Primapoker funds confiscations (Lucky Nugget Poker and Poker333)

[Vesuvio]

Not really sure what to make of this, but:

1) I don't think having two aliases should be an issue unless they're at the same site. The alias situation is a problem with Prima and confuses/discourages a lot of people from playing there.

2) The fact that the chip dumping occurred two or three times also shouldn't be an issue unless the player was warned not to do it before the final time.

3) There seems to be a problem here in that Chatmaster isn't the manager at Poker333 and therefore doesn't really have the authority to do anything - and Poker333 seem to be hiding behind the "it's up to Prima" excuse. I'm 100% sure large organisations like Ladbrokes or Bet365poker wouldn't allow something that jeopardises their reputation to occur and then claim their hands are tied by Prima Poker.

Unless we're not being told the whole story here and there was some fraud committed it still looks like the players should be given back their funds. I'd a bit confused as to why this has been allowed to drag on for 6 months

 

[sweetdenny]

Chatmaster

I do not knowo what you mean by saying what game am i playing the whole message that you sent is here """""""""""Hi Sweetdenny

Yes Sandy is a very blunt person, I have the world of respect for him because of this and the fact that he is a great person. Also I do not appreciate people lying to me. I am sorry if the thread has moved into a direction that borders insanity, but it is a case where the poker room is at blame for what Prima has done and done rightly so. I openly admitted that we have been at fault in the sense that we do have to put those rules on our website as well although we both know that you were aware that it was illegal to chipdump before you did so. I also would have been more than happy to assist you but the fact that you have made yourself guilty of Chipdumping three times and your friend had 2 aliases makes it impossible for me to do that, I know that from experience. It simply makes you look more guilty. Besides that, Prima can't afford to set double standards and need to look after the well being of all the poker rooms using their skin.""""""""""""" My statement is still the same i do not understand i posted the last message as soon as i read this message and also vesuvio there is no other fraud commited as i have stated over and over poker333 has only given the reason it was chipdumping they have admitted in above message they were at fault but yet are not willing to review this case or to gte prima which is what i am asking i only the skin can contact prima i cant contact prima and they wont.

 

[sweetdenny]

Chatmaster

You state in the final line of your last message i speak for myself yet in your private message you say "" I "" openly admit " we " were at fault now can you see how i am getting confused. So just to clarify this point could you state what your name and position is within poker333 so that i am clear where you are coming from.

 

[Annorax]

3) There seems to be a problem here in that Chatmaster isn't the manager at Poker333 and therefore doesn't really have the authority to do anything - and Poker333 seem to be hiding behind the "it's up to Prima" excuse. I'm 100% sure large organisations like Ladbrokes or Bet365poker wouldn't allow something that jeopardises their reputation to occur and then claim their hands are tied by Prima Poker.

Last I knew, Ladbrokes used the Microgaming software, but wasn't on the Prima network.

 

[Casinomeister]

Well, this thread is beginning to spiral into redundant idiocy. I think that it is perfectly clear that chip dumping is a form of fraudulent play, and fraudulent play is strictly prohibited; it's stated on every Prima Poker site.

Players who knowingly chip dump and get caught shouldn't expect sympathy - it's just your tough luck, and you should not expect any casino or poker room to bend their rules to accommodate you. Get over it already.

What happens to the funds? Well, if you get your deposit back - then there are your funds. Lest we forget - poker rooms are not banks. If you are in a poker room in Vegas and you commit fraud, don't expect to quietly pick up your chips and leave. I know in some cases where collussion has been detected, screwed players receive their lost wagers. I'm not sure what happens in a case like this. The only thing that these players should be entitled to are their deposits. When you commit fraud (yes, it's fraud no matter how many hairs you split) don't expect to be coddled and pampered.

And by the way sweetdenny, a PM is a private message. It's in rather bad taste to start publishing PMs without the sender's permission. Please don't use this message board as a form of arm twisting.

 

[Vesuvio]

Casinomeister - agreed that sweetdenny's once more going about things completely the wrong way... but you can't be committing fraud unless you're trying to gain a financial advantage. Chip dumping on its own doesn't - in fact usually only the poker room will make money through the rake (yes, I know the rake can sometimes be avoided). If the players were committing fraud and using chip dumping to escape checks on their play then I wouldn't have any sympathy with them, but as far as we know that wasn't the case.

I still think you're splitting more hairs trying to claim this is fraud and clearly pointed out at every Prima site (if it was then why do they feel the need to refer to "chip dumping" separately within the software? - in fact I've just gone to Poker333 and there's no general comment about fraud, only the statement about collusion you used before which very clearly refers to players colluding to win money from others). There's no need to bend any rules as even the rules hidden within the software only talk of possible actions at their discretion.

I can understand your annoyance at some of the posts on this thread, but you can't get around the fact there is a real issue here.

 

[Vesuvio]

Last I knew, Ladbrokes used the Microgaming software, but wasn't on the Prima network.

Cheers! I always just assumed they must share the network too, but they're not listed at www.primapoker.com, so you must be right.

 

[sweetdenny]

Casinomeister

I did not post the full pm till after chatmaster had posted half of it i did not post the full message originally for the reason you state its meant to be private. I only posted the full message after he asked what sort of game am i playing so that it was clearly stated where the confusion has arisen he is stating that he and we were at fault then going on to say i misquoted him a lot of your forum members want this resolved and for casinomeister or a member of the casino to explain clearly what happens to the funds everyone and you now say the deposits should at least be returned but they havent. As vesuvio states the rules dont need mending the majority and even chatmaster says they werent there. You would nail any other casino for this but what have you got against me. The very least i deserve is for all the points to be cleared up once and for all. You say the thread is nearly past its sell by date but there is a lot of questions need answering and not for my benefit but a lot of others. This forum is the only place i can get the points addressed as sandy koor started ignoring my emails when this first happened. The emails basically just told me to get lost and he refused to answer any of the points i ahve brought up here this is when the statement the funds have dissapeared into cyber space was handed out to me regardless of what u think of me or this case you have to agree speaking to customers all be it ex customers is not acceptable.

 

[kavaman]

my point of view

This is a difficult issue. This time my view on the issue is a bit different then CM. I mostly agree with vesuvio that if its not mentioned in the terms and conditions of the poker room, your money should not be confiscated.

Like vesuvio explained many poker rooms allow you to transfer funds to other people with inter account transfers at the poker rooms. I think it is "somewhat similar" to chip dumping if chip dumping is made on a private table.

Usually chip dumping is forbidden at poker rooms, but if the terms and conditions do not state it, i dont know. Playing in the same table with your friend and communicating with him via msn, phone and so on to play against other players is much more serious issue then chip dumping.

If this was an issue with a casino, and the player had met all the casino terms and conditions and didn't have any kind of fraudulent activity in his account all of us would be saying its the casino who should honor their terms and conditions.

-kavaman

 

[eichmann]

For once i think the CasinoMeister may have it wrong, ChipDumping in itself is not fraud. A fraud must have a victim. If the chip dumping was in order to launder money from a credit card fraud or collusion then there is a victim and the chipdump is part of that fraud. If the chipdump was just a means of transferring money between two players it is not fraud but it would appear it is against the rules ,although it seems little or no effort is made to make these rules known. I found some rules from PRIMA in an earlier post on this thread Alias


"The following rules apply:

Chip Dumping

Chip dumping is not allowed, and may result in the following:

* Players being disqualified and removed from the game.

* Players forfeiting all buy-in amounts.

* Players being permanently banned from the Multi-Player Casino."

now these rules state that ChipDumping "MAY" result in one of these actions , and it would seem the word "MAY " and the choice of options are clearly there so that individual cases can be assessed on their own merits. With these choices of options it would seem unjustified for PRIMA to seize winnings/chips without being prepared to say some fraud has taken place. I also note that these rules dont mention confiscating winnings but buy-ins

PRIMA seem to want us to believe that the attitude of all online cardrooms to ChipDumping is the same outrage they want to portray, however i dont think another card room would be worried about it if no fraud was involved. Pokerstars where i play daily allow interplayer transfers in the tens of thousands of dollars and normally perform them in less than an hour. In the field of gambling where borrowing and lending goes with the territory PRIMA can only expect players to try and transfer money that way while they provide no method of inter player transfer.

On the issue of multiple aliases some other poker sites are also very tolerant of this and understand fully that some players need to play under new aliases when their playing style becomes known.

I don't know if there is more involved to this case than has been stated here but it does look like a case of PRIMA seizing the money "because they can"

If there is no victim there is no reason for PRIMA to seize the money and no reason for them to add it into their profits

 

[scrollock]

with chip dumping you can have 2 scenarios

scenario 1)

2 players who are friends and who regularly spend 1,000's per month (probably a hell of a lot more due to recycling money), one of them runs out of cash and both go to an empty table to "chip dump" a loan

scenario 2)

2 players join a poker site, play a minimal amout of games and then goto a empty table and "chip dump" an amout that far exceeds what either has played.

scenario 1) is purely innocent and it is for this reason that some sites sensibly allow direct player transfers

scenario 2) is clearly a case of money laundering, and appropiate action should be taken

however as the situation stands, some casinos do not discrimate between the 2 scenarios, and take advantage to use the all inclusive term of "chip dumping" to indiscrimatly take funds as it will be be to the pokerrooms financial advantage.

 

[GrandMaster]

scenario 2) is clearly a case of money laundering, and appropiate action should be taken

It is only money laundering if the money comes from illegal sources.

 

[mitch]

On a number of threads we see the same arguements.

Player clearly breaches a casinos T&Cs with possible fraudulent intent. Player gets caught. Player comes to Forum pleading innocence and giving his version of events which surprise surprise does not involve cheating and how its all only a mistake etc etc.

A lot of forum members then jump on said casino and declare that the player should be paid unless the casino can disprove the players statements and intentions.

I have posted before that casinos only have the facts to go on. They don't have a crystal ball neither can they realistically be expected to employ investigators to check out players statements. Members who support this player should ask themselves do they really expect cheaters to admit guilt when caught or do they expect that they would come up with a plausible tale?

In this case the player admits colluding with another player. Do poker playing members feel that casinos should crack down hard on all instances of proven player collusion. I certainly want them to!

The casino takes its rake notwithstanding, it's other players who are being fleeced by people who are prepared to collude. I would not want to play at a casino that was blase about collusion, no matter what form it took.

This players partner is also using multiple names. No doubt he has some explanations none of which would be that it helps to avoid being suspected of colluding by other players, who might notice the same two names cropping up on tables fairly often!

I don't know the truth of this matter and I am not likely to find out.
What I and other members do know (and only know for certain) is that this person is prepared to collude and that he has clearly breached T&Cs he freely signed upto with this casino and which give the casino the right to act against said player.

Finally, for supporters of this person, if he and his partner turned up at a table you were playing would you be content to play. Of course you could always ask him on chat whether everything was above board and when he replied 'certainly' no doubt that would clear any possible doubts, people don't lie when money is involved after all do they?

Mitch

 

[Mart]

Player clearly breaches a casinos T&Cs with possible fraudulent intent.

Except it isn't in the terms and conditions.

A lot of forum members then jump on said casino and declare that the player should be paid unless the casino can disprove the players statements and intentions.

No, I'm saying he should be paid if the facts as presented are correct, as far as the casino is concerned.

Members who support this player should ask themselves do they really expect cheaters to admit guilt when caught or do they expect that they would come up with a plausible tale?

No, but the tale is hardly difficult to check now is it? Were they heads up, and have all their deposits cleared ok?

In this case the player admits colluding with another player. Do poker playing members feel that casinos should crack down hard on all instances of proven player collusion. I certainly want them to!

The casino takes its rake notwithstanding, it's other players who are being fleeced by people who are prepared to collude.

Heads up chip dumping is hardly collusion. Explain how other players are being fleeced here?

This players partner is also using multiple names. No doubt he has some explanations none of which would be that it helps to avoid being suspected of colluding by other players, who might notice the same two names cropping up on tables fairly often!

Again if they are playing on the same tables this is easy for the casino to check.

For what it's worth, I am not particularly a "supporter" here. I don't have the full facts so I'm keeping an open mind about it. But what I object to is that any casino being able to levy "fines" of $1K+. They may not be a bank, but they sure are hell aren't a court of law either. And to be honest if you applied your "where there's smoke there's fire" type reasoning to Prima you'd find it hard to support any of their account freezing decisions.

Martin

 

[buck]

Chip Dumping

I can't understand this whole thread. But why would anyone to transfer funds between andother party via this method.

Almost all of us have Neteller accounts and transfers can be made easily between users.

I think the orginal party got caught and is trying to use this lame execuse.

Buck

 

[sweetdenny]

Another clear up

(1) I did not have neteller at that time this week i am in the process of getting it verified . (2) All deposits have cleared ok my account is 100 % legit im sure they have checked and prima can find no evidence of any fraud on my account. (3) We have never colluded against other players by playing partners im sure again prima has checked this and would have said if they found anything not quite right. (4) My friend ended up with 2 aliases as he signed up at two sites not knowing they were linked and this was not allowed again i have not played with his other alias again i have not colluded with this alias either (5) The only reason i have been given for the fund confiscation is that it was chipdumping which A is not mentioned in poker333 rules and they have admitted they were at fault over this and B it is mentioned in primas rules but does not say all funds will be confiscated. I have given all the facts in this case as they are, whoever said casinomeister may have been wrong over his decision on this i have to say it is his opinion and he is allowed it. It has been said i went about things the wrong way well that may be true but i am speaking after being ignored by poker333 support for months and may have vented my frustration at the wrong people for this i apologise. I have asked casinomeister to review his position on this case as a lot of posters have brought up valid points and have re inforced my view that i am being un fairly dealt with here i hope to here from Bryan soon as to whether he can look into this again.

 

[Webzcas]

Sweetdenny how long exactly have you been playing poker online? Also how long have you been playing at prima poker rooms for?

The reason I ask is, if you have been playing there for a while, regardless whether the poker room website mentioned chipdumping being illegal, you would have known this to be the case nevertheless. An assumption on my part, but if you are into online poker, you must frequent the forums and not just this one and would have picked this up.

 

[sweetdenny]

Webzcas

I have been playing online for a few years now at various sites which all either allow cash transfers to other players or allow chipdumping on tables with just the 2 of u. They do not allow money laundering but this is not what happened here and they certainly do not confiscate all someones money and tell them the money has dissapeared into cyber space. I have played prima network a very few times as i have frequented forum boards and have been told prima is not a good network so should have stayed away but i gave them the benefit of the doubt really wishing i hadnt now. Regardless of how long i have been playing online this shouldnt have any baring on this case as it does not state in poker333 rules that chipdumping is an offense that will end up in your funds being confiscated. In all the years of playing online and reading the forums the only site that i have ever heard confiscating all of someones account is prima and to be honest the only other case i can think of is that is pokergirls 60k which he has now had to get his lawyer involved but that was due to someone using a stolen card or ill gained funds which is a million miles away from what has happened to me.

 

[Webzcas]

other case i can think of is that is pokergirls 60k

That was on Captain Cook's, I remember commenting on it at the time.

 

[Webzcas]

One thing Sweetdenny. You obviously know about what happened to Poker Girl, who is one of the more successfull and high profile online poker players. How come you then chipdumped on a prima portal when you were aware of what happened to Poker Girl?

I am of the view that the money should be returned to the individuals concerned once all security checks have been carried out and completed to Prima's and Poker333's satisfaction. If it is not, a clear explanation should be given as to the reason why. However you were caught taking part in an activity i.e Chipdumping which you have now admitted you knew is not allowed on a prima site. ( Your admission to knowing about Pokergirl's situation proves this )

I have no sympathy with the situation you find yourself in as a result.

 

[realwtfsup]

I have been playing online for a few years now at various sites which all either allow cash transfers to other players or allow chipdumping on tables with just the 2 of u. They do not allow money laundering but this is not what happened here and they certainly do not confiscate all someones money and tell them the money has dissapeared into cyber space. I have played prima network a very few times as i have frequented forum boards and have been told prima is not a good network so should have stayed away but i gave them the benefit of the doubt really wishing i hadnt now. Regardless of how long i have been playing online this shouldnt have any baring on this case as it does not state in poker333 rules that chipdumping is an offense that will end up in your funds being confiscated. In all the years of playing online and reading the forums the only site that i have ever heard confiscating all of someones account is prima and to be honest the only other case i can think of is that is pokergirls 60k which he has now had to get his lawyer involved but that was due to someone using a stolen card or ill gained funds which is a million miles away from what has happened to me.

What sites allow chip dumping?

You have been playing online several years and do not know that chip dumping would be wrong?

My BS meter is on full tilt now.

 

[Webzcas]

From the help page of the Poker333 Software.

Chip Dumping

Chip dumping is not allowed, and may result in the following:

Players being disqualified and removed from the game.
Players forfeiting all buy-in amounts.
Players being permanently banned from the Multi-Player Casino.

Note:
These decisions are at the discretion of the House.

Like realwtfsup, I would also like to know which poker rooms allow chip dumping. I know some may assist in transferring of funds to other players behind the scenes, subject to players involved providing their authorisation. But I do not know of any poker room that allows chipdumping on their sites. If you could provide examples that would be great as I would like to contact them direct and find out what their policies regarding chip dumping are. I feel it is important for all players to know this information.

 

[trade]

What sites allow chip dumping?

You have been playing online several years and do not know that chip dumping would be wrong?

My BS meter is on full tilt now.

Geez! Give the guy a break. In retrospect, he didn't use common sense when dumping/ donating/ transferring his chips over, but common sense also makes me conclude that if he thought there was a remote chance the money was going to be confiscated that he would not have taken that risk. He was naive.. don't hang him out to dry because he made a mistake. There were 2 people involved, no one else was put at risk or harmed. Any investigation would prove that. As far as his friend having 2 aliases, when I first registered at Poker333, I tried to register a different alias, thinking I was supposed to do that when I was told I must set up a new account. I had only played at one other prima, and did not know how the network worked at the time... i.e. that when at prima, there are many different sites that people enter through. People make mistakes. Casinos have forgiven mistakes if they are obvious that nothing untoward was intended. eg. people who don't make the playthrough requirements when using bonuses properly... the less reputable casinos might use this as an excuse to confiscate funds, the others return the funds to the account and clearly explain the playthrough requirements. I realize this case is different, and in no way am I insinuating poker 333 is nothing less than reputable, but perhaps a bit rigid (whether that is coming from poker 333 or prima). In this case, it would be preferable if the original funds were returned to each player's accounts and have it explained that what they did is not allowed, so they don't make the same mistake twice. I hope this case is reconsidered.

 

[Casinomeister]

Like realwtfsup, I would also like to know which poker rooms allow chip dumping. I know some may assist in transferring of funds to other players behind the scenes, subject to players involved providing their authorisation. But I do not know of any poker room that allows chipdumping on their sites. If you could provide examples that would be great as I would like to contact them direct and find out what their policies regarding chip dumping are. I feel it is important for all players to know this information.

Good point. These two (experienced) players - who had known that Prima has taken action against players chip-dumping before - should have asked ahead of time whether or not they could transfer funds. You don't mess around with your real money accounts.

Chip dumping has never been tolerated/allowed in any Prima Poker poker room. Beats me why this is even an issue for discussion.

And this was never a "case" in the first place. The player admitted that he chipdumped from the git-go.

In retrospect, he didn't use common sense when dumping/ donating/ transferring his chips over, but common sense also makes me conclude that if he thought there was a remote chance the money was going to be confiscated that he would not have taken that risk. He was naive.. don't hang him out to dry because he made a mistake. There were 2 people involved, no one else was put at risk or harmed. Any investigation would prove that.

Ignorance of the law is no defense. You may think that there is "no victim" here, but if Prima poker were to let "chip dumping" rules to be selective in nature, then that would be unfair and unjustifiable. I'll spare you the analogies, but wrong is wrong. Simple as that.

 

[kavaman]

allowed maybe not

Yes. I do agree with meister that if they knew they might be doing something wrong they shouldn't have done it.

However i still think that it is not a clear case. As chip dumping was NOT mentioned in the terms of the poker room. If this was about a casino and the player would do something that the casino:s terms and conditions dont have and the casino voided his winnings what would we all say then?

-kavaman