# Pre Determined Results for multi choice games?

#### love2winalot

##### Dormant account
Hiya: I do not want to highjack 4 of a kind thread so i started this one. Some Table games offer you a wide range of choices to bet on. All of these games have a B&M counterpart. A lot of players will bring their B&M bet selection method On Line with them, since it is suppose to be the same. "It is not the same".

So, I as a software provider, want to build in a few ways to insure that most players will at some point Lose a lot of money when playing my game. Thus, the, 'Results are Predetermined", idea. So, How would I do this? I assume that the first paragraph is correct. Then I use my software and emply countermeasures, based on that therory.

Example:
0/00, 1/2, 13/14, 35/36. These 8 numbers, "american roulette" are together on opposite sides of the wheel, in groups of 4 each. They are together on the layout in groups of 2 each. meaning you can use 1 chip, and bet 2 numbers at a time. V-O-T, and other ways of betting numbers together on the wheel are also used. WHY?

Because, you have a wheel spinning in one direction, and a ball spinning in the opposite direction, and a different release point by the dealer, and reflectors on the wheel. These things together provide the, "Random" part of Roulette in a B&M casino. This means that the Ball will end up landing in different locations across the wheel. Not evenly, but pretty much spread out. meaning that it will land on one of the 2 area's of the wheel you have bets on at a reasonable point in time.

With a RNG, there is NO ball, and NO wheel. Therefore, I would program a part of the sequence, to, "MISS" those 2 parts of the wheel in a streak that is long enough to take your bankroll away from you. And others like it. I would make RED hit 10 times in a row, and later BLACK would hit 10 times in a row. I would make the first DOZEN miss 20 times in a row, and make the THIRD dozen hit 9 times in a row, and so on.

What I just did, was take every betting pattern, "used my most players", and installed a Countermeasure to that pattern. SO, no matter how you Bet, my RNG has a predetermined sequence that will stop you from winning.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of people think this is pretty much what happens. It can be, Roulette, it can be BJ, it can be ANYTHING. This of course then means that at least, "Part", of the game is not Random at all. So we have post after post after post, saying, "I keep betting THIS, and when i have Won some, the game starts doing, THAT, and i Lose".

Maybe my definition is not exactly accurate, but the general idea is. So, I ask this? Is the Predetermined sequence triggered by what?
1. After a set number of spins, a random sequence is chosen?
2. After a % of bets Won by the player, a, "specific" sequence is chosen?
or something else like this? ie. Can/does the casino have a way to MAKE YOU LOSE?

Then I ask this? Is it ALL built into the RNG/Software, or is it Triggered by a Human? If it happens, What causes it to happen? You are betting on Red, I am watching you, and in my pocket I have 10 black numbers in a row, and I can toss them out any time i see fit to do so...

Is, Play for Free any different? Does it also happen there? or, is it the Opposite, where the RNG has a Trigger to let you WIN?

All therory are welcome. This is so interesting to me, so fire away with your thoughts. The casino, or software does not matter. If you think, "xyz software" does this, but, "mnb software" does not, post it. If you think this is true, post why? If you think it is just a bunch of hooey, post why?

Thanks.

#### rouletteguy

##### Experienced Member
I do believe some roulette software is rigged and the reason why is because we as roulette players are knowledgeable of many different strategies and systems and have employed them. With some RNG software it seems no matter which you choose your losing variance comes up within 2 minutes and then appears frequently.

As well long streaks of same color appear very frequently much moreso than wizard of odds claims is reasonable. You never have a session in which the zero doesn't appear and if you run a test flat betting on 1 color for 1000 spins your down more than 20% continue for another 1000 and it goes down further switch to opposite color and it goes down further.

It is a game of random outcomes but how can a player be wrong everytime and employ a strategy whose losing variance shows everytime within 2 minutes of starting?

Spin palace casino on free play I have on more than 1 occasion turned 1000 into 30000 as soon as switching to real money it no longer works.

As such I have made the switch to live games it is too expensive to determine which casino is fair and which is not.

I have had acceptable results with royal vegas and vegas towers but maybe it was my day for the RTP hits I'm sure others would curse them.

#### Rusty

##### Banned User - repetitive flaming
Hey winalot.
You know I will be the first to bash a casino or software but what you are describing is a rigged game.
I think it very unlikely (though it has happened) that remote casinos would want to use rigged software - perhaps an out and out rogue but not any casino with any kind of reputation.
The naysayers and those that push disinformation can point to this truth and then try to convince you that all online gaming is fair because rigged games of this sort are very unlikely to exist because of the reason above and these games if "fair" will earn money through the the house edge anyway.

The only thing wrong with this picture is that ignores that many rogue casinos exist (because to admit one casino cheats opens up the perception that they might all cheat)
It ignores that the nature of business is to maximise your profits and push the rules such as they are to their limits.
It ignores that remote gambling is very poorly regulated.

So all I can say is play at brand name casinos with software you know and at least you will get a "fair" game as defined by the Casino the software and their regulators who lets face it, are in business with the casinos - you won't though get a fair game as defined by the player.

#### GrandMaster

##### Ueber Meister
CAG
So, I as a software provider, want to build in a few ways to insure that most players will at some point Lose a lot of money when playing my game.
Just program the rules of the game correctly and the laws of probability will take care of the rest.

#### love2winalot

##### Dormant account
Hiya: I already understand that you do not, 'Need" to do this. I am reffering to 4ofaKind thread about how he is sure that this has been done to to video poker machines. Other players are sure the payouts for slots are lower than advertised. So why was it done to slots, if they did not have to?

Most common answer is, 'to make more money". If it can/is being done to slots, why stop there? A \$25 bet on a # that hits in Roulette pays you \$875. Why leave the table games out of it?

I don't see how you can say it happens at Slot's but not at the tables?

#### funeral979

##### Dormant account
PABaccred
Hiya: I already understand that you do not, 'Need" to do this. I am reffering to 4ofaKind thread about how he is sure that this has been done to to video poker machines. Other players are sure the payouts for slots are lower than advertised. So why was it done to slots, if they did not have to?

Most common answer is, 'to make more money". If it can/is being done to slots, why stop there? A \$25 bet on a # that hits in Roulette pays you \$875. Why leave the table games out of it?

I don't see how you can say it happens at Slot's but not at the tables?

Actually I think that table games are more susceptible than slots. Since the casinos hold on table games is much less than slots, it only makes more sense to fiddle with table games.

And I believe that every blackjack game I have ever played online is rigged in one way or another. More than likely it is built into the software. Some sort of trigger that occurs after you are up over a certain preset % on the session you are playing....and another trigger when your bet reaches a certain preset level.

This is just a theory of course, but consider this example: When your bets are \$1-\$19, you are playing with a normal 4 deck shoe....when you bet \$20-\$49, the software pulls 4 face cards from the deck, when your bet is \$50-\$99, the software pulls an additional 8 face cards, etc, etc....I cannot comment on how this might work with roulette as I don't play it.....but im willing to bet there is something sinister going on in the background.

Fortunately, I have played MG and RTG so much that I can get a feel when these triggers occur, and adjust accordingly.....

Maybe im just full of shit....but my gut tells me otherwise.

#### rouletteguy

##### Experienced Member
Actually I think that table games are more susceptible than slots. Since the casinos hold on table games is much less than slots, it only makes more sense to fiddle with table games.

And I believe that every blackjack game I have ever played online is rigged in one way or another. More than likely it is built into the software. Some sort of trigger that occurs after you are up over a certain preset % on the session you are playing....and another trigger when your bet reaches a certain preset level.

Maybe im just full of shit....but my gut tells me otherwise.

I don't think your full of it your right you do seem to just know when the game is about to screw you (and they don't even kiss you first) part of you wants to bet just to see it screw you so you know your right and the other tells you to back off. I prefer to back off and see yep it woulda screwed me.

#### Kenny Lingus

##### Tard Counter
Just program the rules of the game correctly and the laws of probability will take care of the rest.

This is true, all you have to do is look at Las Vegas to see where the laws of probability have built massive empires. However, there are many more examples of how greed has lead countless individuals and organizations to defraud the system for the sake of monetary gain.

Many times the schemes involved allow the defrauders to turn just the slightest bit of advatage into thousands or even millions. Just recently, a former Chicago-area congressman died, and the newspapers here rehashed exactly what Dan Rostenkowski had done to be convicted of stealing over \$50,000.00 from the rest of us: He stole postage from the congressional post office!

The point here is that not much needs to be done for a casino to gain a huge advantage over an unsuspecting player. Changing the expected return to a player on a game from 99% to 95% will yield a severe decrease in expected playthrough for the player, which obviously leads to a much greater chance that the player will bust out (and thus not cashout). On a \$100 deposit, the player would expect about \$5000 in playthrough before half of his deposit would be lost at 99%; at 95% the expected playthrough would drop to below \$1000 before \$50 was given to the casino.

I submit it does not take much deception to change the ROI downwards a few percentage points. Changing just a few of the overall outcomes into the casino's favor would yield that result on most games.

Even B&M casinos need government oversight to make sure they are not cheating players, and their games operate in reality; online casinos, on the otherhand, have little legal oversight, and we are left as players trusting that the virtual shuffles or dice rolls they provide us are statistically accurate.

But perhaps I am being overly skeptical. On the other hand, PT Barnum had a point.

#### manofsteel

##### Dormant account
As well long streaks of same color appear very frequently much moreso than wizard of odds claims is reasonable.

Probabilities and short term results won't match up. The Wizard would also tell you that you would need a sample of something like 1M spins to make this sort of claim.

You never have a session in which the zero doesn't appear and if you run a test flat betting on 1 color for 1000 spins your down more than 20% continue for another 1000 and it goes down further switch to opposite color and it goes down further.

Considering that zero on a single zero table in the long run should show up one out of 36 spins, this isn't surprising.

You should be losing money on flat betting red or black. That's the house edge. Though 20% down is a lot for 1000 spins. Do you have a log to back this up?

#### rockycatt

##### meistercatt
on roulette if the casino's had no fear they'd let more than one player at a time at the same game just as the live b&m casinos do

does any one know were friends can play roulette together ,or for that matter any table games

i had a casino by hoyle game once that let more than one player play at same time ,[all digital video ]

not to forget poker online thousands play at a time and you could have private password protected games
just like the poker houses on line

#### KasinoKing

##### WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
on roulette if the casino's had no fear they'd let more than one player at a time at the same game just as the live b&m casinos do

does any one know were friends can play roulette together ,or for that matter any table games
Yes, on Cryptologic Software (e.g. Intercasino) and on Boss Media Software (e.g. Gold Club).
Both these have multi-player Roulette, and I know Crypto have MP table games too (not sure about Boss).

You can also play "live dealer" games of course, at some MG and Playtech casinos.

KK

#### love2winalot

##### Dormant account
Hiya: Also, i don't know about now, buy several yars ago you could play at Public tables at William Hill. I did not like it, as it took to long for most others to decide what they wanted to bet.....

#### Cristian

##### Experienced Member
There are a couple of casinos ( sportsbetting websites ) that have live dealers . It`s still online gambling , but at least you have a chance to win...

I don`t want to talk about blackjack or any other software based card games because i believe that everything is based on RTP ( which is preset ) , all the crap that you see is just visual , doesn`t matter what you pick , what you chose to do . An online casino is itself a cheat by definition , some are just more greedy thn others . They all claim that there are no calculations made during the hand ( a blackjack game ) , but that is a blatant lie . You just have two buttons : Lose and Lose , doesnt matter what cards you get and if your hand looks strong , its just freakin math . When you are not suposed to win you don`t . I am sorry ya`ll online roulette players but a software based roulette is a joke . I`ve heard so many stories about people winning alot - playing online roulette ( with their so called systems = bs ) . Are you people out of your minds ?
Lets take this as an example : im the luckiest dude alive , so i decide to make a deposit at a bogus casino , lets say 500\$ . So i decide to go play some roulette and bet the max ammount on a number . Do you really think that any casino out there don`t have a system that keeps you from cashing out 10000\$ from your first 500\$ deposit ? Do you really think that they don`t analize your style of play and your tendencies ? Now im the luckiest player alive and cash out 10000\$ from a 500\$ ( maybe i can hit the same number 3 times in a row - yea in a perfect random system it is actually possible ... ) then i decide to quit playing there and never look back .If that will ever happen ( but it will not ) how will that casino recover their loses ? by messing with the numbers ofcourse . The only ones who win big are the ones who lose big , and thats a fact and there is nothing random about that . They know that you will come back eventually and some ocasional wins will come just to keep you happy for a while , yea `till the "takedown mode" comes around ( which is random - bs again ) . Crappy perspective huh ? well prove me wrong then ...
i`ve been reading stuff on alot of forums ... but usually i don`t reply to anything . What i did notice is that everyone come to the same conclusion ... eventually .
Its` just a matter of time ...

Ok ... on topic , no ! you don`t actually have a choice since everything is preset .

#### love2winalot

##### Dormant account
Crappy perspective huh ? well prove me wrong then ...

Hiya: I will highjack my own thread........hehehe. I just counted. I have 43 check stubs from Casino's, or Neteller. I have deposits into my Bank acct; from QT, Click2pay, and E wallet xpress. In the Philippines, i have a click2pay debit card with 6 deposits from the casino onto it. = "The Proof".....

In all honesty, I should have more, but once in a while, i get tired of grinding, and try to Win big, and NEVER have, and end up giving back sometimes over a \$1000.
However, that is always Profit, and not the starting bankroll. Every once in a while i will lose the starting bank roll.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the whole reason I started this thread, and asked the question. I could see if i was a maijor affiliate, or Webmaster, or had some connection to a few casino's, and they were, "Taking care of Me". ie. letting me Win.
But that is not the case. I just keep betting small, Winning Small, and when i Lose, I lose Small. 18 losses in a row happens. I laugh at the last 14-15 of them, as i am losing \$1 at a time.......

So, Captain Cooks, Global Player, Bodog, 3 Dice, 32 Red, Betvoyager, Club World, and RiverBelle, have All Paid me more than i have lost to them. So why have they not, "Flipped the Switch", to lose mode? I do Lose sometimes, and deposit again after that. "I" am the perfect target for a Casino that has Cheating Software, so why are they not using it against me?

If Software cheats. It does not matter what causes it to happen. x3 of deposit, or a certain % Won, or after a set amount of play time, or whatever. I have exceeded all of that on many many ocasions. + I Chart.

ps: Beore someone says, "Because you indirectly promote them on message boards", I never posted about most places i played at, and only do it once in a while here. And sometimes i post the bad about them.

Charting: Hmmmmmmm. Maybe they see, "A Pause", between each spin, and roll of the dice, and KNOW I am charting, and say, "Don't flip the switch, he will know"? hehehehe