Pricewaterhouse to pay$50million settlement (can we say fraud)

[bethug]

This is why u cant not trust any accounting firm , that getting paid buy a casino to tell you the games or the payout is fair.

PricewaterhouseCoopers, the biggest U.S. accounting firm, will pay $50 million to settle a lawsuit filed by Raytheon Co. investors claiming that the auditor approved misleading Raytheon financial statements.

Raytheon this month agreed to pay $410 million to settle the shareholders' lawsuit against the company. Pricewaterhouse said it didn't admit liability in resolving the case.

Shareholders began filing lawsuits against Raytheon after the company said Oct. 12, 1999, that it would take pretax charges of $638 million, sending its shares down 44% that day.

The shares rose 35 cents to $32.94 on the New York Stock Exchange before news of the settlement was released.

 

[dirk_dangerous]

The PWC seal of approval is worthless. Software firms could easily cook the data that PWC receives. And how hard would it be to bribe PWC? Corporate corruption is rampant in South Africa. Both Microgaming and the PWC firm that verifies Microgamings fairness are located in South Africa.

I trust Microgaming and PWC about as much as I would trust a pedophile to baby-sit my children.

Until these fly-by-night online casinos are regulated by a first world government agency, you must assume youre being cheated.

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[cipher]

The PWC seal of approval is worthless. Software firms could easily cook the data that PWC receives. And how hard would it be to bribe PWC? Corporate corruption is rampant in South Africa. Both Microgaming and the PWC firm that verifies Microgamings fairness are located in South Africa.

I trust Microgaming and PWC about as much as I would trust a pedophile to baby-sit my children.

Until these fly-by-night online casinos are regulated by a first world government agency, you must assume youre being cheated.

Old / Expired Link

We've been looking forward with great anticipation to the release of this news for quite some time now and are currently exploring avenues against MG casinos as well as PriceWaterhouse Coopers.

 

[caruso]

Those ridiculous "payment reports" were an obvious put-on job from the word go - I never paid them no never mind, even in my earliest, most gullibile forrays into the casino game, and I can't believe anyone else ever took them for anything other than the con they are.

PWC clearly rubber stamp anything for a buck. What ridiculous, rampant corruption this business is founded on.

 

[dirk_dangerous]

What ridiculous, rampant corruption this business is founded on.

Amen brother!

I can't figure out why "recreational gamblers" would play at online casinos. There are far too many hassles, even if the casino is fair.

I can only assume that there is no such thing as a "recreational gambler"--there are only gambling addicts. And gambling addicts don't care where they play, how much the lose or whether the games are fair or not. They just need to beat themselves up emotionally and psychologically by losing money. Its sad really.

 

[jyde]

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Denmark is ranked 3rd after Finland and Iceland South Africa is is ranked 48 (just before Costa Rica). In all fairness it should be mentioned that South Africa scores better than a couple of EU-members like Greece and Poland

 

[eek]

I was an auditor for about 5 years, working with onshore and offshore stuff.

I would never really rely on an audit report, and I would never use it as a basis for somewhere to put my cash, whether its an online casino or an investment fund.

The audit contract that the client signs with an audit firm, reads like a huge disclaimer of responsibility for the accounting firm.
The main reason is that experienced and determined senior management can circumvent an auditor without too much difficulty.

 

[Sodax77]

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Denmark is ranked 3rd after Finland and Iceland South Africa is is ranked 48 (just before Costa Rica). In all fairness it should be mentioned that South Africa scores better than a couple of EU-members like Greece and Poland

I heard about that list in news, last year. Interesting that all Scandinavian countries are ranked in top 8 (Finland, Iceland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway). I like that number one

(You can send me money, directly to my neteller account, so i can update that page... , [Your Counry rank # x $100])

(Or i can create own page )

 

[jetset]

An interesting find on what appears to be a "first world nation" issue, Bethug.

Nevertheless, because this is obviously being used by the usual suspects as a stick with which to beat eCOGRA I have asked Price Waterhouse Coopers to comment. This entity is a multi national group with some 160 000 employees based around the world. Hardly a small "developing nation" company.

Cipher, when you say "we" to whom are you referring in this putative action?

 

[dirk_dangerous]

Jetset, you have to look at this from the players POV. I dont see how anyone can expect the players to trust a casino watchdog organization thats been set up by the largest casino SW provider on the internet.

Yes its good PR, and maybe Ecogra is doing exactly what they say they do, but the Microgaming connection is certainly more than enough reason for reasonable people to be skeptical.

Frankly, I think that you, Bryan and Spear are too close to Microgaming to see the player concerns. I dont mean that in a negative way, but each of you, for your own reasons, trusts Microgaming and that trust biases your opinion.

Many players do not have the same trust.

I'll say once again, my distrust of Microgaming has come from my playing results with their software. IMO, Microgaming has no one to blame but themselves.

 

[bethug]

Excellent post, Dirk. A few webmasters get gifts and perks from some of this casinos.(they become loyal and blind) I am a player and I am for the player. A few casinos try to get sway me there way. But you cant be me unless it over 3 million

 

[eek]

Three million?

I'll turn to the dark side for two million.(negotiable to 500k)

 

[dirk_dangerous]

Excellent post, Dirk. A few webmasters get gifts and perks from some of this casinos.(they become loyal and blind) I am a player and I am for the player. A few casinos try to get sway me there way. But you cant be me unless it over 3 million

Just to clarify, I dont want anyone to think Im implying that Bryan, Jet and Spear have been bribed by any SW provider. I dont believe that. I do believe that each of these men is as honest and objective as a webmaster/industry person can be in this putrid industry.

However, my point is that each of them has developed a close relationship with Microgaming, and that close relationship is part of their basis for trusting Microgaming.

Players have no such relationship with Microgaming and have not developed that same trust. In fact, the opposite has occurred--many players have a deep distrust of Microgaming and that distrust is based on their results at Microgaming casinos.

And I would also bet low 5 figures that the three of these men put together have put in less action at Microgaming casinos than I or many other individuals have. They simply do not understand the players perspective when it comes to opinions on SW fairness.

 

[bethug]

I believe all three of them has done a great Job in helping people, it just when a webmaster that get perks from micro casinos, tell you it not fixed or cough up your results that bother me. Also i dont think non of them plays black jack everyday like my self and others.

I have said this in the pass.
micro got rich off of rigged games, now they can afford to go straight, from all the money they taken.

rtg casinos start off thinking they can give the same bonus and failed, why there games not rigged.

let me say this all the above is the way i think.

 

[spearmaster]

Frankly, I think that you, Bryan and Spear are too close to Microgaming to see the player concerns.

Unfortunately, you are wrong. I continue to give Microgaming a lot of stick when I think something is wrong, but most of this is done behind the scenes as public discussion is not justified.

And I would also bet low 5 figures that the three of these men put together have put in less action at Microgaming casinos than I or many other individuals have. They simply do not understand the players perspective when it comes to opinions on SW fairness.

Can't speak for the other two here but putting in less action at Microgaming casinos has no bearing upon understanding SW fairness. If you put in 100 mil of action and I put in 99 mil, does that mean I don't understand the player's perspective?

I think you underestimate all three of us. Especially disappointing for me because I consider my knowledge of players and their thoughts second to none.

Regarding perks - first of all, there haven't been any perks for two years as far as I am concerned. Secondly, the "perk" you are talking about was never, has never been seen to be anything but a desire for Jackpot Madness to give some of us access to the first Internet millionaire, for which I was indeed grateful.

That does not allow our glasses to be colored (well, at least not mine - and I got new progressive lenses yesterday). Trust me - every software manufacturer has faults - every company has faults. And I shall continue to call it like I see it as I have done since day one - the mere fact that some of you cannot respect this is enough to make one wanna go crazy sometimes.

 

[The Dude]

Hi all,

Like what Spear said, I don't think a lot of you see what is going on behind the scenes. One thing, my closeness to Micro is no closer than RTG. The reason that it may appear that I am closer to Micro is that I don't endorse non-licensed casinos - RTG knows this and so do most of their operators - and thus there are no RTGs listed here.

As for perks? A complimentary Merecedes parked in my car port would be a perk - I drive a Ford. I don't consider being invited to a gathering that allows people to form a better working relationship and offer information as a "perk".

To imply that I am out of touch with the player is a bit off-kilter. In fact, I'm probably more in touch with players than anyone else except perhaps Spear. I spend most of my working hours answering emails, assisting players solving problems, catching up with industry news, and administrating this forum. How much more "in contact" can I be? Dirk and Bethug, answer me this: what do you do to "feel the pulse" of the player besides visiting some message boards?

And I would also bet low 5 figures that the three of these men put together have put in less action at Microgaming casinos than I or many other individuals have. They simply do not understand the players perspective when it comes to opinions on SW fairness.

That would be a bad bet for you I believe. I know Spear plays at most of the casinos listed at his site, and I play daily as well. Some of my more successful days have been reported here; https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/winner-screenshots.4193/?t=4193
I have my bad days, but I don't talk them much And like I mentioned it before - I think BJ sucks and I don't play it.

I dont see how anyone can expect the players to trust a casino watchdog organization thats been set up by the largest casino SW provider on the internet.

eCOGRA is not a casino watchdog. I am - in fact probably the only one. If you would have read my last newsletter, you'd know where I stand on this. You won't find eCOGRA reporting on trademark violation issues, or alerting players on deceptive spam scams, or notifying players on software that REALLY cheats (read COA). This is what I do. eCOGRA has their place in the big picture; to offer player assurance by implementing and enforcing detailed criteria to their member casinos. No one else does this. What more do you want?

And what is there not to trust? If General Motors started up eCOGRA, most of the naysayers would be shouting "conspiracy! scam!" from the top of their soap boxes anyway. Most of these folks seem to be distrustful by nature.

 

[spearmaster]

In fact, I'm probably more in touch with players than anyone else except perhaps Spear.

If anything, it's the other way around - you are in touch with far more players than I am.

But I do have a very fine feel for the player's side of things because that is what I am, first and foremost - a player (or at least I used to be). I move about in industry circles both online and land-based and hear stories and cases of all shapes and sizes. I make it a point to go out of my way to visit land based casinos as well (case in point - the newly-open Las Vegas Sands in Macau, two days after it opened) to observe and watch players, layouts, types of games, etc.

If anything, Dirk, I would daresay that I am way more in touch with things than you are because I make it my job to do so.

 

[Sodax77]

It's hard to write my opinion, because i don't speak good english. But my point is that there are always big scandal like Parma, Enron, etc, and who protect their customers? In many cases, nobody...but lawyers. And i see PWC in totally different aspect. Quite fair. Maybe i'm wrong, or not, but that is only my opinion.
Old / Expired Link

And about online casino business, who protect if there is something unfair or fraud (casino vs customers)? Again, in many cases nobody. But i see one place, where i trust, where i see action, if there is something fraud or unfair about Casinos vs. their customers. And i think you know that place: Casinomeister
And best thing is, that you can open your mouth here, if you see unfair/fraud action about some Casino/group, even it is Casinomeisters reputable casino or not. Do i write this same post to Ecogra forum? But...
btw, where is their forum?

Thanks Casinomeister

 

[cipher]

An interesting find on what appears to be a "first world nation" issue, Bethug.

Nevertheless, because this is obviously being used by the usual suspects as a stick with which to beat eCOGRA I have asked Price Waterhouse Coopers to comment. This entity is a multi national group with some 160 000 employees based around the world. Hardly a small "developing nation" company.

Cipher, when you say "we" to whom are you referring in this putative action?

Hi Jet;

As you know Jet, I'm able to rely on some pretty substantial individuals and organizations with backgrounds in Law and Investigations. For the last couple of years "we" (those individuals, organizations and myself cumulatively) have endeavored to keep very close tabs on what "we" consider to be a MG/PWC charade.

I'd be very interested to hear any new comment that PRICE WATERHOUSE COOPERS might have to offer. Though I seriously doubt that it would be anything short of the same banter that has been offered by them in the past.

Good to hear from you Jet. Have a good one.

 

[Sodax77]

And if i continue. Of course i don't mean that Ecogra, etc don't solve anything. But here many things are public. And after all, even Casinos/groups like VPL, FL, etc, can't say, that it is Casinomeister, Bryan Bailey's (etc.) job to solve these problems (if something fraud/unfair action). And btw, same thing, if player cheat casino, or something like that (unfair action...). And i know, that many players appreciate when Bryan or someone solve these problems, but i think, some casinos, players, etc, don't care at all. Casinomeister is not some global-super-mega company, it is:
https://www.casinomeister.com/about-us/



(sorry my "etc"'s, lol... when i don't know some word or can't translate, i use that. And sometimes this: Outdated URL (Invalid) )

 

[jetset]

Dirk, we go back a long time to when I really appreciated your balanced, informative and reasonable posts and read them with care.

But in more recent times you sound increasingly like DaveR, another man who's gambling expertise I definitely respect but who's unproved and almost totally unbalanced allegations and views on various issues I have come to distrust and largely reject for lack of evidence and way too much personal conjecture.

I hate to say this and I do not like to be impolite, but imo you have no idea of what goes on behind the scenes in getting player issues resolved in this business by the very people that you accuse of being "too close" to various software suppliers.

We're talking about hundreds of cases that do not become high profile issues but are nevertheless resolved to the benefit of the player...and we lose some of them too, because all players are not above board in the same way that some casinos are way better than others. Software providers, too.

That's apart from the considerable personal effort we devote to investigating the bad bastards out there and warning players through publicity, too.

No fanfare or expectation of reward from either side - just putting something back into the industry, which the cynical seem to have a hard job understanding.

That is not accomplished by raving on the message boards making unfounded allegations, denigrating trust and actively encouraging a growing chasm between the two most important and interdependent parts of the business - players and casinos.

There are enough naysayers out there and I fear you have become one of them, with the concomitant danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

We take the time to talk to the key people regardless of provider who can make things happen and hopefully improve the industry, travelling at our own expense and most of all time to events in order to interact with all aspects and learn more about the other side, and maintaining communication links that invariably turn out to be of use in player issues.

Sometimes we have achieved resolutions without the player even being aware of some behind-the-scenes "heads ups" to the right people who have a real commitment to good business practices.

To say that we are too far removed from the player's POV is overstating the case to put it mildly. Most of us are not only regularly in private comms with disgruntled players, but are here and on other good boards every day trying to learn, give an alternative perspective and help. And I believe that we have a right to express sometimes conflicting opinions without in any way being accused of not being close to player interests.

You can guarantee one thing - the three of us have always tried to give an honestly held opinion, and sometimes that is desirable to counter-balance some of the unreasonable rants that are posted.

You need to consider your own position here imo. What is your real motive for trashing eCOGRA so vehemently along with Caruso? You seem totally resolved to dismiss this substantial initiative as a mere Microgaming inspired PR stunt despite the compelling evidence to the contrary that is steadily evolving. And how productive to the player is it to have an admitted trash policy every time the eCOGRA name appears - does the player community win in this sort of personal pissing contest, and what useful alternatives are you proposing?

I think Spear and Bryan have very eloquently expressed everything else I have to say on this.

Let's just remember that there are other views on most issues, and that some of your own opinions can be plain wrong.

 

[jetset]

Hi Jet;

As you know Jet, I'm able to rely on some pretty substantial individuals and organizations with backgrounds in Law and Investigations. For the last couple of years "we" (those individuals, organizations and myself cumulatively) have endeavored to keep very close tabs on what "we" consider to be a MG/PWC charade.

I'd be very interested to hear any new comment that PRICE WATERHOUSE COOPERS might have to offer. Though I seriously doubt that it would be anything short of the same banter that has been offered by them in the past.

Good to hear from you Jet. Have a good one.

I sure do appreciate your take on what is right and what is wrong, together with your legal capabilities in the cases against Virtual and more recently Hamptons, Cipher.

I believe you rendered a wider and valuable service to the industry as well as yourself in both of those issues, and in other useful but non-litigative inputs you have made on the message boards.

I will therefore watch for your announcements and look forward to reporting in our bulletins the progress of your litigative attempts focused on Microgaming and Pricewaterhouse Coopers after the long investigation into the "charade" you refer to - it will no doubt make fascinating reading.

I have commented on the PwC issue in the USA elsewhere on this message board - thus far PwC have not responded to me with an official comment.

You have a good one, too!

 

[sw2003]

Three million?

I'll turn to the dark side for two million.(negotiable to 500k)

No, no, no! I will only turn to the dark side for USD 10 million, not a cent less!
Ok 10 million Pound Sterling also accepted!
You are asking me to compromise my otherwise impeccable unblemished
integrity, I won't do it for less!

 

[RobWin]

Im just curious if anyone else out there has proof that eCOGRA was not set up by associates/members of the Microgaming company... it was awhile before they had two other software providers that were not Microgaming ? This would be a definitive question to have answered... it always seems that anytime a question of this nature arises the affiliates want the players to show proof that there is a connection between the two.... I want to know if there are any affiliates of microgaming out there that can show proof that eCOGRA was not set up by associates/members of the Microgaming company ?

Bryan you said "eCOGRA is not a casino watchdog." Question: If this is true, then what is its exact purpose if not to be a watchdog and regulate this online gaming industry ?

Bryan you also said "You won't find eCOGRA reporting on trademark violation issues, or alerting players on deceptive spam scams, or notifying players on software that REALLY cheats" Question: If eCOGRA is not going to "notify players on software that REALLY cheats" then again how are they helping us players... ?

Another question Bryan, you said that "eCOGRA has their place in the big picture; to offer player assurance by implementing and enforcing detailed criteria to their member casinos." Question: ... by implementing and enforcing detailed criteria to their member casinos... How is this helping us players... could you please elaborate on this statement.

It seems to me that if you really think about it, this is the very reason that the largest land based casino country in the world " The USA " did not want to try and tackle all the problems they knew would arise from trying to regulate online gambling based out of third world countries...IMHO

Thanks for your response ........

 

[spearmaster]

Where did anyone say that Microgaming didn't have a hand in the establishment of eCOGRA? They are a founding member along with Cassava and certainly they have played a role. I should think this is completely unquestionable.

As for the rest - will leave it to whom it was addressed towards.