Prime Casino remove my money from Neteller!

[Vesuvio]

I'd say that from the name-calling, (particularly the barb about a poster acting like a six-year old) the implicit threat about knowing who a forum member "really" is...

The final time I quote this (promise), but Spear posted:

Joshu -

I hope you have the balls to apologize for claiming that Playtech follows any rule - because they don't run any casinos and each operator makes its own decisions. The least you can do is get your facts straight.

Imagine it's you being provoked in this way, and you know the following: 1) Playtech do own and run some of the casinos using their software, 2) the person addressing you works for Playtech but hasn't made that fact public knowledge on this forum. You'd need the patience of an absolute saint not to respond. The 6-yr old comment was fair (we all sometimes act like that when upset with something) and it wasn't an implicit threat - he just made it clear that Spearmaster worked for Playtech (it's no longer a threat if you've revealed the info).

If Spearmaster was in the position he was in before working for Playtech I'd be shocked by a casino manager getting into this exchange (and I think people who weren't aware of the fact may have been shocked), but as it is I think it's fair enough.

On the general point - I tend to agree - at least from a PR point of view. Casino managers should never really argue or get into debates. They should just occasionally post carefully checked PR statements, or show up to do something nice or accept an award. If I was paid to advise Joshua that's what I'd suggest (though I might analyse traffic to his site after this recent issue first ).

On the other hand, it's refreshing to have an intelligent and articulate casino manager willing to openly debate issues. It even adds a frisson that he's teetering on the edge of self-destruction (looking at his web presence and origins he reminds me of the guy behind the Jackpot Factory "inspirational stories"). I think it'll be a loss if, as expected, he keeps a vastly lower profile in future.

 

[Vesuvio]

...confidential information-dropping to try and prove his knowledge of the industry.

Assuming the information about Playtech and Neteller is correct, I'm shocked you're criticising him for this. Sure, his tone might be a little grating, but would it be better if he just kept to an industry code of silence on this? (to answer the rhetorical question , probably yes from a casino/affiliate point of view)

 

[KasinoKing]

There's been so much drama and diversion in this thread I haven't been able to keep a train of thought long enough to contribute, but here's what I see today:

Prime made a mistake, admitted it, remedied it, and have changed their policy. What else is to discuss about them?

Were I a casino manager, I would not tie my own hands in regards to 'reverse chargebacks' by explicit T&C. Nothing but a weakness to exploit.

Of course in a perfect world all transactions would be audited perfectly, but it's not a perfect world. There is a level of trust in any business arrangement.

Prime probably has no special arrangement with NT, any casino can do this if Prime can. The problem is with NeTeller and as others have mentioned, that is where the players' focus should be to affect any real change in security.

The other two topics should have their own threads or be lain to rest, imo.

edit: just saw another thread... not what i meant pg, Jens should pab and it all should be laid to rest imo.

The above post says it all. :notworthy

I've been keeping an eye on this thread, though not reading ALL of ALL the posts as many resemble War & Peace and do my head in, but I've got the gist of what's being said.

4. Jens...
This leaves as the ONLY justification for voiding Jens' winnings the fact that she withdrew before completing the full WR in the mistaken belief that EZBonus works the same in every casino, allowing this to blind her to the possibility that some casinos may intend otherwise.
It is clear that Jens is an "advantage player", and not a player the casino would want to offer future bonuses to, but on the other hand, there is no obligation on players to lose with their SUB, they have every right to try their best to beat the house within the rules of the game.

As a self confessed bonus hunter of 6-years standing and nearly daily player of online casinos I tend to side with the players in any disputes, but I deplore the type of play Jens did.
OK, you can argue until you're blue in the face that placing all your money on one bet in not against the T&C's, but come on, it's not 'normal' casino play or using the bonus in the spirit it was given. I fully support the casino's right to withhold bonus/winnings in these cases. I also have very little sympathy for players who do not take the time to read the T&C's before they deposit, and NO sympathy if said player is intending to 'abuse' the bonus.
I would not mind betting that it's because too many players were taking advantage of MG's 'Flexi-Bonus' in a similar way which has led to most MG's now saying you have to complete the full WR.
I think this is called biting the hand that feeds you.

Quoting Lojo again:-
The other two topics should have their own threads or be lain to rest, imo.

If these other two topics do not have their own threads started then I also call on CM to lock this one.
This thread was about a casino removing money from Neteller without the player's consent (a very big issue in my eyes) but has been totally de-railed into unrelated discussions and mindless personal attacks.

Just my 2c
KK

 

[Vesuvio]

OK, you can argue until you're blue in the face that placing all your money on one bet in not against the T&C's, but come on, it's not 'normal' casino play or using the bonus in the spirit it was given.

Ah, the famous spirit the bonus was given in You've really let the affiliate thing go to your head, KK. Bonuses are given to trap (encourage, if you prefer) people into depositing, as almost all deposits to on-line casinos are lost. "Extended playing time", "entertainment" and, as "Professor" outrageously claimed at CAP recently, "reduc[ing players'] risk for trying out a new casino" is just trying to put a gloss on a brutal business. The only "spirit" involved is greed (from the players' side as well as the casino's).

 

[Casinomeister]

Like any lively discussion, there will always be stray topics - this really can't be helped, especially when there are a number of subjects involved and players who have peculiar agendas.

No big deal, but that isnt actually correct is it?

Yes, it is correct. But to be more specific, his account was suspended a number of times - (more than any member here) before being told to take a permanent hike. I'll respect this thread by not derailing it with this - I'm PMing you further info.

The above post says it all. :notworthy

I've been keeping an eye on this thread, though not reading ALL of ALL the posts as many resemble War & Peace and do my head in, but I've got the gist of what's being said...

I'm pretty much in the same boat since today is a holiday and I'm doing some speed reading . But what an interesting thread, and it's been civil relatively speaking. Thanks for those who keep their emotions in check while trying to respond. There have been some very constructive and valuable criticism here

TravelMaxx should have PABd. He hasn't yet, but that's his prerogative. I appreciate Prime Casino's candor and participation in this thread. I'm satisfied with the resolution of the two players - which most everyone else has echoed favorably.

 

[dominique]

As an aside, Neteller used to regularly remove money from accounts owned by affiliates. (probably still does). A casino would make a payment error or mix payments up. Then they would withdraw the incorrect amount and deposit the correct one.

This happened to me with some regularity, and with various casinos.

I have to say though that this usually happened within a day or two. There really needs to be a time limit for this sort of thing.

On the other hand, when I buy something with a credit card, I can cancel the payment. I once bought some new tires and a week later one of them blew up. To force the dealer into giving me a free replacement, I had to cancel the credit card payment. Worked like a charm.

That's kind of the same principle, no? The ability to revoke a payment?

 

[jetset]

I've asked Neteller management to respond to this as personally I'm terrified. The CSR on livechat insisted that the situation could not have happened and said that if the casino did act in this way then it was illegal but obviously you can no more trust neteller livehelp than a casino one!

Hopefully they will respond soon, though she did insist that it wasn't normally neteller's policy to comment on forums.

I, too am trying to get an answer from Neteller on this "chargeback" issue - thus far without success.

In the meantime, I think this quote from the Neteller T&Cs found by Grandmaster may be interesting reading:

QUOTE: 10.5. You acknowledge and agree that all electronic money purchases, transfers or withdrawals into or out of your Account are final and not reversible. NETELLER cannot arrange for your Account to be refunded where you believe the purchase, transfer or withdrawal was made in error. UNQUOTE

 

[Casinomeister]

QUOTE: 10.5. You acknowledge and agree that all electronic money purchases, transfers or withdrawals into or out of your Account are final and not reversible. NETELLER cannot arrange for your Account to be refunded where you believe the purchase, transfer or withdrawal was made in error. UNQUOTE

They may not be able to "arrange" this, but Neteller can charge back. I know of an RTG casino that received a "chargeback" from Neteller. Somehow a player made a deposit in his/her Neteller account with a credit card, and then made deposits in the casino. I forget what the actual circumstances were, but the bank cancelled the card, the player's funds were charged back from the Neteller account, and thus the funds were removed from the casino.

This is one of the reasons why casinos still want ID documents even though a player has deposited through Neteller. It's not 100% safe.

 

[Lunkan]

I can confirm that my withdrawal was successful and that the money now is back in my Neteller account.

 

[Casinomeister]

I can confirm that my withdrawal was successful and that the money now is back in my Neteller account.

Thanks for the update.

 

[vinylweatherman]

So, Neteller can breach their own T & C if they feel the need - just like a casino.
Since Neteller have established this in practice, this term could be challenged in court by any player wanting to seek redress from a rogue casino. While the rogue casino would laugh in the face of any court threat, Neteller would be named as an accessory in the action along with the casino.
Judgement would be made against the casino (if the evidence presented warrants it), and Neteller, as a UK regulated company, would be required to recover the money for the player, as they have demonstrated they can.

One way to force Neteller to respond on this, as they seem unwilling to give a straight answer, is for someone who has actually been a victim of this to complain formally, quoting this very term, and asking Neteller to comply with it.

 

[tim5ny]

.perhaps i just dont understand the anger because im new here.
who knows

We'll give you a little more time to become miserable like the rest of us!

 

[Casinomeister]

[hey Tim, I liked your first answer better ]

...perhaps i just dont understand the anger because im new here.
who knows

If you want a relatively stress-free reading experience, stick with the "The Amazing World of Online Casinos and Poker Rooms" Once you delve into the complaints section, it gets a little thick. Mainly because this forum attracts all types - bonus whores, "real" players, affiliates, casino operators, affiliate managers, fraudsters, rogue operators, side-walk supervisors, industry spokespersons, crisis commentators, and all sorts of odds and ends. Each topic - if it's volatile enough will bring all these elements into it and we can have a really good rumble

The important thing is that most everyone can maintain their cool. It's on rare circumstance that an account gets suspended or a member gets reprimanded. We're like family
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/32red.17694/

So, Neteller can breach their own T & C if they feel the need - just like a casino...

But merchant accounts are set up differently than member accounts. I'm sure there are safeguards against fraud etc. I'll try to see what's up about this.

 

[dominique]

this forum attracts all types - bonus whores, "real" players, affiliates, casino operators, affiliate managers, fraudsters, rogue operators, side-walk supervisors, industry spokespersons, crisis commentators, and all sorts of odds and ends.

I want to be a side-walk supervisor!

 

[Pinababy69]

I'm not sure what a crisis commentator does, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Should I write something real quick, in case we have a crisis?

 

[Casinomeister]

I'm not sure what a crisis commentator does, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Should I write something real quick, in case we have a crisis?

If you can match the verbiage of VWM, then go for it. He's by far the crisis commentator that inspires me with awe.

 

[Mousey]

I'll just remain one of the 'odds and ends'.

 

[Pinababy69]

I'll just remain one of the 'odds and ends'.

That's screaming for a snappy comeback.

 

[bash_2357]

Just for an update. Played a mixture of french roulette and Avalon ( slots)- the latter hit free spins 3 times but unfortunately only 80p a spin.
Final result cashed out for 1255 ( an additional 220 compared to my neteller balance). Money has arrived in my neteller account - have instantly withdrawn!!

 

[indievertigo]

Haha nice one, so both the players have cashed out more than original! Lets hope that be a lesson to casinos, never attempt to steal from a player.

 

[hunterduke]

Just for an update. Played a mixture of french roulette and Avalon ( slots)- the latter hit free spins 3 times but unfortunately only 80p a spin.
Final result cashed out for 1255 ( an additional 220 compared to my neteller balance). Money has arrived in my neteller account - have instantly withdrawn!!

IM REAL GLAD TO HEAR!!
although neither player made a huge advance in their cashouts im happy they didnt loose.
its unfortunate they had to go through this aggrevation to begin with though.
has anyone ever heard back from neteller on this?
hunt

 

[Casinomeister]

Thread split

Due to the fact that a number of rants and personal digs got a bit out of hand last night, I've split this thread to keep this one focused. Thanks for your understanding.

The rants have been moved to this thread:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/17985/

Before participating in any rant, please review the forum rules. Thanks!
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/

 

[Ferretktf]

I have had a response from Neteller to my concerned query...

It's not a particularly satisfactory answer however, on the assumption that what has been stated in this thread - from both sides - is true.

They quote ....

"Under our merchant contracts, there are only exception cases where a merchant can withdraw member funds. However, these are very strict circumstances due to issues such as technical errors. Merchants are not able to withdraw member funds from NETELLER accounts at their own discretion."


However - Prime appeared to have used "their own discretion" in this case. Or they have misled Neteller as to the true nature of the claw-back ... in which case they must be on dodgy legal ground.


Thoughts?

 

[pangloss]

My post #77

I am going to make a second and repeat request. Produce ALL the correspondence between Prime and Neteller that resulted in the subject funds (2 X accounts) being removed from Neteller and sent to Prime.

I suspect you misrepresented the position to Neteller. I suspect you told Neteller that the players had defrauded Prime Casino and obtained the winnings by unlawful means. In these circumstances not only have the players been libelled and their good character defamed, but in addition, the false pretence to Neteller in order to obtain an advantage is yet another criminal offence to be taken into account in this sorry saga.

Produce and publish the said correspondence and demonstrate that my suspicions are unfoundered. I bet you don't

And the response:

If I hadn't noticed, I clearly wouldn't be here addressing the issues. You seem to be unsatisfied the way I'm handling things. Why is that exactly? What's your angle in this? The players are both happy but you continue to pour fuel into the fire.

Like I have over the last two days, make yourself familiar with how Neteller works with a Vendor account before making sweeping criminal allegations about how we do business. Some of you have very valid points but you for example are clearly picking fights for no good reason. Who are you fighting for right now exactly? The players have both said they are happy with the resolution. Why aren't you?

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first. I'll also say that this entire incident occurred as a result of us changing the T&C's. From now on, I'll put a notice on the Casino index page of changes and a date. From that point, there should be no more excuses for not reading them.

I know you'd like to believe that there is a secret conspiracy going on where my Casino is defrauding players by the millions by lying to Neteller but that's simply not the case. You're welcome to call Neteller and ask them what kind of documentation is required because there is none required.

Any Casino or in fact, any vendor using Neteller can reverse a charge so long as the funds still exist in the account. In the future, please relax your tone a bit. I'm doing my best to sort this out. Since you're keen on giving me orders, how about you take some yourself. Go contact Neteller and ask them what kind of documenation or proof a vendor needs in order to issue a chargeback. When you find out there isn't any, perhaps you can come back and apologize labeling us as liars and criminals.

Thanks,

Josh.

Members (players) are not a party to the contract between Merchants and Neteller. There is no clause within the Member's Terms of Use that permits, authorises, consents or in any aknowledges the capacity of either Neteller or Merchants to debit a Member's account in the form of a reverse chargeback.

Having said that, in Ferretktf's post above Neteller insist that "strict circumstances" need to exist in exceptional cases before a Merchant is able to facilitate a reverse chargeback from Member's accounts.

One can ordinarily assume those "strict circumstances" would be set out and reduced to writing for further consideration before Neteller can be satisfied an "exceptional case" exists and consent to a Merchant's request to a reverse chargeback.

The version offerred above by Prime Casino as to the procedure adopted to facilitate a reverse chargeback can in no way be reconciled with the position put by Neteller. Furthermore, the narrative supplied by Prime Casino with respect to facilitating reverse chargebacks has not been corroborated by a single identity within the online gaming community.

No facts have emerged to resile from the position I put in Post #77 above.


...

 

[jetset]

I have had a response from Neteller to my concerned query...

It's not a particularly satisfactory answer however, on the assumption that what has been stated in this thread - from both sides - is true.

They quote ....

"Under our merchant contracts, there are only exception cases where a merchant can withdraw member funds. However, these are very strict circumstances due to issues such as technical errors. Merchants are not able to withdraw member funds from NETELLER accounts at their own discretion."


However - Prime appeared to have used "their own discretion" in this case. Or they have misled Neteller as to the true nature of the claw-back ... in which case they must be on dodgy legal ground.


Thoughts?

You have had more success in eliciting a response from Neteller (however facile) than we have had on media enquiries to the e-wallet's official spokesmen and investor contacts dating back almost a week now.

We requested from them three things:

1) An explanation as to why Prime Casino was able to reverse a credit to a client's Neteller account despite the passage of 2 weeks, and without first consulting the account holder.

2) A progress report on the fact that the 75 days Neteller said would be required to pay out US players on their frozen funds are almost up (June 4 by our calculations since their last announcement on March 21)

3) Comment on the fact that Neteller shares on the AIM remain suspended despite the lapse of several months (since mid-January) without further reports.

We have not received even the courtesy of an acknowledgement of these enquiries.

This is hardly the conduct one expects from a professional financial institution handling millions of dollars and pounds sterling and responsible to the FSA on the Isle of Man.