Primapoker funds confiscations (Lucky Nugget Poker and Poker333)

[joepro]

Please pardon my intrusion in this thread.

I too have been playing online poker for a few years. In fact, I got started on the PrimaPoker network, through Royal Vegas, when there was barely 500 players logged in @ primetime. I then joined PartyPoker. Although they had over 20x as many players, I liked the quality of the games and the overlays better on Prima.

I quickly got turned off because of:

a) Loosely written Terms & Conditions
b) Terms & Conditions changed once the terms had been met
c) Software bugs (putting up 2+ BB in a row in MTT tourneys, or skipping blinds altogether for an orbit - this was confirmed as wrong by Lou Krieger in the 'expert' series tournaments) (not sure if this has yet been fixed)
d) Promotions rewarding bonus hunters (to avoid calling them whores). Friends of mine have been awarded freeroll entries in 100k tournaments because they had not played there since taking advantage of the signup offer. Whereas I would've had to play 3000 raked hands to qualify. Seeing as how I played, backed then, 15 STT's a week, I was not eligible anyways.
e) Lack of inter account transfers. Most other poker sites allow you to do this. Prima has to realize that in the digital economy age, this is a reality. People need to be able to transfer funds, quickly and effortlessly, to other peers.
f) Poker room outfits seemed more friendly than casino outfits.

Also, kindly note that I have an account on 3 different PartyPoker skins, with 3 different aliases. This is not encouraged, it's a requirement! I can't use the same alias on each skin. Why is this appropriate on the largest poker network and not on PrimaPoker? Before you ask why I have 3 accounts, I will tell you. I didn't know about rakeback when I opened the first one. I then opened 2 other ones to get rakeback while 8-tabling.

So, with all the facts as they were presented, it appears as though no players have been defrauded. The deposits have all cleared, hence no money laundering. There's confusion about setting up multiple accounts on different skins. The terms & conditions are not clear.

Therefore, PrimaPoker should do the right thing and give the money back. If not, stop hiding behind the 'they broke the rules' bit and provide hard evidence that FRAUD has happened.

Joe.

PS: I'm aware I will get flamed because of my low post count. It's your prerogative. I was sent here via a link on 2+2 and was compelled to add my 2 cents.

 

[Webzcas]

e) Lack of inter account transfers. Most other poker sites allow you to do this. Prima has to realize that in the digital economy age, this is a reality. People need to be able to transfer funds, quickly and effortlessly, to other peers

Hi Joe. Can you clarify whether Party Poker or 'most other poker sites' allow blatant Chip Dumping, as is the situation that Sweetdenny has admitted to doing on the prima network? Can you also name the poker room or rooms that openly allow chip dumping on their site.

Or is this actually a case of liaising with a poker manager to facilitate the transfer of funds to another player with your written authorisation, therefore no chip dumping actually occurs on the tables.

 

[Chatmaster]

Hi joepro

No reason for you to get flamed, you have made a great contribution to this thread.

If you don't mind, I would like to respond on the following questions you raised.

a) Loosely written Terms & Conditions
b) Terms & Conditions changed once the terms had been met

The error here normally lies with the Poker room in question and not the entire Prima network. If you feel that Poker333 are guilty of this I would appreciate your feedback. Every time an incident like this happens we learn and I for one like to fix any mistakes we might make.

c) Software bugs (putting up 2+ BB in a row in MTT tourneys, or skipping blinds altogether for an orbit - this was confirmed as wrong by Lou Krieger in the 'expert' series tournaments) (not sure if this has yet been fixed)

I am not aware of any software bugs with the Prima software, this is a very serious claim and I would like to address this with Prima. I would appreciate it if you could PM me detailed information.

d) Promotions rewarding bonus hunters (to avoid calling them whores). Friends of mine have been awarded Freeroll entries in 100k tournaments because they had not played there since taking advantage of the signup offer. Whereas I would've had to play 3000 raked hands to qualify. Seeing as how I played, backed then, 15 STT's a week, I was not eligible anyways.

Once again a specific poker room (skin) that are responsible for that. Prima do not do these things as these kind of offers are in the hands of the different operators.

e) Lack of inter account transfers. Most other poker sites allow you to do this. Prima has to realize that in the digital economy age, this is a reality. People need to be able to transfer funds, quickly and effortlessly, to other peers.

Point taken!

Also, kindly note that I have an account on 3 different PartyPoker skins, with 3 different aliases. This is not encouraged, it's a requirement! I can't use the same alias on each skin. Why is this appropriate on the largest poker network and not on PrimaPoker? Before you ask why I have 3 accounts, I will tell you. I didn't know about rakeback when I opened the first one. I then opened 2 other ones to get rakeback while 8-tabling.

The reason why Prima is against multiple aliases is simple, and that is one of the reasons I personally don't play anywhere else but Prima. With the Prima network players from the different poker skins play together. What this means is that if I were allowed for example 3 different aliases I can play at a 10 player table with my 3 aliases knowing at least the value of 6 cards before the flop. This increases my odds of winning and beating the other players at the table big time.

So, with all the facts as they were presented, it appears as though no players have been defrauded. The deposits have all cleared, hence no money laundering. There's confusion about setting up multiple accounts on different skins. The terms & conditions are not clear.

The problem at the moment is that everyone are not looking at this from a neutral perspective. I am currently awaiting confirmation and proof of what has taken place here, and until such time shall appreciate it if everyone cool on the issue with sweetdenny. Apart from the fact that Chip dumping is wrong and it is clearly stated in the prima rules i have a suspicion after reading this thread over and over that we do not have the whole story here. I would like forum members to understand although I have received an thorough explanation on what has taken place here I would much rather give full explanation after reviewing the evidence and supplying Bryan with the full details.

Then a final question, I would like to know what other poker rooms do with monies that have been confiscated? Please understand I am curios and would like to know. I am aware that they do confiscate monies and close accounts as well.

 

[sweetdenny]

Dear Chatmaster

You say you are awaiting a full explanation of this case and are going to review the evidence then give Bryan a full explanation of the case. Well how about giving me a full explanation first as i am still awaiting one six months since this started. If you are saying that there is another reason that the funds were frozen other than because of chipdumping which is all i have been told from your poker manager then why is this only gonna be stated now i have been given no other reason than chipdumping and as this isnt in your rules is the reason i am disputing this case. If you have any other evidence in this case it should be presented to me before Bryan as this is good manners you can do this by emailing me direct or pm me here. Or just post it on the forum for all to see. Secondly you ask what other sites do with your funds when they freeze the accounts well they dont confiscate the funds in the accounts of people for a start if fraud has been committed they return it to the players who have been defrauded and monies that have been gained fairly are returned to the players and the account closed the reason sites do not keep money that doesent belong to them is because this is stealing and is a crime (At least it is in the UK cant comment on other countries) as im not that clued up on world law but i do think stealing is a crime in most countries. I also know that sites do not say your funds have dissapeared into cyber space when you ask what has happened to them if you email any sites chatmaster im sure they will be pleased to tell you what there individual policies are. Also when asked what sites will turn a blind eye to people chipdumping heads up with no one else involved i have already stated Ladbrokes i can provide a date and handnumber in which Actionjack (probably ladbrokes most well known player) and another player are chipdumping in exactly the same way as i did to my friend with action jack even typing in the window rasie fold if for one minute anyone thinks ladbrokes are gonna confiscate all of there best known players funds for this i think they will find they are very much mistaken i think at worst they will give a warningn to the players not to do it again not confiscate there funds and tell them to do one. Anyway this has been a long message so i await your reponse after reviewing the case again chatmaster.

 

[sweetdenny]

P S

Also chatmaster could you alos include exactly what is going to happen to my funds as the fact that at the moment they are in cyber space adn would like to know A where they will end up or B the address of cyber space so i can go and claim them.

 

[joepro]

Hi Webzcas,

Hi Joe. Can you clarify whether Party Poker or 'most other poker sites' allow blatant Chip Dumping, as is the situation that Sweetdenny has admitted to doing on the prima network? Can you also name the poker room or rooms that openly allow chip dumping on their site.

Or is this actually a case of liaising with a poker manager to facilitate the transfer of funds to another player with your written authorisation, therefore no chip dumping actually occurs on the tables.

I do not work for PartyPoker, so I can't be 100% sure that 'blatant Chip Dumping, as is the situation that Sweetdenny has admitted to doing on the prima network' is allowed. What I can tell you is that there are no such provisions in the Terms & Conditions (

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

). Also, since you can transfer money between accounts, via the software, there is no point to engage in such activities.

Someone stated in the thread that a poker room is not a bank and I agree with this, somewhat. PartyPoker has recently introduced restrictions on cashouts where funds have been transfered this way. The player receiving the funds must play in .25x (25%) raked hands for each dollar received.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for PrimaPoker to try and follow in their footsteps, since it would a) generate more rake b) avoid situations such as these.

Joe.

 

[joepro]

Hi Chatmaster,

Quote:
Originally Posted by joepro
a) Loosely written Terms & Conditions
b) Terms & Conditions changed once the terms had been met


The error here normally lies with the Poker room in question and not the entire Prima network. If you feel that Poker333 are guilty of this I would appreciate your feedback. Every time an incident like this happens we learn and I for one like to fix any mistakes we might make.

I agree with you. This was directed at Fortune Lounge, since it's where most of my PrimaPoker action came from. I have unfortunately never played on Poker333.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joepro
c) Software bugs (putting up 2+ BB in a row in MTT tourneys, or skipping blinds altogether for an orbit - this was confirmed as wrong by Lou Krieger in the 'expert' series tournaments) (not sure if this has yet been fixed)


I am not aware of any software bugs with the Prima software, this is a very serious claim and I would like to address this with Prima. I would appreciate it if you could PM me detailed information.

I will PM you with the details as soon as I'm done with this post

Quote:
Originally Posted by joepro
d) Promotions rewarding bonus hunters (to avoid calling them whores). Friends of mine have been awarded Freeroll entries in 100k tournaments because they had not played there since taking advantage of the signup offer. Whereas I would've had to play 3000 raked hands to qualify. Seeing as how I played, backed then, 15 STT's a week, I was not eligible anyways.

Once again a specific poker room (skin) that are responsible for that. Prima do not do these things as these kind of offers are in the hands of the different operators.

Once again, I agree with you. But I'm sure you see how a), b) & d) can potentially reflect badly on the entire network?

Originally Posted by joepro
Also, kindly note that I have an account on 3 different PartyPoker skins, with 3 different aliases. This is not encouraged, it's a requirement! I can't use the same alias on each skin. Why is this appropriate on the largest poker network and not on PrimaPoker? Before you ask why I have 3 accounts, I will tell you. I didn't know about rakeback when I opened the first one. I then opened 2 other ones to get rakeback while 8-tabling.


The reason why Prima is against multiple aliases is simple, and that is one of the reasons I personally don't play anywhere else but Prima. With the Prima network players from the different poker skins play together. What this means is that if I were allowed for example 3 different aliases I can play at a 10 player table with my 3 aliases knowing at least the value of 6 cards before the flop. This increases my odds of winning and beating the other players at the table big time.

Now this confuses me a little. Are you saying that you can play 3 different aliases at the same time, from the same computer, on the same table? Surely, you must not allow people with the same IP to play at the same table? PartyPoker will not allow you to sit at the same table. The only exception is for MTT's.

If this 'scam' requires more than one PC (different MAC address and IP address), then I'm pretty sure someone willing to go that far will be able to borrow or make up identities (gnoming, as the bonuswhores like to call it) to circumvent this limitation.

Therefore, I still don't undestand this rule

The problem at the moment is that everyone are not looking at this from a neutral perspective. I am currently awaiting confirmation and proof of what has taken place here, and until such time shall appreciate it if everyone cool on the issue with sweetdenny. Apart from the fact that Chip dumping is wrong and it is clearly stated in the prima rules i have a suspicion after reading this thread over and over that we do not have the whole story here. I would like forum members to understand although I have received an thorough explanation on what has taken place here I would much rather give full explanation after reviewing the evidence and supplying Bryan with the full details.

Then a final question, I would like to know what other poker rooms do with monies that have been confiscated? Please understand I am curios and would like to know. I am aware that they do confiscate monies and close accounts as well.

Very good question. I unfortunately don't have the answer. Actually, I do. They forwared the monies over to me. Perhaps you can help me reach on agreement with PrimaPoker on this matter?

Joe.

 

[realwtfsup]

You say you are awaiting a full explanation of this case and are going to review the evidence then give Bryan a full explanation of the case. Well how about giving me a full explanation first as i am still awaiting one six months since this started. If you are saying that there is another reason that the funds were frozen other than because of chipdumping which is all i have been told from your poker manager then why is this only gonna be stated now i have been given no other reason than chipdumping and as this isnt in your rules is the reason i am disputing this case. If you have any other evidence in this case it should be presented to me before Bryan as this is good manners you can do this by emailing me direct or pm me here. Or just post it on the forum for all to see. Secondly you ask what other sites do with your funds when they freeze the accounts well they dont confiscate the funds in the accounts of people for a start if fraud has been committed they return it to the players who have been defrauded and monies that have been gained fairly are returned to the players and the account closed the reason sites do not keep money that doesent belong to them is because this is stealing and is a crime (At least it is in the UK cant comment on other countries) as im not that clued up on world law but i do think stealing is a crime in most countries. I also know that sites do not say your funds have dissapeared into cyber space when you ask what has happened to them if you email any sites chatmaster im sure they will be pleased to tell you what there individual policies are. Also when asked what sites will turn a blind eye to people chipdumping heads up with no one else involved i have already stated Ladbrokes i can provide a date and handnumber in which Actionjack (probably ladbrokes most well known player) and another player are chipdumping in exactly the same way as i did to my friend with action jack even typing in the window rasie fold if for one minute anyone thinks ladbrokes are gonna confiscate all of there best known players funds for this i think they will find they are very much mistaken i think at worst they will give a warningn to the players not to do it again not confiscate there funds and tell them to do one. Anyway this has been a long message so i await your reponse after reviewing the case again chatmaster.

Thanks Havn't played at Ladbrokes and will be wary of playing there now.

 

[Chatmaster]

Hi Joepro

Thanks for a very mature post and PM, sure is nice to have you on board. With regards to the multiple aliases. I am sure you are aware of the software that was being discussed a little while ago on 2+2 that where able to play for you automated using multiple aliases. Basically what it means is that the software creates it's own multiple IP addresses and where able to play at the same table, there where specific poker rooms mentioned here and the big one was on the list as well. This was a couple of months ago and I am sure they adressed this problem, I just don't know how. Essentially the problem was that you where able to open the poker room more than once on the same computer and blah blah blah. There where also other software available that did something similar. The point I am making is that Prima's way of ensuring their player's safety is by NOT allowing multiple aliases. Back then I had a lenghty discussion about this with Prima and I was convinced that they are trying to be the safest poker room and that is why they make a point of not allowing multiple aliases. I hope this explains it better. I was basically trying just to give you a sumarised explination hoping you will make use of logic here and there

Sweetdenny, just to make this clear,... You will also receive a full explination and I believe that is logical. On getting your funds back... As I said in my not so private anymore PM I doubt if you will see that money due to the fact that this happened a couple of times and your friend having multiple aliases.

 

[sweetdenny]

And me yet again

Just to clarify i did not post the private message in full till after you had already cut and pasted part of it and said that i was mis qouting you. I felt it was then needed for me to post it all so that i could point out why i was confused. I feel that private messages should stay that way if you do not wish to state your position and name on the on the main board pm me with it and i shall not post it on the board.

 

[Vesuvio]

Ignorance of the law is no defense. You may think that there is "no victim" here, but if Prima poker were to let "chip dumping" rules to be selective in nature, then that would be unfair and unjustifiable. I'll spare you the analogies, but wrong is wrong. Simple as that.

You still seem to be willfully ignoring two points:
1) The poker333 rules don't ban chip dumping
2) The rules hidden in the "help" section of the Prima software are selective. They say the "house" (whoever that refers to) has the option of confiscating funds. So there's no need to bend any rules here at all. Serious cases of chip dumping would be where two players are playing on a table with others - or where one person "dumps" chips to another in a tournament (classical "chip dumping") - or where some sort of fraud has occurred and the players were trying to get around the withdrawal system. Confiscating funds in those circumstances would be reasonable.

If it's none of the above then a reasonable interpretation of their own rules would be to warn the players and/or close the accounts, but to allow them to receive their fairly won/deposited funds. You're right, there is no victim here and there's nothing "unfair" or "unjustifiable" about not creating one.

 

[sweetdenny]

Clarity

Yes vesuvio it all seems pretty clear to myself and u and many others that the funds should never have been confiscated. A little common sense would have went a long way to clear this up. Its now gone way past the common sense stage. There is no point trying to point these simple facts out to certain people as they seem to think its a black and white issue IE chip dumping = rules breaking =take your money and run even though it doesent state this in the rules. Chatmaster is now looking into this with Prima so we will have to wait and see if he brings any news from them other than that i wouldnt waste your time trying to convince others i have tried its futile all i can put this down to is they dont play online poker a lot or thier to miserly to loan friends money Im sure if a casino were to do something like this all hell would break loose but only time will tell if this is gonna get resolved.

 

[Casinomeister]

You still seem to be willfully ignoring two points:
1) The poker333 rules don't ban chip dumping.There are general terms that could be interpreted this way.

2) The rules hidden in the "help" section of the Prima software are selective. They say the "house" (whoever that refers to) has the option of confiscating funds. So there's no need to bend any rules here at all. Serious cases of chip dumping would be where two players are playing on a table with others - or where one person "dumps" chips to another in a tournament (classical "chip dumping") - or where some sort of fraud has occurred and the players were trying to get around the withdrawal system. Confiscating funds in those circumstances would be reasonable.

If it's none of the above then a reasonable interpretation of their own rules would be to warn the players and/or close the accounts, but to allow them to receive their fairly won/deposited funds. You're right, there is no victim here and there's nothing "unfair" or "unjustifiable" about not creating one.

I have responded to these points, questions, issues, and I'm about ready to set up a FAQ specifically for this thread

Please re-read these posts - thanks!
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/search
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/search

 

[sweetdenny]

Time for change

Chatmaster is now trying to contact prima to verify that the facts that i have given are correct and if they are he is then going to try and get them to reverse there decision. Given the fact that even he is now starting to think this is not a clear cut decision and along with all the posts that this thread has generated even you Bryan have to admit that this is not as clear cut as you think. I know you are entitled to your opinion but when this many people are not agreeing with you maybe its time to re-evaluate your standpoint.

 

[catfish4u]

As cross posted from the TwoPlusTwo internet forum:

This should be a major concern for all poker players. Poker rooms and casinos should not look for reasons to confiscate players money. If they were cheating the money should be returned as fairly as possible to the players that were cheated.

In this case no players were cheated. This should have been a two week process where investigations concluded that credit card fraud, cheating nor money laundering was taking place. Unless we are missing some information none of these things were happening. Chip dumping in a tourney should lead to entry fees being forfeited and distributed to the other winning players.

I was not even aware that players could not have multiple prima skin accounts. This can also lead to confiscation of player funds? Sites often change their terms and conditions weekly or at least monthly. Simple T&C violations should not lead to confiscation of funds. Common sense should be utilized and the 'punishment should fit the crime'.

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u

 

[Annorax]

Chatmaster is now trying to contact prima to verify that the facts that i have given are correct and if they are he is then going to try and get them to reverse there decision. Given the fact that even he is now starting to think this is not a clear cut decision and along with all the posts that this thread has generated even you Bryan have to admit that this is not as clear cut as you think. I know you are entitled to your opinion but when this many people are not agreeing with you maybe its time to re-evaluate your standpoint.

Given everything that's happened in this thread and the 2+2 thread, I'd suggest that Prima take the honorable way out, return your money, and then ban you. T&C violations that don't involve fraud or the room losing money (hell, they made money on your rake) shouldn't result in funds confiscations. Banning may be warranted, but not confiscation of your bankroll.

 

[Vesuvio]

I have responded to these points, questions, issues, and I'm about ready to set up a FAQ specifically for this thread

Please re-read these posts - thanks!
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/search
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/search

I'd suggest calling it Frequently Unanswered Questions, but the acronymn's a bit ugly

 

[catfish4u]

Any updates?

 

[nodepositneeded]

Do any Prima sites allow "Inter-account" transfers? I have accounts at most and I don't recall any of them with this feature. If not, why? Inter-account transfers benefit everyone don't they? They keep the money in circulation for the poker room, and allow "friends" to give money to one another. I've seen several people who have $21 in their account but would like to play a $20 + $2 tournament go to a heads up game with someone that is willing to "lose/chip dump" the extra dollar to them so that they can enter the tournament. Perhaps this is in the works for all Prima sites, especially after this thread. Prima sites are my personal favorite (Royal Vegas to be specific) but the lack of Inter-Account transfers are the only thing that is missing in my opinion. I would have to think that with some highly respected rooms like Ultimate Bet, Party Poker, and Absolute offering this that it must benefit the room and the players in some way.
Sorry to add to this post, just felt like throwing in my opinion.

 

[sweetdenny]

Update

The last information on this story is that Chatmaster was going to contact prima and see what he could do on my behalf. Unfortunately he said this could take up to 3 months to get a reply from prima. I have emailed and pm ed Chatmaster in the last couple of weeks but he hasnt replied to either the pm or email maybe casinomeister could tell if he has received the pms from me asking if there is any update.

 

[Casinomeister]

The last information on this story is that Chatmaster was going to contact prima and see what he could do on my behalf. Unfortunately he said this could take up to 3 months to get a reply from prima. I have emailed and pm ed Chatmaster in the last couple of weeks but he hasnt replied to either the pm or email maybe casinomeister could tell if he has received the pms from me asking if there is any update.

No, I don't have access to people's PMs.

 

[sweetdenny]

FAO Chatmaster Poker333

Hi Bryan i pmed you today at the same time as i posted on here but you havent replied to it either so im assuming im doing something wrong when trying to pm people. So ill just ask on here could Chatmaster please let me know if he has heard anything back from Prima the last message i have from you is dated the 1st of July so just wondering if there is any update.

 

[Casinomeister]

Hi Bryan i pmed you today at the same time as i posted on here but you havent replied to it either so im assuming im doing something wrong when trying to pm people. So ill just ask on here could Chatmaster please let me know if he has heard anything back from Prima the last message i have from you is dated the 1st of July so just wondering if there is any update.

Perhaps I was in the middle of something...

Chatmaster has been away for a few days - perhaps he's on vacation.

 

[sweetdenny]

Maybe u were

I dont know if u were in the middle of something or not but as you didnt reply to the pm but posted here i am assuming that i have been at fault. Also your site is saying that Chatmaster has logged onto your site since i Pmed him but not replied to my PM so maybe your right and he is on vacation but likes to read your site while at the poolside and he will reply when he gets back to his desk. Also are you saying you did reveive the PM but have still not replied to it or am i having problems sending PMs if so could you tell me where i am going wrong in sending them.

 

[tim5ny]

i can only assume that he doesent want to rock the boat and lose the freerolls provided by piggs peak.

I haven't read any further yet on this thread.... but I can tell you sweetdenny that you just lit a fire under your own ass with that remark. When Bryan sees it you'd better run for cover because you've just ordered a large can of whoop-ass to be opened on you. Good Luck! ( and I hope you never need his services )