 8, 2014
  1. onkel

    onkel Experienced Member PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    webmaster
    Location:
    Larnaca, Cyprus, Cyprus
    Hi fellow CM'ers,

    I'd just like to warn players who sign up with ProgressPlay sites (such as dazzlecasino.com, quartzcasino.com and luckywinslots.com) that if you deposit using a method that they can't send withdrawals back to, they WILL require you to send in notarized documents regardless of where you're from.

    In my case I deposited with my swedish Mastercard, and was forced to withdraw via bank transfer.

    "Because you have chosen an alternative method to withdraw, different than the deposit method used; we are required to ask for your documents certified/notarized by a notary public or solicitor as per our terms and conditions. Please see our terms and conditions here: You must register/login in order to see the link.

    The certifier must:

    • sign and date the copy of the document
    • indicate his/her name beneath the signature
    • indicate profession
    • provide contact details.

    By officially stamping and signing the copies of your documents the notary public or solicitor is verifying that he/she has seen the originals and can confirm that they are legitimate, authentic and in the case of an ID a true likeness.

    - photocopy of your Photo ID, Passport or Driver's License.

    - photocopy of a recent utility bill or bank statement (not older than 3 months) showing the date, your name and address.

    - photocopy of the back and front of the credit card that you have used with us. You can cover 8 middle digits and CVV code for security reasons."



    As this is a huge pain in the ass + a considerable expense for the player, I thought it was worth sharing.
     
    2 people like this.
  2. Aug 8, 2014
  3. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    I suppose it's even more difficult for you since you also are in the wrong country.
    Flying home? ;)

    Good to know, but luckily I've never heard of those casinos and I only use Neteller.
     
  4. Aug 8, 2014
  5. onkel

    onkel Experienced Member PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    webmaster
    Location:
    Larnaca, Cyprus, Cyprus
    ha, well I'm living in Sweden since a couple of years back, I think CM just caught my previous location when I registered via facebook signup.

    How do I even go about doing this in Sweden? The people I've asked about this, including my bank, have never got such a request before.
     
  6. Aug 8, 2014
  7. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    I don't know either. Probably some lawfirm will do it for you, or try the police.
    Normally our ID cards or passports are enough.

    I actually thought you were down there. Change it :)
     
  8. Aug 8, 2014
  9. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Closer to 100 than Birth

    Occupation:
    Not in workforce
    Location:
    Ontario
    Here it costs around $100 to get a document notarized. No where I worked would have given a huge discount for multiple documents.

    Notaries don't really verify the document is "legit", they just verify it is a true copy of what they have been shown. For instance, they won't be doing a search of the Driver Licence records, or the passport database. Of course, obvious fakes would be refused.

    While most casinos have a clause that permits them to ask for such, was it clear that they will be asked for if you choose an alternate withdrawal method? Since they cannot pay back to Mastercard, perhaps they should not accept it, or at least have some sort of warning attached.
     
  10. Aug 8, 2014
  11. Tirilej

    Tirilej Still a Lady CAG

    Occupation:
    Breathing
    Location:
    Sweden
    That's a fun thing with Sweden. Here anyone can verify any document for someone else.
    We just sign our names and a phone number and it's done. Easy and cheap :)

    I doubt that any casino would accept that though.
     
  12. Aug 8, 2014
  13. onkel

    onkel Experienced Member PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    webmaster
    Location:
    Larnaca, Cyprus, Cyprus
    I had a long back and forth with a guy named Stuart there and, apparently, if I also deposited with VISA, they would allow me to withdraw the full amount back to that card without the need for notarized documents. Since my bank don't issue VISA cards that doesn't work for me.

    I asked if I could make a Skrill/Neteller deposit, but since my first deposit was with a "credit card", I would still be required to post the notarized documents.

    A warning would definitely be in order. The minimum cost to notarize these documents is €75 - so beware from using Mastercard, Ukash, PayMyCard etc at these casinos!

    My personal opinion is that one should stay away from these new Microgaming casinos altogether. There is no need for the casino to request this and it is not required by LGA - it's simply to make it more difficult/expensive for players to withdraw.
     
    3 people like this.
  14. Aug 8, 2014
  15. suzecat

    suzecat Dormant account CAG MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    California
    Jazzy you know i was a notary public for years. The most important service the notary provides is to prove the identity of the signer through picture ID. The notary does not have to witness the document being signed. The signer simply tells the notary they signed the document and the notary compares the sig on the id to the sig on the doc. Simplest.;)
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Aug 8, 2014
  17. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The problem here is that this casino is making it a more or less routine requirement for players to get their documents notarised. This is a long way from the idea that this is usually done as a last step where there are serious doubts about the documents the player has provided, but where the casino is willing to accept these documents if they can get a second opinion they can trust, a notary or solicitor for example.

    Such a dramatic policy change from the industry norm needs to be in the terms and conditions, not issued by ambush when a player has already made their first deposit by a valid method listed as acceptable by the casino.

    They may be trying to hide this requirement because they fear that they will deter players who can only use a deposit method that will guarantee they will have to get their documents notarised if they want to withdraw.


    This is probably deserving of an official warning to players that they should avoid selecting a deposit method that does not accept inbound transfers from casinos unless they are prepared to send in notarised copies of their documents at their own expense.

    There is nothing in international anti money laundering law that requires a business to insist on notarised documents as routine. The laws don't set down detailed procedures, it's all about a company that handles money making reasonable efforts to prevent themselves from being the unwitting route of money laundering.

    As well as being very expensive in some cases, it's something many ordinary people have never heard of, let alone experienced, so they don't really know how to go about it. It is even illegal in a few countries for certain documents to be notarised, so if a player from such a country complied with the demand, they would be breaking their own country's laws. It would make it a no lose situation for the casino as such a player could never withdraw, so the casino should really bar such countries from playing, or at least playing with certain deposit methods.

    I would not play at a casino where I knew 100% that I would be required to get notarised copies of my documents to withdraw, so they have already lost another potential customer. Even if I used a method outside of this scope, I would still avoid such a "trigger happy" security department because they could just as easily ambush me with another draconian requirement, such as sending a notarised proof of how the money I deposited got into Neteller in the first place.
     
    3 people like this.
  18. Aug 21, 2014
  19. Bjack

    Bjack Dormant account

    Occupation:
    working in the gaming industry
    Location:
    Limassol, Cyprus
    ProgressPlay Notarized Documents Issue

    Hello

    I am answering this post as a representative of ProgressPlay

    Notarized/certified documents are requested for withdrawals made with a payment method different from the deposit one as stated in our terms and conditions, thx onkel You must register/login in order to see the link.

    We understand this procedure is a burden though you should know that it had to be set in order to face the increasing number of chargebacks. In fact at the beginning of our activity such procedure did not exist and players would deposit with Master card withdraw their money with a different method and then make a chargeback.
    Therefore player behaviour generated the setup of such procedure that has been implemented since last March only. We are aware of the inconvenience of this procedure that we did not wish to implement.

    Unfortunately chargebacks are not free for operators. Regardless of the amounts themselves, procedure itself is costly and too many chargebacks (either in counts or amounts) generate major issues with the processing companies. In fact they may cease offering their services if chargebacks are in excess.
    As we are currently working on the implementation of 3D secure we hope to be able to use this notarized/certified procedure in rare cases only. I will update you on the 3D secure process as soon as it is implemented.

    Regarding the specific complaint we are sorry that the 3D secure will not come in time to solve this issue.
    However we are delighted to see that this player is cashing out 10 times his deposit amount and hope this will cover his disappointment. Of course once his account is verified there will be no further issues for him to withdraw future winnings.

    We value the feedback and appreciate the contribution of this esteemed forum. We will always be available to discuss and solve any issue to improve our service to players.
     
  20. Aug 21, 2014
  21. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    What a load of nonsense.
    Notarized ID is not necessary to prevent the above scenario. 99% of casinos, to prevent such incidences, simply get the player to sign a card fax-back form acknowledging the deposits which they can present to the card provider if the player tries to chargeback.
    In most cases notarized ID is routinely practised by rogues/Playtech sites as a barrier to withdrawing winnings.

    I think ALL sites that threaten notarized ID checks should have an additional term similar to this and be honest about what it entails:

    "If, at our discretion, we require notarized ID checks from the player the player should be aware that this can incur significant costs to themselves and impose a delay on any pending withdrawal(s) in place prior to the request. The casino is not liable for refunding any of these costs incurred." :mad:
     
    3 people like this.
  22. Aug 21, 2014
  23. Bjack

    Bjack Dormant account

    Occupation:
    working in the gaming industry
    Location:
    Limassol, Cyprus
    notarized/certified documents

    Hello Dunover,

    Thank you for your answer but the situation has changed and what is happening today is not how it used to be. Players doing chargebacks are using more complex patterns. In fact the card fax-back form you mentioned may prevent chargebacks only when the card holder is legitimate.
    Unfortunately today in most cases chargebacks are made by players using cards that belong to third parties with fake signatures. Therefore getting a piece of paper as a deposit confirmation with a fake signature does not help.
    What do help are notarized documents as they certify the signature as being the one of the cardholder.

    Again we will solve this issue with 3D secure implementation as we also wish to use this notarized/certified procedure as little as possible.
     
  24. Aug 21, 2014
  25. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Hold on a mo! Of course a fax back form would spot this. If you have a front/back scan of the card you would have the name embossed on it and the signature visible on the back. Of course, I haven't mentioned the other checkable ID that you would get with it like Passport scan/DL/addressed bank statements etc. This suffices for most sites.
    As for 3D secure, IF the depositor has the card illegally and ID details of the third party, he can simply set up the 3D details himself anyway.
     
    3 people like this.
  26. Aug 21, 2014
  27. redmara

    redmara Full Member

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Deutschland
    I always, always have my account verified before I make a deposit. Always.
    Couple years back... cant remember at what casino.... I made a deposit and ended out cashing out. Wasnt much.... around a 100 Euros. Got email a few days later I had to get my documents verfied by notary service.... huge hassle. Ended up spending 65 Euros for notarizations, several hours of driving all over the place to get all notarized... and in the end basically only made 35 Euros if you deduct the cost of notarization. Never again....
    So when I join a casino I get my account notarized prior to making the first deposit now. Served me well. Never had any issues again and got my money within the timeframe the casino stated without any hassle.
     
  28. Aug 21, 2014
  29. Bjack

    Bjack Dormant account

    Occupation:
    working in the gaming industry
    Location:
    Limassol, Cyprus
    Hello redmara
    Thank you for your understanding.

    You are right Dunover,
    However you’ll be surprised how advanced fraudsters have become. Photoshop and other software help them fake it all within a moment. We recently experienced such cases with very gifted fraudsters.
    3D secure provides with extra security levels such as phone confirmation (code sent by sms) making it more difficult for card thieves unless they steal your phone too…
     
  30. Aug 22, 2014
  31. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    If credit cards are so damn risky, how come an increasing number now actively drive new players towards using their credit cards by penalising those who use eWallets. The beauty of eWallets is that withdrawals can go back to the method used to deposit, yet despite pointing this out, you are the FIRST operator to actually embrace my argument, and then add some bells and whistles. However, you also admit that you do indeed require notarized documents as routine for ALL players who use MasterCard for example, and given the very high costs, not to mention inconvenience, this is such a significant factor for players when making the choice as to whether to play at a given casino, that is needs to be clearly stated in the terms and conditions which deposit methods will 100% guarantee that players will need to send in notarised documents.

    Not having 3D secure yet is your own damn fault, the banks recognised the risk years ago and implemented the system in the expectation that chip & pin would drive the fraudsters towards the next weakness in the system, the "card not present" online or phone transaction. Rather than spend the money, you have held off till the problem became overwhelming, and are now saddling the honest player with hundreds of pounds, Euros, etc as a routine and undisclosed cost of receiving their first withdrawal. For some, the cost of obtaining notarised documents will far exceed the value of the amount won, so they will be forced to walk away and donate their just winnings to the casino, along with the money the casino won fairly from players who didn't get lucky. Is it any wonder that far from improving matters, you are finding even more players are charging back. Not only will the fraudsters be charging back, but so will many decent and honest players be seeking the help of their banks in resolving the issue of being ambushed for hundreds of pounds in legal expenses just to receive their winnings. From the bank's point of view, the idea that there would be a "routine" requirement to produce notarised ID after having paid for entertainment with their card would look like a rogue business exploiting the unwary consumer, which would be a legal justification for them intervening to recover the payment.

    Much of this argument would justify ALL casinos switching to notarised documents as a matter of routine, yet it's only ProgressPlay that has suffered, despite many casinos being vulnerable to stolen cards being used, but who also have systems in place to manage the risk such that most players do NOT have to supply notarised ID when depositing by MasterCard.

    The routine requirement for notarised ID if implemented across the board would kill the industry stone dead as the majority of players receiving such requests would be "newbies" who would be using their usual payment cards having not learned about the availability of the likes of Neteller which cater specifically for bi directional transactions as are common with gambling, but not in regular shopping or entertainment.
     
    2 people like this.
  32. Aug 22, 2014
  33. suzecat

    suzecat Dormant account CAG MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    California
    Don't casino reps usually register with CM? The "newbie member" with user name bjack says he is answering posts on behalf of ProgressPlay. What's up with that??
     
    3 people like this.
  34. Aug 22, 2014
  35. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    There was another incidence of this recently, the thread where I told the bloke his name should be in pink because he should seek mod approval for his credentials first. is this the same one, or another??
     
  36. Aug 22, 2014
  37. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Thanks guys. The person is legit. Modified account.
     
    2 people like this.
  38. Aug 28, 2014
  39. quber

    quber Senior Member

    Occupation:
    spy
    Location:
    Europe
    Hi Black,

    Seeing as the OP is from Cyprus and so are you why don't you just invite him for a drink and check his docs in person? :)
     
    1 person likes this.

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